Colors on the "blue" prints
Colors on the "blue" prints
(OP)
I have an unusual question (as most of the people on the forum).
As someone who grew up in the times of pencils, paper and poor quality blueprints I am a firm believer into strictly black-and-white linework.
Nevertheless in today's world you can hardly find B&W printer or copier if you want to buy one.
So my question is: Does anyone see the advantage in using color in engineering (besides obvious applications for Maps and Architecture), and did anyone ever encounter standard regulating use of color. (Once again, not just color to indicate AutoCAD layers, but "final product" print actually made in color.)
I will welcome both: references to actual standards and opinions based on experience.





RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Then your color information will be lost for the receiver.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
So far two guys who belive in "paperless" as much as I do.
But even myself I don't remenber when was the last time I faxed the drawing. E-mailing PDFs on the other hand...
More opinions please!
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Wikipedia- " In AutoCAD usually parts to be printed in black are drawn in 1 to 7 basic colors. Color layer: Green-Center, Magenta-Measure of length and Blue-Hidden."
I have had to produce drawings in color to help production in assembly drawings, like full color PCB assemblies, or red for "important notes", but to all vendors I have only provided black and white drawings. I don't see an advantage with colors, as it makes everything else "unimportant" in the mind of whoever is looking at the drawing.
"I didn't read that because it wasn't printed in paisley."
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Very well.
I've seen colors used for relatively innocent things like company logo, or to draw attention to CAD-created "approval stamp", etc.
Also for separating "original" drawings created on plotter from "copies" created on copy machine. In this case mark or note was created saying something like "ORIGINAL WHEN RED".
But I also saw it used to indicate things like "Critical dimensions", which is getting too close to "Canned worms section" all by itself.
BTW, if anyone has actual copy of ANSI/ASME Y14.2 Line Conventions and Lettering, does it say anything about (NOT) using color?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
When my 2D drawings are sent out electronically, I assume the recipient has a crummy printer. I figure most machine shops have black and white 11x17" printers. Everyone else has 8.5x11" black and white ink jets. I prepare my drawings accordingly.
When I prepare my drawings for carpentry at home, I use colour. I think it looks better.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
There are two levels of colour here.
First, you can define layers, and use these to control colour and line thickness. At home, I like to make my object lines black, and my dimension lines and text, medium blue.
Secondly, you can set your SolidWorks views to shaded.
I have been using shaded views on preliminary drawings lately. If I have defined my outline as a transparent blob, this is the only way to communicate what I am doing. I have access to a colour printer. I can save JPEGS and create online notes in HTML.
When I have completed the design, I can, and usually do, convert everything back to conventional line drawings. If nothing else, current drafting standards are based on black and white line drawings.
If you are going to do colour layers and lines, you must set the background screen of your CAD program to white, or some reasonable facsimile of white. Yellow lines are very prominent on your black screen, and almost invisible on paper.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I once worked with a department that insisted their drawings be color. Once other departments started faxing, copying, scanning, whatever, the details were lost.
Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Point 2: If another designer has a different background color to improve contrast on his system, because the light on his station is different than yours, or if he is a little more blue/green colorblind then you are...
Point 3: Keeping three cartridges functional in your printer has just tripled your printing costs. Paperless is a nice concept. How many have made it work?
Point 4 (And this is selfish.): Ever try to get the military to shift gears or standards just because it improves engineering practice? There is some O-1 in an office at TACOM who is too dim to adjust away from the Book. Last month, I had to explain, (AGAIN) that a split lock washer depends on applying longitudinal loading, not digging in to the surfaces, to lock. They are still demanding hard copy files for storage in various contracts.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Given the complete lack of compatibility between different 3D CAD packages, or even versions of the same package, hard copies stored somewhere are a good idea.
When you select colours, you should select ones that contrast with the background. Hence, my remarks about having a white screen background, rather than a black one.
Some people are colour blind. Another case for drawings being readable in black and white.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
- NEVER send dwg.s to any state or federal agent for permit that have been plotted in color!
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Thank you very much everybody!
Looks like I didn't miss the memo and the colors didn't make it to the mainstream yet.
11echo, thanks for very interesting note. I understand government requires black or blue ink when filling the forms. You made me realize that ALL the documents you submit are expected to be easy to scan / copy / fax, etc., so colors are probably out of the question when it comes to "official business".
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
So I always use a separate pdf printer/generator and the 'print all colors as black' option in CAD.
I've actually had vendors that got the colored version ask me for black & white.
The colors in the CAD actually make sense and help with use when creating the drawing, but when they go to using the drawing B&W still seems superior.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Matt Lorono, CSWP
Product Definition Specialist, DS SolidWorks Corp
Personal sites:
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Matt Lorono, CSWP
Product Definition Specialist, DS SolidWorks Corp
Personal sites:
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources & SolidWorks Legion
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Been there, it's not good...a nightmare!
Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
When you think about how much colour helps in real life it is hard to see why more people don't use colour on prints. Take a wiring loom in a car as an obvious example following the blue and red wires is not that difficult, following the light grey and the slightly darker grey would be near impossible.
As far as I am aware there is no standard yet and different people would take this to different levels and it is not hard to imagine you would end up with some truly awful drawings, but it is also hard to see there are not advantages as well.
I guess like most things in life it is not black and white but more shades of grey.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
In NX, depending on how preferences are set, a section taken through an assembly of parts will show any interferences in "red".
ted kralovic
VisVSA, NX-6, Macbook, iPhone 3GS, among others
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
ted kralovic
VisVSA, NX-6, Macbook, iPhone 3GS, among others
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
We left all part geometry in black, but used a dark green color (which still printed black on a B&W printer) for all of our dimensions and dimension lines. All notes, centerlines, etc were in dark blue (which still printed in black on a B&W printer). The clarity of the print when looking at it in color vs black and white is night and day.
In that case, the argument that 'My suppliers or customers or shop floor can't print in color, so color is bad' doesn't really carry any weight. If they print the document, they're no worse off than they are looking at any other drawing in their shop. However, if they look at the PDF we send them, they get the added clarity, which is substantial.
Color can also help hilight revisions on a drawing. If you have revisions in red, the eye is immediately drawn to what has changed since the last rev. Once again, the color is not a replacement for rev bubbles or rev blocks, but it adds another level of clarity to the drawing if the person looking at it is lucky enough to be able to look at the print in color. If they can't look at it in color, they're no worse off than they were with any other drawing.
I can't really see any reason against using color other than a bit of a stodgy old-guard attitude of 'I've created and looked at drawings for 30 years, and they've always been in black and white, so they should always be in black and white'.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
A basic problem with sending computer files around is lowest common denominator. If you send something the other guy cannot read, either time is wasted finding something he can read, or he does not read it.
As noted above, I assume people have 8.5x11" black and white ink jet printers. I actually do not know if such a thing exists, but lots of people have cheap black and white laser printers. You cannot assume larger than 8.5x11". You cannot assume colour. You cannot assume laser.
Most fabrication shops seem to have 11x17" printers, now. As far as I can tell, they are black and white.
If you send drawings to me at home, I can handle your colour. I cannot handle the tiny fonts on your E sized drawings.
I remember back when you could not send spreadsheets around. Lowest common denominator will always be a problem when you share computer files. The technology will improve, and the lowest common denominator will get more capable, but by then, you will have new bells and whistles to try out.
The other issue with colour is that lots of people out there do not understand contrast. If you are printing in colour, set your CAD backgrounds to white. People with black backgrounds keep selecting yellow as a bold colour.
If you search around the following two websites, you will see discussions about colour...
Web Pages That Suck
Tips on Designing Cost Effective Machined Parts
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
For those in doubt as to the value of colour, you need only go as far as training material and text books. Which do you prefer from a learner's perspective, black & white text & drawings, or colour 3-D graphics?
BTW, I experienced similar grumblings from "board draftsmen" when they had to shift from using a pencil to using a mouse ... no way this would make them faster ... no way it's as accurate ... no way it can keep up ...
Why are people in technology so afraid of taking the next steps forward? Dunno.
Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc. www.tec-ease.com
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I really like SolidWorks' executable Edrawings. I save the thing. You load it and look at my 3D model. Since the file is executable, you don't need the edwg software.
Problems:
- Some people where I work have amazingly old computers, lacking speed and RAM. The Edwgs are barely executable.
- Everyone is fighting desperately to stop virii. Executable attachments to email do not make it past corporate firewalls.
System administrators are not knocking themselves out to enable my favourite toys.A lot of people use their computers for email, word processing and some web surfing. They do not need high powered, bleeding edge machines, and they are not assigned them. Back when I was a kid, office machinery was expected to last twenty years. I think we are headed back there. It is easy for us CAD types to create files no one else can read.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Here is a technology story.
I started "on the board" in the very early '70's at a large power-generation equipment manufacturer. Even on the Apprentice Program, I was forced (!) to become a member of the union.
The company planned on installing a Gerber Plotter for the express use of plotting points. At that, the union shouted "STOP! WE'LL LOSE JOBS!" (Heh-heh)
We all know where that went. Plot/print on!
ted kralovic
VisVSA, NX-6, Macbook, iPhone 3GS, Garmin 765T, Garmin Forerunner 405, Garmin eTrex Vista Hcx, among others
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Unfortunately, this became a self-fulfilling prophesy at some companies. It can be much quicker updating board drawings and associated documentation than it is for some CAD drawings/models I've seen.
"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Now with the original team long gone, and revision being outsourced to clueless CAD-monkeys... Well, it may take some time
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I can revise 1 to 100 parts and every assembly drawing will instantly update as well. Let's see your gray haired pencil pusher do that. Back in the day when we had draughting tables (and were owned by a proper British company, the Prince of Darkness, a moment of silence please) most assembly drawings were NEVER brought up to date to show component revisions. You were just supposed to imagine what the assembly would look like with all the new parts in there. Never mind interference studies and the like. Say what you want but CAD has improved productivity and reduced mistakes tremendously and our documentation on the floor is up to date.
I still have no use for color drawings. That's for the marketing guys with the not so sharp crayons.
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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I'm just ribbing you in a good-natured way, but those last two sentences sound strange juxtaposed to the rest of your comments! Some day people may be poking fun at the "old" B&W drawings.
John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems
http://www.gdtseminars.com
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Follow up to this "Here is a technology story.
I started "on the board" in the very early '70's at a large power-generation equipment manufacturer. Even on the Apprentice Program, I was forced (!) to become a member of the union.
The company planned on installing a Gerber Plotter for the express use of plotting points. At that, the union shouted "STOP! WE'LL LOSE JOBS!" (Heh-heh)
We all know where that went. Plot/print on! "" then.
Now,
I retired 2 years ago. Later I was asked to come back to work for a 60 day period, to help out with a job breaking down component assemblies into detail drawings, and CNC files to be sent to CAM. This was to be a non union job in the office.
The trade union pitched a fit because journeymen had been trained to take drawings and write CAM files for the machines, and this would impact their jobs. How things have changed, or not.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Drawings are a finely tuned highly developed precise language to communicate design requirements. There are many ways to show what is important and what is new or changed without resorting to color. The problem with color (as pointed out else where) is when the inevitable conversion to black and white occurs (and it will when the boss runs it through the copier or fax machine) the color is gone and some lines and text will be fainter and harder to read because it WAS IN COLOR.
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems
http://www.gdtseminars.com
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Peter Truitt
Minnesota
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Only the engineering department had access to the originals, everyone else could print a black and white PDF or photocopy on a black and white copier. It was not entirely waterproof because people sometimes just ignored it. It did provide some control however.
Dimensions and hatches were also in colour but that had no significance other than being easier to distinguish from the part geometry.
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Some people are color blind. One of our top electrical guys is colorblind and sometimes has trouble with schematics etc. that are color coded.
Until we can be sure that people will only ever get color 'copies' of the drawing and can see those colors then I think sticking to black and white for final prints makes a lot of sense.
Sure having annotation a different color from geometry in the native CAD is handy, but it should be secondary to the other formatting that works for monochrome.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
By no means am I saying that everyone should be required to use colour prints, but they are a useful tool in many situations, and are growing in popularity and value. To automatically write-off a technology because of a potential issue with a small percentage of the constituency seems inappropriate.
Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc. www.tec-ease.com
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
When we first started doing this we got shop floors input, they could have illustrations as either colored 'model views' or monochrome 'line drawings' and we prepared examples of each. They opted for the monochrome version.
Now we do use color in these documents in text for different call outs (preemptive quality measures, assembly steps, post assy inspections/checks) but they are accompanied by different symbols so that if printed out black and white it's clear what is what.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc. www.tec-ease.com
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I am not sure how many people who suffer from this crash at every set of traffic lights they use, not many I would guess, but to the rest of us the colours make it easier for the mind to quickly take in the data, the same goes for green start buttons and red stop buttons, or wiring looms or any number of other example. We simple take in data better in colour, so why not use it?
If you don't print in colour because someone might be colour blind then why not print all word documents in Braille as the person may be totally blind?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
As I mentioned before, drawings from our CAD printed 'gray scale' can be barely legible since some of the default CAD colors convert to a fairly pale gray. However, if you use the 'print all colors as black' option they come out as true black in the appropriate line weight.
However, when people save a drawing from our CAD down as color pdf and then someone prints it they don't seem to have the option of 'print all colors as black' on most viewers and it gray scales and becomes difficult to read.
As to the traffic lights and stop buttons etc. most of them have some other function indicator than just the color. For traffic lights it's the position, for emergency stop buttons it's usually a label... (Yeah you could get silly and worry about color blind folk that are illiterate but I figure that goes beyond a 'good faith effort'.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
The other issue here is that if colour is not reliable, we need some other way to communicate the information. In drafting, we use line thickness and style.
One of my pet peeves where I work, is that people are loading CAD viewers and printing drawings. They have not configured the CAD viewers to control line thickness. It is hard to tell dimension lines apart from features.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services www.profileservices.ca
TecEase, Inc. www.tec-ease.com
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
8% of the population (mostly males) suffer colorblindness (wikipedia). Personally, I don't think of that as a small percentage, at least not if somebody was doing bomb disposal (cut the grey-ish wire!). Seriously, adding the ability to still read/decode the drawing if printed in b&w, by use of secondary code or lineweight or whatever should be considered, or even a note that the original is printed in color with the colors labelled (yellow = THIS, etc.) should be considered to preserve the intent.
I still hate the default yellow color for dimension text in AutoCad. The yellow just disappears when you view the drawing in paperspace or light-colored background, and if printed in color by mistake it just goes away entirely.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Frank
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I learned a lot about AutoCAD's multiline functions, the existence of which I had never before suspected. With them, you can construct a polyline that actually comprises some number of parallel individual lines, using contrasting colors to depict stripes and adjacent dashed lines to depict tracers.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
I notice most of the conversation is still concerning resolution issues of colour / grey scale reproduction on paper. Probably a few industries will never move beyond that, but most are. Colour will be ubiquitous as original design data in any form is accessed by more than the designer; the resolution of black & white - grey scale - colour on paper will become irrelevant.
On to the colour blindness issue.... It's truly misunderstood. The fact is people with this issue have a lifetime of coping skills, much more developed and multi-variate than simplistic position of a light, a printed icon.
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
Color can be used as long as you don't NEED it. As certain examples have showed before. Dimensions could be put in another color to differentiate them from the rest of the drawing, but the color should be picked in a way that it is still readable when printed in greyscalse/B&W or when read by colorblind people.
NX 7.5
Teamcenter 8
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
(Or according to some RAF bomb squad sources you may just be in America.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Colors on the "blue" prints
The point I was trying to make is that, even though color blind people have several coping skills, if your rely solely on a difference in color to give your information, there's no way to cope for that.
NX 7.5
Teamcenter 8