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New calculator - no tsure where to put this
3

New calculator - no tsure where to put this

New calculator - no tsure where to put this

(OP)
I am in the market for a new calculator.
It has been several years since I purchased my current calculator and it is starting to decline.
So I have been doing some looking around when I have time and I ran across Texas Intruments Nspire series calculators.

Has anyone used these?
Are they more for the student than for real world use?
I have the basics from TI's web site but I have more questions.

Can you really do yor calculations on your calculator and save them and then down load to your computer?
Fully programmable?
There are some functions that if they work like I think they do would be nice.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I'm stuck with HP.  RPN has me hooked.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I am with you Teguci... using still the HP 48GX.  Not an easy transition though if you go to a TI for SE tests.   

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

CASIO FX 115ES. Works for me. Not too fancy, but has enough to get the job done. Oh, and works for the NCEES tests too smile

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

HP for me too.  had the 48G for a long time - now use the 35s.
 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I still have the same HP-15C that I got senior year in college, which was how long ago???  (many blue moons, fer sure)

An interesting choice is the TI nSpire CX, which is backlit color and way cool.  However, the CX does not have the TI-84 keypad option, if that's something you're looking for.  I've yet to actually do transfers with a PC, but that's what the software is for.  The PC emulator software can also do what the calculator does, and then files can be transferred with the handheld.  Bear in mind that it's quite big, although the CX is somewhat slimmer than the previous models.  The TI website has a fairly huge collection of user-submitted files, which are mainly school related, but there may be a few goodies there.  

One strong feature is the ability to document the calculations, since it does come with alphanumerics.  Its graphics are pretty good for graphing, but some of the controls are clunky, but that might be inherent to a handheld machine without a touchscreen.  The CX uses a touchpad, like on a laptop, in addition to click pad upon which the touchpad resides.  Makes for a slightly faster interface than with just the clickpad.  

There are two versions of each generation, to wit, the CX is the basic calculator version, while the CX CAS is the computer algebra system version.  The CAS has a bunch of symbolic solvers, i.e., factor (ax^2+bx+c), etc.

Either version has an interface to a TI module for digitizing measurements, primarily intended for students doing chemistry and physics labs, but clearly, it's a possible LabView alternative, although it's not clear the TI has seen that possibility.

In general, the nSpire is radically different than pretty much any calculator around.  TI has invested a lot of money to push this into the educational market, but at $150 MSRP, it's a bit steep, although you can wangle one on EBay for around $110 net.

One major change in the CX is that it uses a custom rechargeable NiMH battery; obvious, there are pros and cons with that choice.

I see it as having great potential, but it's always unclear whether the original visionaries and advocates at TI see the same vision that someone from the outside might.

I also have that Casio as well as the TI-30SX which would certainly also do well for most engineering calculations.  Either is substantially cheaper than the CX; I think the Casio was under $15 during back to school sales.  Nonetheless, the color display, yeah...

One thing that's annoying about all these calculators is that the "exact" mode, wherein answers are expressed as fractions or multiples of pi, etc., and decimal mode is that it's not easy to switch between the two modes.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Another HP-er.  Started with 45 and have had a variety since.  Settled about 15 years ago on HP 32SII.  When they started to go away, I bought a couple of extra ones so I would have them for a long time.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

HP all the way.  My brother-in-law used to be the head of R&D at HP, so I am also hooked on RPL.  

I still have my 41CX too, but the printer and card reader are shot.  Frankly, I don't know what I'd do without it.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

A diehard HP RPN advocate here. I've been using RPN calculators since 1990.  I'd recommend either the HP35s or 50g for a student depending on whether or not he or she wants serious programming capabilities.  For an actual engineer, I'd recommend the 35s because (I think) no engineer programs nowadays and the 35s is much handier.  It'll go in your pocket, has very long battery life, keys are very well laid-out, keys have perfect (to me anyway) travel distance and stiffness, etc.

The problem with _some_ 35s calculators is missed keystrokes.  The key will click, but nothing will be on the display.  I'd say mine misses a keystroke on every 3rd or 4th calculation I try, which is not good.  I've learned to watch the display to make sure everything goes in.  Mine didn't start doing this until I had it for probably about a month.  The solution is to keep your receipt and just send it back for another if you get unlucky and your calculator does this.  

From what little I've read about the new TI nspire, it seems to be student oriented.  All of my students have TIs and I'm definitely not impressed with their calculator punching abilities.  I've pushed the buttons on them a few times and it's no wonder.  They're like mush.  The calculators feel like toys.

I have a funny story.  I was teaching steel a couple of years ago and had the students crank through the AISC Lr equation on an exam.  Out of 38 students (all with TI calculators), only four or five were able to produce the number.  I'd say 20 of them had the right equation written down, but couldn't get it through the calculator.  I knew they might give me grief over it, so I timed myself with my HP48.  In three tries, I averaged 23-24 sec. and made zero mistakes.  There really is a difference between doing this sort of thing RPN or algebraic.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I certainly wouldn't argue against RPN.  The only reason I don't use my HP as much as I might is because I usually fire up Mathcad on the PC, and Mathcad does units, which eliminates ALL the unit conversions I'd otherwise have to do with just a calculator.

Algebraic calculators require a certain amount of forethought before attempting a calculation that might otherwise use parentheses.  Nonetheless, the new calculators, including the Casio and the TIs do have the ability to mitigate some of that with the "last answer," functionality, i.e., if you hit enter followed immediately by an operation key, the operation will use the last calculated answer as the operand.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I like TI's.  Why do they call it Reverse Polish Notation??  Sounds like an oxymoron to me??  Kind of like Army Intelligence??

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

"Reverse" because the operator follows both operands, like A B +, so it's a post-fix notation  "Polish" notation has the operator preceeding the operands, like + A B, i.e. a pre-fix notation.  Standard arithmetic notation A + B is in-fix.  

With the use of an operand stack, parentheses are never required, and there's actually no keys for entering parentheses.  For most problems posed with parentheses, you can start immediately on the calculation without even thinking about the parentheses, or whether you've nested enough of them, etc.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Once you get the logic Mike, RPN just comes naturally.  Been using it since 1978.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I use a HP 48GX and a TI-89 Titanium... one for home and one I carry with me... They are both very good and both good for programming. It's largely a matter of personal preference.  My personal thoughts are that HP is slipping a bit with their quality (based on a couple of laptop and printer purchases)

There is little advantage using the RPN notation, except that some calculations can be entered more quickly using RPN... for really complex stuff, I prefere the algebraic logic of TI.

It used to be with the earlier, slower calculators, that the stack architecture used by HP was faster... it mimiced the manner in which data was used by the processor.  Now it doesn't matter very much... my TI-89 has a Motorola 68000 processor, once a terror in the times of the Intel 80286.

Dik

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Could have added that the programming language 'Forth' used a similar stack architecture approach for 'real time' astronomical observatory programming when speed was a real issue...

Dik

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I'm intrigued by the thought of a calculator that can submit programming and output to a PC, that would be extremely useful. Heck, if I could have mathcad (or similar) on a calculator I don't think I'd ever write out a calculation again! If you do purchase one please let us know how it works.

I'd also love to replace my Casio fx-7400G PLUS (the ti-83's cheaper cousin).

EIT with BS in Civil/Structural engineering.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

My old HP-42?? was probably the best HP calculator ever made... lasted for a decade only to find out that HP stopped making them.

Dik

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

About 15 years ago I saw all the "youngsters" had 48gx calculators. I figured out that if they were cutting edge for new graduates, I needed to get on board. I bought one and love it. I only use it now for unit conversions and solving quadratic or higher order equations. Every time I push a key, it's one step closer to stopping working.  I now use a 35s for my everyday calculating with a 32II for a home backup.
Here's a link for what HP makes now;  http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF04a/215348-215348-64232-30821-215351.html The 50g looks intriguing, and I think I'll get one to add to my collection. Unfortunately, calculators are going the way of fax machines. I still despise Carly Fiorina for dismantling the calculator division of HP. But no one has convinced me to set up all my day to day calculations on MathCad or Excel.   

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

"Carly Fiorina"

I KNEW there was another to not vote for her in the last election winky smile

"if I could have mathcad (or similar) on a calculator I don't think I'd ever write out a calculation again!"

SMath Studio: http://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=561 runs on PCs, and anything that runs Windows Mobile.  Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a Java version.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

   I had a Casio FX4000P which I bought sometime in the mid-eighties.  Sometime in the late nineties, someone broke into my car and stole my spare pair of glasses and my briefcase containing the FX4000P.  The glasses were old, beat up perscription glasses of no discernable use to anyone.  The FX4000P, beat up as  it was, was worth maybe $0.75 Canadian.  The briefcase was new, and I had paid around $180 for it.  It was the only thing of value.

   The FX4000P was a fantastic calculator.  It had an eighty character entry window.  I could assign variables.  I could string operations together and recover my entry line.  Back before I had access to a spreadsheet, it was indispensable.  The Casio fx-991MS I have now, is not as good.

   On the other hand, I have not really tried to learn it.  Spreadsheets are so convenient, and you have a record of your analysis after you are done.

   If I ever see an FX4000P in an old junk shop, I will buy it.

               JHG

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Quote:

The 50g looks intriguing
I had one for about four months.  It's an extremely powerful calculator.  For me, it was similar to the 48 except much faster (like if you enter a symbolic algebraic expression to simplify, for example), but was slower for day-to-day calcs.  The enter key is in the wrong place and the keys are stiff and with a long travel distance.  After three or four months, I was still making a lot more calculator errors than with the 48, so I sold it and bought a 35s.  If you don't mind the keys, you might like it a lot.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I recently bought HP15C on e-bay. Probably the best calculator ever.  You can check here:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp15.htm

I also have new 35s that I like but I don't use any programing capabilities. I think now days that's completely redundant.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Good. 21 responses and not one addresses or answers the original question.

www.PeirceEngineering.com

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Quote:

Texas Intruments Nspire series calculators.Has anyone used these?
Just for PEinc's sake, surely someone used one of these somewhere on the Earth, so "yes."  LOL!  Sorry, just giving you a hard time.  

To answer the intended question: I can only speak for myself: No.

Quote:

Are they more for the student than for real world use?
Looks to be geared toward students, but you've probably spent more time researching the subject than I have.  I watched a demo video when they first came out and came away thinking I'd never want one.  I'm an HP fan, though, so am biased.  If HP came out with one with similar features, I still wouldn't want it.

Quote:

Can you really do yor calculations on your calculator and save them and then down load to your computer?Fully programmable?
I'm sure the HP50g can do this.  It's unbelievably powerful, has USB connection, etc.  I have actually thought about developing a vibration spectrum analyzer with the 50g as the base, and have no doubt it could easily handle the FFTs, IFFTs, digital filtering, etc. etc. that would be required.  Someone's probably done that by now--last time I looked was 2-3 years ago.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Another vote for HP 48GX.  I even have apps for my iPad and iPhone that emulate the 48GX keyboard.  Got to give TI credit though.  Most of my young engineers learned the TI keystrokes in high school and are loyal customers.   

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

since the thread has been somewhat derailed, I'll also mention that I am on the RPN bandwagon and have been using an HP48G for yrs.
I pray nothing ever happens to it.

I know the 48G was not allowed onthe PE test when I took it so I used an HP33s. It can be switched back and forth from RPN to standard. Theres no stack. So as I studied for PE and in my everyday work for about 3 months, I used the 33s in order to get used to it.

I'd say once you get used to RPN, you'll never go back

M^2-
Your bro-in-law have any 48G or 48GX laying around?  

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Toad... Did HP quit making the 48G/48GX?

Dik

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I don't think they have made them for a long time.
I tried to buy one about a yr ago b/c I thought mine was toast.
I almost passed out when I saw how much they were begin sold for online.  

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

dik, they stopped making the 48 many years ago.  They made the 49 for a few years (heard lots of negative reviews) and then started making the 50g about five years ago.  It's still their flagship powerful graphing calculator.  

The 48 can be had online for a reasonable price.  It doesn't (yet LOL) have the cult following of the 10, 15, 32, and 42.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Thanks... got 48G amd 48GX... both working well (one for office and one at home)... also carry TI in laptop bag... guess you can't have too many calculators. Didn't realise they were that old...

I liked my old 42S, smaller... and lamented the day it gave up... tried to buy a new one without success... guess the same thing will happen with the 48's...

Dik

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Do people still use the programming features of their calculator?  

I am a HP RPN believer, and remember my 41CV and the magnetic memory cards with hours of programming prep.  My dad got one before me, and it was revolutionary, his first "computer".  And I remember programming my 48SX for all my engineering classes.  I have a few programs on my 48GX, but my calculator has almost been entirely replaced my computer, and MathCad.  I use my calculator to, balance my checkbook, check other peoples calcs, and to calculate the geometry of brace frames.  

Someone else mentioned the HP 49.  It stinks, I had great expectations and was very disappointed.  I still have a few 41CV's.  I bought 10 from a closing engineer office 15 years ago, because I could not imagine working without them.  

Now these programmable calculators are not allowed in the PE exams.  

I have a display on my wall of my dad's slide-rules.  I should display the 41CV and accessories.  And maybe the 48's in a few years.  Maybe my kids will display my iPad and laugh about it too.   

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Oh, and in response to the original post...

Get yourself a simple scientific calculator, and a nice laptop computer.   

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Now, in order to continue to not answer the OP, the fancy TI NSpire has the following issues:
1.  Color Screen - Might be good for games but I have never needed (wanted?) color for my calculator.
2.  Digital imaging - I can't think of a reason to have this.
3.  Rechargable battery - TI says it will last 2 weeks with normal use.  AAA batteries in my calculator last longer.
4.  Calculate in style - No really, this is one of the features TI states on their site.  "The ladies will really dig you with this on your hip!" (I made that quote up)
5.  3D graphing - Never used this for my calculator for engineering.

I stated above that I am hooked on RPN.  How numbers are inputted is very critical to error checking while I am calculating on a calculator.  In the past, using the standard input methodology, I have produced more errors.  I have a higher powered HP for the use of simplifying complicated Integrals and matrices in rare circumstances.  Excepting those situations, I think I'd prefer having a simpler, RPN calcualtor not a more complicated TI with bells and whistles.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

You should go old school geek and get a vintage TI-92.  I'm still rocking the one I bought back in 1996. There is something about the way in which it displays inputs/equations (i.e. "natural display") and its powerful solver that keep it within arms reach on my desk.  For quick and dirty work, I rely on my Casio FX-115 that I used on the PE.  I don't trust my touch screen cell calcs one bit as it seems way to easy to wind up with input errors.



RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

1.  Color Screen - The color screen on the CX is a direct fallout of having a backlight.  The nSpire monochrome screen is often difficult to read.  The backlit display is REALLY nice, particularly for my old eyes.  I've got both an original CAS and a regular CX, and the CX display is way easily to read.

2.  Digital imaging - It's probably documentation, since the intent is to use the calculator for notations, explanations, etc.

3.  Rechargable battery - Only had it for about 3 weeks, but haven't used it quite to the level of "normal," but it's still claiming 100% battery charge

4.  Calculate in style - Yeah, that works GREAT!  not...

5.  3D graphing - I think that depends on what type of engineering.  There are a variety of disciplines where 3D graphing of say, laser beam profiles, is nearly mandatory.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I blew the budget in the early seventies when I bought an HP 67 programable calculator with the magnetic memory cards.  If I recall correctly, the price was $1,008 which seemed a bit much for a hand held calculator.  However, I wanted it and spent many late hours devising little programs to use in my practice.  I still have it hidden away in my archives.  The magnetic card reader ceased to function years ago.  Until then, I thought I was really using cutting edge technology.

Oh and by the way, I too am a fan of RPN.  It seems a shame that there are no new calculators using it.

Here is a short blurb on the HP 67.

http://www.vaxman.de/my_machines/hp/67/67.html

BA

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Yeah, what's up with those HP card readers?  My card reader attachment on my 41C is likewise tango-uniform.  Well, kind of unclear whether it really is, since I haven't convinced myself to get a new battery, and there's not enough power coming from the battery and charger to run the card reader, although it seems to give a good college try.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I haven't used a calculator for work purposes for years.

I can understand why people would like to have a calculator for quick simple calculations (although I find even those are easier done on a spreadsheet), but what is the benefit of doing complex calculations on a calculator, rather than a computer?

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
http://newtonexcelbach.wordpress.com/
 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I don't think there's necessarily a benefit.  The primarily desire, at least for me, is to have something that'll fit in my pocket that does what I want.  Ideally, I'd like a copy of Mathcad running on my iPod.  

As iPad-like devices get more capable, or laptop/notepads get smaller, they will eventually be capable of running Mathcad directly, and that'll be the end of the matter for me.  Right now, I've got an HP emulator and SMath Studio on my pocket PC, but the display is awfully dinky, and the controls are awkward.  If either could run on an iPod Touch, that might end things right there.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

My latest solution.  IPad with GO TO MY PC app. I can view and manipulate my PC from my iPad.  Not as efficient or functional as using my laptop.  But, pretty amazing in a pinch.  I can access my company server, programs, Outlook, etc, etc.  I can use Excel and Mathcad.  The connection works anywhere with my iPad Internet connection. Admittedly the interface is clumsy.  The Documents to Go app allows better manipulation of Excel files.  AutoCad WS allows viewing and notations on dxf and dwg files.  Other apps are available for steel section dimensions and properties.  And several apps that function similar to my HP calculator.   In a relatively short time my iPad has come a long way.  Eight months ago my responsibilities required my laptop and HP 48 (which this post has proven antiquated) to be my content companions.  Although they have not been replaced, many of my tasks now fall on this amazing new gadget. (including this response).

As I mentioned above, a laptop is the best portable calculation tool.   I have never found the time required to program a calculator to be time or cost effective, even for simple applications.  If portability and durability are factors, there are laptop options.  Maybe in eight more months I can leave the office with just my iPad.   

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I'm surprised by the amount of HP users, but they were the only game in town years ago.  When I was in school back in 2004ish, 95% of the class had some version of a TI and the rest (who were actually going for surveying) had the HP.  I myself have a TI-89 and love it.  I tried the HP with the RPN and couldn't get the hang of it.  I resorted to a Casio for the PE and SE exams, which did everything I needed for the exams.  I like the TI's because you can arrow up at a previously calculation and take that exact result and add it to another equation you are starting. It holds around 30 different calculations on the screen.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

My take is that getting used to the HP RPN is similar to getting used to drinking Scotch Whiskey.  Both require a getting used to but once you get hooked there's no going back.

HP48G, HP35s, and Laprhoig.....sigh.

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Quote:

I'm surprised by the amount of HP users, but they were the only game in town years ago.  When I was in school back in 2004ish, 95% of the class had some version of a TI...
Superior marketing and deal-making > superior calculators ?

TI catches people in the 7th or 8th grade.  Their calculators are good enough that there's little motivation to try something new.

I don't know how this came about, but our high school teachers actually require a TI graphing calculator.  Something just doesn't seem right about that.  I guess if HP could've done anything about it legally, they would've already.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

TI provides keystroke instructional calculators to high school math teachers.  A projector shows the student the keystrokes the teacher makes.  This is why the teachers "recommend" the TI calculators to the students.  And as others have mentioned, TI is at the very least adequate for most applications.  

Kinda like Microsoft and most school computers.  As part of their anti-trust settlement, Microsoft was required to provide millions of dollars in computer software for academic programs.  I am sure that was a tough deal to close.  

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Quote:

Both require a getting used to but once you get hooked there's no going back.
That's my experience.  I've seen a small handful of TI converts when their college calculator broke and we were able to talk them into hanging in there with an HP48G long enough to get used to it.  I've never known anybody to go back.

I think some people would have issues going to true RPN with a three or four level stack, though.  Bumping an entry off the top seems like a "bug" to new users, and I can see where they're coming from.  One man's feature is another man's bug LOL.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Quote:

TI provides keystroke instructional calculators to high school math teachers.  A projector shows the student the keystrokes the teacher makes.  This is why the teachers "recommend" the TI calculators to the students.  And as others have mentioned, TI is at the very least adequate for most applications.  Kinda like Microsoft and most school computers.  As part of their anti-trust settlement, Microsoft was required to provide millions of dollars in computer software for academic programs.  I am sure that was a tough deal to close.   
Makes sense, and about what I'd assumed.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

It's worse than that.  The TI graphing calculators are basically written into the California Algebra 1 text books.  My kid is slogging through the book, even as we speak.

And, I don't see HP having a site similar to education.ti.com.  And TI is hardly a newcomer, of course; one of their first forays into head-to-head competition with the HP35 was the SR-50, back in 1973-ish, which was the only affordable choice compared to the HP-35, when I was in high school.

One of the nicer bits of the older nSpire was the TI-89 keypad swapout, i.e., you could make the nSpire behave like a TI-89, since there was this perverse requirement in my son's high school to have a programmable calculator for one class, but a nonprogrammable calculator in another.  The current CX model of the nSpire has a "press to test" function that disables a selection of functions for tests that don't allow them.

TTFN

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RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Once you go RPN, you never go back.  My HP48 died, and was replaced with the 50G.  I do not like all the steps to convert units on the new HP 50 at all.  I still miss the plastic model I had in university, but that was lost years ago.

Brad

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

I was at a market survey a couple of weeks ago, and they passed out TI calculators to use.  

I asked, "What's this?", and proceded to do the problems by hand.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

After 6 months I WENT BACK to my Casio.
1)  The Casio does not take batteries.
2)  Its affordable at $10.  Buy several.
3)  With the dual line display, automatic recall of the previous answer and ability to edit the previous entry -- RPN advantages are no longer existent.
4)  Never understood why the stack cuts off at 4.

That being said it was great mental exercise learning RPN and was a good experience.  

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

For the HP48 - there is no stack cutoff at 4.

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Sorry.  I should've been more precise.  The RPL models such as the 48 and 50 have no stack limit.  It's the RPN models such as 35s, 33s, etc.  Don't want to give any potential converts the wrong idea!!

tumbleleaves, I believe you are a TI or Casio stock holder.  Going from algebraic to RPN/RPL had no inverse operation.  LOL  Seriously, if you don't mind, which model HP did you have?  Unfortunately, HP put out two unpopular models, the 33 and 49.

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

For most equations, the stack of 4 was all you needed...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: New calculator - no tsure where to put this

Mike, are there equations that cannot be punched through with four?  I don't think I've ever seen one.  My old mentor claimed that three is adequate, but I've never investigated his claim.

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