"Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
"Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
(OP)
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"Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
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"Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......""Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"(OP)
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RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
the right person, with a degree in basket weaving, with the vision and the drive to make that vision a reality is the right person. the guy running the show, IMHO, needs to be able to attract the right kind of people, to have confidence that they are following the game plan, to have confidence that they are capable and honest. I expect him to be expert in one area of the enterprise, beit engineering, finance, politics, ... but not all.
in my experience engineers can be great at making things, ok at seeing what things need making, scraping by at finance, and failing (generally) at HR. history is littered with examples of great engineering enterprises by washed up on the shores of Failed Island.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
I usually hate the whole corporate MBA thing, but it does seem to allow me to tinker with complex numbers and pV diagrams and still get paid.
- Steve
LinkedIn
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Regards,
Mike
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
But with the way personal departments are, we are just bodys.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Then, control was acquired by some shady stock-market tyes who couldn't pass the security and exchange requirements to go public with the company they had, so they got control of the company since with was already listed.
Under this kind of managment, capital investment in the company stopped along with growth. But the engineers kept making newer products by buying obsolete test equipment and pushing it beyond spec through careful use and modification. This allowed the company keep its size and still offer some new products. After about 8 years, the take-over group sold the company to a fortune 50 company that built itself solely by acquisition. This new company was run by MBAs, and used lots of MBA straight out of college. Within 5 years, they got rid of, laid-off, or drove away all (100%) of the engineering and technician talent (about 40 people). Every time a bad business decision was made (and there were plenty), they got rid of people (i.e. senior engineers). Within 7 years, this 25M+ company was reduced to a remnant of the original product line with no real new products, that today are consolidated with similar old products from other destroyed acquisition companies.
And the engineers? A top few were hired by a small engineering competitor who in a matter of 3 years has gone from a 2M company to a 12M company, and are continuing to grow fast and re-dominate that market niche.
Moral - MBAs will destroy a business faster than take-over sharks.
And me? I got wiser, and found engineering work in another industry at a growing privately owned company (i.e. not traded on the market) that is not run by MBAs.
However, it is run by sales types, but that's a whole nother issue.
Oh, you sold warp engines to a customer even though we don't currently have that as a product? Of course, you know, the main problem is there is no source of ready available anti-matter to run it! How do I know that anti-matter is unavailable? - call it engineering intuition. Yes, I know the important thing is to get-the-sale, but is it wise to do so if we don't actually have a product? OK! OK! I'll see what I can do in 6 months. Oh! you want it in 3 months because that's when the next industry show is!
Beam me up Scotty - there's no intelligent life here.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Engineers, even the ones in so-called purely technical roles, need to become better businesspeople. They need to do so both for their own sake and for the sake of their profession. Is an MBA a good tool to help them do that? Dunno- never took one. I suspect it once meant a great deal more than it does now. The performance of the engineers I've met who have done MBAs hasn't really sold me on the value of the MBA - most of them were just weak technically and took the MBA as a potential way out of the hell of doing a job they weren't very good at.
What you can do without are shareholders who have no interest in or knowledge of your business. I watched a publicly traded former employer hack its own limbs off one by one in a bizarre Monty Pythonesque attempt to raise its share value, I and have no interest in going through that again. Unfortunately, doing stuff on a really large scale usually means that you need the capital that you can raise only from otherwise disinterested shareholders, public or private, and all the problems they bring. Fortunately, size and scale doesn't impress me much.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
I, too, am both.
However, I have known a few power hungry engineers too. Just a more common animal with MBA's.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
For most engineers, it's enough of a challenge to be proficient at their field of expertise. Most of the things that make for a good engineer, don't (IMHO) make for a good business leader.
There are two different fields (product development and business development) both require time, energy, and talent to produce good results. I think, similar to many posts here, that the problem with MBAs is not that they can't manage a business, but rather they manage the business with a different agenda to what the engineers want.
just as there are good engineers and bad MBAs out there, there are also (shock, horror) bad engineers and good MBAs.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
- Steve
LinkedIn
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Whether or not it's a struggle just to handle the technical side, basic business sense is a mandatory skill for engineers, and one they frequently lack in my experience. No engineer can do without them entirely and be anything other than a potential victim or a liability to their firm, or both.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
So, I'm not convinced that most Engineers lack basic business sense etc.
However, the 'sense' they have doesn't seem to match with the short term chasing quarterly returns to keep the stock market happy business model that appears to dominate.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Marketing looking at alternite customers, no matter how it effects the real customers.
Operations wanting to buy the most expencive equipment so they can reduce maintenance.
And the business types wanting to play king of the hill.
We seem to get cought in the middle. We are blamed for problems, and get no credit for the lack of problems.
And HR can't seem to see the difference in job functions (no wonder they can't seem to fill some engineering jobs).
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
There was an interesting anecdote in the book about how they demonstrated that the Boeing B-17 was superior in WWII Europe, to the Consolidated B-24. The group leader, Tex Thornton, later to run Litton, was a chain smoker. He flew across the Atlantic in a B-24, and he was not permitted to smoke, due to the B-24's tendency to leak fuel and blow up. I have read other accounts of B-24s, and this was a problem. There was no detailed analysis of what happened next. Presumably, B-24s had higher casualties than B-17s. It was possible that the boss had made it perfectly clear how the numbers were expected to turn out.
Of course, Thornton was justified in questioning the battleworthiness of an aircraft you cannot safely smoke in.
I strongly recommend the book.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
That'll get you a rap on the knuckles these days:)
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Thornton did not die of lung cancer during WWII.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
No smoking in the weld shop these days.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
but somehow we've strayed from the thread ... again !
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think I'd be awesome running the show but given the diverse spread of opinions I've seen on this site over time on relevant matters, I'm not convinced all Engineers would necessarily run the US govt better than the current bunch of lawyers etc.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
How good was Jimmy Carter? He was an engineer too.
Then again, the only president with an MBA was George W. Bush. I think the engineers are ahead.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Irrespective of any individual's own capability, collectively this was a total failure. I have seen it fail before even without this formal organisation. But don't get me wrong, I have seen some pretty disastrous failures when other disciplines gain an ascendancy. So it isn't simply that engineers aren't suited to dominate, as a class, though there are good examples of engineers who have created and managed top notch companies, these are often the exceptions rather than the rule.
Ditto inventors. They can't let go. "This is my design and this is how I want to have it made." I have personally lost time and money trying to work with some of these types. No matter how much you tell them that this is how their idea should be packaged and this is where the money is, they can't accept it. It's their baby.
And of course, we all know the dangers of letting the bean counters run the show.
But sticking with engineers, amongst whom there were no star performers and where there was no understanding of all the other necessary skills and abilities to produce a good product:
Example 1:
A water meter manufacturer and been around for 200years. A leading supplier.
In 1963 they produced a new water meter, and engineering had a field day.
The resultant design was based on a mix of existing manufacturing methods and some new but included all sorts of novel features. All good features that in time were adopted - by other manufacturers.
The clients referred to it as a "Rolls Royce" of water meters. They bought the competing design. Cheaper, less filled with novelties and produced using innovative modern assembly methods which the design and manufacturing methods were developed to support.
Example 2:
A leading supplier of niche market high spec sensors.
Engineering rightly respected for that but when tasked with producing a more general use sensor, couldn't let go of the specification enough to deliver. Sure they designed it and produced it, but the sales of the niche market high end sensor still outsold all the supposedly low end sensors combined.
We can all find examples in any industry of the converse, of course, where engineers or whoever, sees an opportunity and can't get management on board.
This is when you find escapees from the original company setting up shop down the road and doing what they want very successfully.
All too often engineers want to make what they want to make and think it sales' job to sell it.
Sales keep selling what clients want to buy
Marketing is needed to bridge the gap.
It has to be a collaborative effort managed by someone who can manage, whatever their discipline.
The right product is the one the client will buy.
Sales will report wish lists from clients and try to sell stuff the company doesn't make because they think that once hey have an order, some one will deliver the goods. They do this because, sometimes, it works.
Someone has to decide what the market needs, can be manufactured and will make a profit.
Engineers can say what they can make.
They often don't have the ability to determine the difference between what the clients likes and what he will pay for.
All the different departments and skills have a role.
In the end it really shouldn't matter what the origins of the decision makers so long as they can make enough good decisions to outweigh the bad and keep the company afloat.
To allow any form of unbalance means the number of bad decisions often outstrips the ability of good decisions to compensate.
And good managers are always in short supply in all disciplines. In some other ares, it may be difficult to find good engineers, good sales people and so on.
But that is the real world and it doesn't necessarily mean failure.
It means your business model (and your product) has to be robust enough to work even with bad managers, poor finances etc etc. and most companies do manage this for a goodly while.
Companies with good managers, excellent standards in all disciplines are almost as rare as hens teeth, otherwise, they'd clean up (and they do exists time to time).
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
I often think that we really should go towards competence based government, i.e. to get elected a party has to propose who is going to be in charge of what portfolio and what their qualifications are for the post.
Just a dream of mine, politicians that actually understand the things that they are in charge of!
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
I have VOIP with Comcast. People have let me know they can't get through so they call my cell phone. I called Comcast and let them know. They said they'll investigate. What happens? I get a call from Comcast asking if the problem still exists and if it does, they'll turn it over to their next level of troubleshooting. OK, uh..... Did they do any troubleshooting? No but if I'm still having trouble, they'll send it to the next level of troubleshooting. I asked them to please do so because this has been ongoing for a couple of months and I received another complaint this week. And if someone calls and can't get through and doesn't call my cell phone, how am I to know the problem continues?
And, rather than call on my home line, they call my cell phone. The young lady was hardly understandable. We have so messed up good systems from the past it is not funny. This kind of stuff is a huge time waster for many people. You have to touch things, simple things, multiple times to get resolution. And why? So a company can save money but waste its customers time. It's one reason I have really scaled back on purchases.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Bruno Coatings L.L.C. http://www.decorative-concrete.biz
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Why comcast?
The popular choice appears to be Skype.
Like most things, the users of Skype get free internet calls to other Skype users but you can't communicate with other VOIP. (In the cell phone world Vodaphone at last allow me to use my "free" minutes to call any other cell phones, no matter what the provider which caught me by surprise, but then we do live in a confusopoly.)
I also have BT's softphone because it came with my internet service. I use it hardly at all because I really don't know anyone else in my circle who has it.
My brother in law had his VOIP from his provider in LA and junked it as soon as he downloaded Skype.
I can't think of any problems I have ever had with Skype.
The only concern I have with any of these services, whatever they are, is that sooner or later they will figure they have about as much of the market as they can get hold of and that its time to start milking the herd for money.
I was an early user of Plaxo until they made that choice, stripped out most of the key features from the freebie version and expect that everyone will be happy to buy the "Pro" version.
I do most of my international business calling via Skype to Skype but I was surprised to discover some companies don't allow it.
Go figure.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
If beancounters were the CEOs then the company would have no vision and die.
Just two thoughts.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Its PC to PC.
Of course, I'm assuming you have a certain bandwidth to play with each month.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Does anyone even want to get me started on this topic...?
Not that I am in any way bitter...
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
SNORGY, go ahead, start typing........... I was the brunt of arrogance today and just listened. I haven't reacted and will think long and hard about doing business with them.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
My MBA was the hardest endeavor i've done in my life. Harder than engineering and I come from a 5 year engineering school.
The problem with engineers is that they do the grunt work but their lack of social skills hurt them at the time of promotions. It hurt me for sure.
My two cents from having worked in different consulting firms is that engineers as a group do not have a good grasp about business strategy (my own observation). The managers of the firm keep doing the same strategies year after year and when the market tanks is too late. Niches are a killer...
Good engineers can make great products, however, excellent engineers will make products (or a service) that people want.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
The best and smartest client I ever had was a person with a P.Eng. plus (*GASP!*) an MBA. But, that person never let one degree (with its flavour) get in the way of the other degree (with its flavour).
That said...
If *all* a person has is an MBA, *my personal experience* is such as to suggest that those types of folks need to find other businesses besides engineering to "lead". Engineering should be run by engineers.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
An Engineering degree is an indication that you are capable of learning some truly esoteric things, but mostly it is an indication that you have the ability to approach problems logically.
An MBA is an indication that you can master the range of skills that are required to run a business.
These two skill sets are not mutually exclusive. An MBA that cannot approach problems logically will always make a lousy line (or engineering) manager. An engineer who is unable to run an economic model or evaluate a supply chain or treat people as humans instead of cogs will always be a lousy line (or engineering) manager.
Someone who has demonstrated both sets of skills has a really good chance of success in management even if they lack formal credentials in either area. I've worked for MBA's that were effective managers. I've worked for engineers that were effective managers. I've worked for people without either credential who were effective managers. The conversed of all of those statements is also very true--I've seen MBA's, engineers, and "others" who were horrible at managing people, projects, and companies.
A degree is just an indicator of a persons ability to show some level of mastery of a specific list of esoteric subjects. Beyond that, it is just a piece of paper.
David
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
runruin a business."RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
See, a lot of MBA's have undergrads in non technical areas. They go to a top tier school such as Harvard to do their MBAs. They then get hired at the big banks and a bunch of them do not have solid finance, accounting, and/or investing fundamentals and that is where the fun starts. Sure they are smart, and because they know they are smart they get cocky. Mistakes happen.
I recommend the book When Genius Failed about Nobel prize winners from MIT that were running a hedge fund. Smart guys with super high IQs. They calculated that their worst case scenario had a probability of .0000000000000001 chance of happening(do not remember the exact zeros). They had to be bailed out by the Fed and banks during the 1997 Asian contagion because their worst case scenario came true.
Morale of the story. Some MBAs are super great and some are bad. It happens in every professional field. IQ and preparation alone are not enough. The intangibles matter as well.
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
In college the students who couldn't cut it in engineering tended to migrate over to the business school. Business courses are relatively easy in comparison to an engineering curriculum, and many of these technically challenged students ended up with an MBA. They couldn't earn an engineering degree, but they ultimately ended up with something far superior: having the engineering professionals in their companies reporting directly to them.
Nobody ever said that corporate cultures were supposed to make sense.
Maui
www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
I've seen engineers do really stupid technical things. I've seen MBA's do really stupid commercial things. I've also seen engineers who were effective leaders (the best boss I ever had was an engineer and now she's an HR manager) and MBA's who could effectively manage a technical group. Either degree is proof that you could more or less master a predefined set of material. That is all. A banker who turns his finance department over to an untested MBA is behaving in an irresponsible manner. That doesn't say that the MBA degree is worthless, just that it is not reasonable to call it a qualification.
David
RE: "Fire the M.B.A.s and let engineers run the show......"
Not that I am in any way bitter...
Regards,
SNORGY.