×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?
7

Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
I want to.  I just don't know if I should do it as a surprise, or let them know ahead of time.  I can't count on the boss.  The bad manager is still sore about being proven wrong and the HR weenie just goes with the side with the power.  I've got no allies on the inside and want to bring in my own team and I'm willing to spend some of my paycheck to do it.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Wow.  Don't know your situation, but you've got my sympathies.  Unless you've created such a situation upon yourself.  "proven wrong" ?  Only a good thing if done delicately.

I've certainly been treated like cr@p before by companies, loser bosses, and HR Weasels, but I'm not much for THAT level of confrontation.  I can't imagine that it would ever end well.  Having said that, unless you really have some serious axes to grind with the company or people that borders on the criminal, I'd not.  I'd certainly go prepared with evidence, proof, documents, and a list of witnesses for anything in particular you think may come up in such a discussion.  Perhaps even wire yourself with a recorder...seen it done before to our Boss-Who-Was-Satan, and it was useful.  Just the **rumor** that he might be recorded fixed his hateful unprofessional behavior.  Some may argue the legality / ethics of going "wired", so another approach is to set the recorder right there on the desk and politely ask if He/She would mind you keeping the conversation documented.  That'll squelch all bad behavior, and provide the proof for anything ugly that must be done later.  Or it might also get you fired.  In an "at-will" employment environment, you've got no rights or privedges whatsoever.  None at all, unless you can document criminal intent (and probably be required to prove it in a court or accept a settlement to shut up about it).

Remember the Kryptonite Keywords & use them like a pocket nuke:
harassment
hostile workplace
discrimination (race, age, gender, education level, almost anything applies)

Rotsa Ruck, tread lightly.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Don't do it unless you already have your next job lined up, or you've got enough put away to go get your masters degree.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

2
If you're at that point, it's gone too far.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

you might be better off bringing a tape recorder. don't bring an attorney

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Until I say your name Cass, I was goung to make a comment about the labor portion of the title.  But I think not now...  bigsmile

I would agree with the aspect of having another job offer in the wings before you do this, and I would ask, would you really want to work for this boss after you do this?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
There is no question that things have gone too far.  I have already resigned myself that I will likely be terminated.  My relationship with this company started downhill after a false accusation about not following company protocol and sending repair details and specifications to the contractor.  In fact I had followed procedure, and produced the emails and correspondence with my senior project manager to back it up.  But  the Bad Manager kept fighting saying things like he never got the emails, I should have called him directly, I should have made sure he had completed his work sufficiently, etc.  I countered with, you did get my emails, you responded to them, just not on topic.  I didn't call you because I thought it was better to walk down 4 desks and talk face-to-face.  You did review this, here are your markups.

I thought the episode was over, but this particular incident keeps coming back as if I had been found guilty of some gross misconduct.  When all was said and done, after witnessing the Bad Manager review my work, he made a minor editorial change.  I wouldn't even call it a correction.  In the end, there was a lot of turmoil over no real harm.  No mistake was found and there was no gross violation of company protocol.  Done, right?

Yesterday during a discussion about what projects are ready to go out, I was asked yet again about the "Protocol" job and what was taking me so long to get the report finished.  I said the report is done, it's BEEN done.  It was put on hold pending a review of an alternate contract that the owner sent to the Bad Manager to sign.  It is Bad Manager's responsibility as the PM, author, and negotiator of the contract to review the changes, not mine.

But I offered to review it for him and asked if I was to set aside my own projects and put the contract review at the head of the queue.  I am fairly certain I asked without any kind of sarcastic tone.  I didn't feel sarcastic at the time.  I simply wanted to know what was most critical to them to complete first.

I got YELLED at for asking that question, "You should know this by now, you have enough experience, you cannot ask this question, we don't just fire people randomly for one mistake, etc".  I waited for the head spinning to stop I'm sure looking like the OMG cat, then said, calmly, "I take it that you want my contract review before the end of the day, with enough time to look at it before signing it and sending it out.  I will put Project Desperation aside for now and will review the contract and you will have it before noon.

The minute I got back to my desk and checked emails, the HR weenie who had been in the discussion had demanded that I make myself available for my 6 month review which is to include the boss, the Bad Manager and the HR Weenie.  That's the same lineup that fired our accountant last week, the second accountant since I started working here 7 months ago and the 6th in less that 3 years.  I liked the accountant and got along very well with her.  She was a straight-shooter and very honest.  She never sugar-coated the news and never lied about where the budget was headed.  She was my strongest ally and now she is gone.

I asked my brother what he would do and he suggested hiring a videographer.  He said something about another human set of ears, a witness around changing the dynamic of the meeting.  He also had a list of buzz-words, including hostile work environment.

I can honestly say I have never seen a more dysfunctional organization.  And for anyone not familiar with the OMG cat, see link.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Love the OMG cat!

Check your state laws to determine whether you can carry an audio recorder in your pocket.  My state allows it and no one has to know but the person with the recorder.

I wouldn't walk in with a labor attorney but I would talk with one before that day and have my thoughts lined up.  As professionals, we do not have much recourse.  I would take meticulous notes during the meeting, too.  And ensure you email all relevant documentation to a personal account prior to that day.

It sounds like you are working in a hell hole and the company has more problems than you can correct.  Furthermore, as an engineer not in management, it is not your job to correct their problems.

It also sounds like the HR weenie is overwhelmed with the office politics.  In my past jobs, screaming was never acceptable especially over something so minor.  Screaming is out of control and fear coming through loud and clear.  At least, to me it is.

HR will never be on your side unless your side is the company side or what they perceive as the company side.  When the HR weenie stops taking notes on a sensitive subject, note it.

Good luck!

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

First, get all your personal stuff off the office computer, and all potential evidence backed up, at home.

You may be escorted from the meeting directly to the door.  It certainly smells that way.

Use a digital voice recorder with a fresh battery.
For this upcoming meeting especially, I'd put in on the table and turn it on without comment.


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Bring a tape recorder in your pocket (can't be used in court in some states, but you'll have the convo on record for your lawyer). You can always recount from memory and your memory will be much better if there's a recording. Keep your cool and try to get through the meeting.

If you're still working there after the meeting, I say that you hunker down, be a good little soldier in your current job, and get as many resumes out to as many recruiters as you possibly can as soon as possible. That sounds like the company from the south side of heck; get outta there.

As Mike mentioned, get all of your stuff on your computer backed up (including emails!) as soon as possible.

This might be helpful: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.html

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Cass...unless you intend for that to be your last day, don't bring the attorney.  If you know it's headed for an HR claim, then having the attorney could be a plus, but the attorney can't be a witness....the tape recorder could be.

Insist that the review be videotaped and that you be given a copy of the videotape with all rights of reproduction and use.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

In some states it is illegal to tape ANYTHING without the consent of ALL parties.  That can really get you in trouble.

Check it out.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Cass....one other option...bring a court reporter to the review.  I did this once for a pre-roofing conference on a large school project.  Had no claims thereafter for confusion with specs, instructions, etc.

If you really want to intimidate, have the court report swear each of them in before starting.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Flash's link implies you can't tape in CA.  I would still tape it with my phone though, just know you can't be caught doing it, or use it anywhere.

CA is a will to work state, they don't need a reason to let you go unless their own company policy requires it.  Bringing an attorney unfortunately implies some form of guilt.

Good luck.  There are so few managers in this world who understand that the pyramid is actually upside down and the manager is on the bottom.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Hugs, Cass. I know it took a while to get this job but this too shall pass... get out, give yourself some recovery time, and find out which firm your friend the accountant went to!

You never know.  Maybe the universe is yelling at you that there's a way better opportunity for you, but you can't find it while stuck there.

Good luck!

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

2
Use two audio-video recorders. One for display on the table, the other secreted in a pocket ... to record the table one being thrown out the window.

Good luck.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Use this:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/c521/

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Be very careful about all this. The engineering communities tend to be small- and people do talk. If a termination goes badly, it will be remembered and could make getting a new job more difficult- especially in today's market.

My advise is to be big about this. If you are terminated- don't argue (they won't change their mind, so no point), let them know that you wish it would have worked out differently and good luck to everyone in the future. Depending on how this is handled, they may become a reference for you in the future.
  

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Casseopia,
I seem to recall you're west coast. Based on the time-date stamp of your posts, are you posting any this while on the office computer? Probably seal your fate, although it seems that fate is predetermined.

As bad as it is there, I go with the gerneral consensus and wouldn't bring a labor attorney.  Good luck with the review, I feel for your situation.

IC  

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Life would be easier for employers and employees alike if employers got a better grip on "at will" employment.  The can terminate you simply because they want to.  That's the only reason they need.

Wouldn't it be better if employers simply dumped employees without all the drumming and drama?  Employers feel compelled to generate cause where none exists, causing much pain.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

If you are in California, there is a significant departure from the employment-at-will doctrine for the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. Essentially, this means that there is a "just-cause" standard  prohibiting termination made in bad faith or motivated by malice. If they are trying to fire you than they must prove that you were not performing your duties and one way to do that is to place records of non-performance in your personnel file. You have the right to review that file and dispute it. I would suggest you ask to review your file asap and then refute anything in it that indicates you are not performing.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

TheTick,

In Montana, employers cannot fire employees at will after a 6 month trial period. Employers earned that law, after lawmakers observed a trend that mining companies would terminate an employee six months prior to them retiring, and this would allow the employers not to pay pension. (They had a rule that said if you were terminated prior to retirement, you would not receive a pension.)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the concept that if you are doing something incorrect at your place of work, your employer should tell you what you are doing wrong and give you a chance to correct it first...as long as what you are doing incorrect is not also illegal.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
none of my posts on an office computer...all done from my personal laptop

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

So what happened?

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
Short answer:  My review was postponed until next week.  Still dodging the bullet.

Long answer:  My review was rescheduled because of some turmoil on a different project.  Since mid-June, I have been requesting that invoices for a couple of small jobs go out with the work (sketch and letter).  I kept sending reminders about the critical nature of the invoicing on this particular and unusual pair of projects.  At the beginning of July, they fired the second accountant in 7 months, the 6th in 3 years.  So I sent my invoicing requests to an anonymous 'accounting' inbox and waited for someone to pick up the ball.  I can't generate an invoice.  I don't have access to the accounting system.

Today I got an email from the Client saying that unless she had our invoice by 10 am, we would not get paid.  So I sent that on the the three musketeers (Company Owner, HR weenie and Anon. Temp Accountant) with a note that I could not possibly add to it to make the message any stronger.

I was called into the bosses office, with the HR weenie, where the boss proceeded to scream at me for lacking communication skills and that was the reason I did not have an invoice.  Anon Temp. Accountant was MIA.  

I kind of expected the attack so I had my stack of emails and notes of conversations begging for an invoice ready, and copied.  After the HR weenie searched the accounting files, she produced the invoices that had gone out by mail to the Client's home office in Michigan.  So I suggested that they send invoice duplicates via email to the Client who is on location in San Francisco.  I also asked why I was never told that the invoices were sent to the home office.  As PM, I am usually required to review and sign invoices before they go out.  But I never saw them and the only initials were my bosses and the HR weenie's.

For every defense I had, the two of them found something else about me to blame.  I was so frustrated by the abject insanity that at one point I looked at the clock and said "it is after 9 am.  If falling on the sword is what you want to get a couple of invoices into this Client's hands by 10 am, then I will accept complete and total blame even though of all the people involved, I am the only one who does not have access to the accounting system.  And as far as communication skills, I will gladly admit that I am more polite than forceful.  But at least I communicated.  I made numerous attempts to get someone with the resources to respond, and no one did.  No one even responded to any of my emails with the information that the invoices had been sent to Michigan on July 5th although they knew.  Of the five people who could have given me that information, not one of them sent me an email, text, or stopped by my desk with a note.  Nothing.  And I had walked in with 15-20 emails and written notes of five conversations all clearly suggesting that I had no idea that the invoices had even been prepared.

I fully expected to be fired on the spot.  Not for anything I did, but because it was painfully obvious that the mismanagement here is rampant and thoroughly engrained and I had the audacity to bring proof with me to my own dressing down.
 
At one point all I could do was sit in my chair and sob.  I couldn't think of anything more to say.  So they suggested I reschedule my review for next week after they had a chance to review my 'evidence'.

 

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

It's dangerous for me to judge since I'm not in your office, but reading the thread gives me a sense of the tone of the discussions (and I reserve the right to wrong on this, as always...apologies if so):

Hard line, black & white, technical/professional, via impersonal email:

"Bill.  You need to send another invoice the Z Company.  This time, it needs to be sent to their SanFran office, not the Michigan office.  I told you this eight weeks ago, and I've got a stack of emails proving I told you to do this.  This is YOUR responsibility, not mine, and you need to do this.  This is critical and needs to get done now."

Softer approach, with extra effort to do face to face in his office door:

"Hey, Bill, need a favor.  Is there any way we could get another invoice to Z Company?  It seems that one was sent a few weeks ago, but mistakenly was sent to the wrong office in Michigan.  They're ready to pay RIGHT NOW, but for some reason the money guy is in SanFran.  Sheesh, it's never easy, is it?  What do you say?"

I've had to school my lovely wife on such matters before.  Unfortunatley, it is CULTURAL thing about which little will change:  many males don't react well to assertive females, no matter how professional they are.  The character "Alice" in the Dilbert strip is a perfect example of this phenomenon.

Yeah.  They're dysfunctional idiots who should be run over with an old truck and stabbed with wooden stakes.  So you need to help them be better dysfunctional idiots.

The bigger question:  why are you wasting your time there, and getting all aggravated in the bargain?  It seems like you have your documetation to prove (to your next client/employer/self) that your reputation for professional behavior is intact.  That's all that matters, what those chowderheads THINK means nothing, absolutely nothing.  Drop 'em, move on, live your life.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Why on earth would you put up with that crap, just for a job?

In this case it's no longer even for a job- it's for a chance to sue them ultimately for wrongful dismissal.

Not worth it.  Get out.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

When it seems that everyone is personally against you and incompetent, including the owner, it is probably a good time to take a step back and see what it is about you that makes people behave in this way, either that or just find another job.

If you find another job and everything is fine then it is probably just they they were a bunch of jerks, if the same thing happens again, it would be a really good time to take a deeper look at yourself.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
tygerdawg,  If I had known that the fired accountant had prepared the invoices, and that my boss had signed off on them, my reaction would have been entirely different.  Sending the invoices out without Project Manager (me) review and sign-off is a violation of company protocol.  Because I had never received the invoices to review, I was working under the assumption that the shake-up in the accounting department had delayed their preparation.  What is more shocking is that in all of my emails where it is obvious that I have no idea that the invoices had even been prepared, that the 4 or 5 people who could have provided information to the contrary said nothing.

ajack1, I do have a pretty good idea of why things are the way they are, but have not said anything because it is too specific and I thought there was the possibility of repair.  I will say that there is a cultural component.  I might be in San Francisco, but I was born in New Orleans and raised by gentrified, well-to-do Southerners.  My boss was born and raised in Taiwan and spent a portion of his youth in New York City before moving to the SF Bay area.  You probably could not get more divergent styles of communication.  The staff is largely very young, female, and Asian.   Draw your own conclusions.  Not everyone is against me.  Several of my coworkers offered their support and everyone has at one point been the lightning rod for the boss' unresolved childhood issues or possibly mental disorder that I am sure fuel his outbursts.

I put up with it out of service to my Clients because when I leave, the Clients I brought in I fully intend to take with me.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Sounds dysfunctional beyond repair.  Either find a way to tolerate the environment or go (or be ejected).  Sometimes there's no win.  The best you can do is bring your best attitude, and consider it an exercise in character.

Don't underestimate the power of changing your response to these goons.  If they see they are no longer getting under your skin, it will affect how they deal with you.  They are not playing fair or judging you by your professionalism or competency.  Defending yourself on those levels will not prevail.

That pretty well sums up my last employer, though not nearly as extreme as yours.  Now, it seems I am at the beginning of a new, blessed era in my career.  After a series of brutally dysfunctional employers, I have landed with an outfit that treats people well AND needs what I have to offer.  Two months in, haven't had a bad day yet.

Praying for the same for you.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

cass, I am Southern.  Once you get out of the South, manners and mannerisms are different.  I've lived in other areas of the US.  I've found people outside of the South that still fight "that War."  I chuckle until someone threatens me with, "We whupped your _ _ _ in that war!"  Yes, I've heard it in the workplace.  smile

Sounds like people there are miserably incompetent.

It's them not you.  But, you know that already.

I hope your situation is resolved soon!  Don't let them get you down and continue to take the high road!

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Sounds like your clients are not necessarily being well served, despite your best efforts.  So are you entirely sure it's still about them?  

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

There are two sides to every story - usually three actually.

Take a look at the third one??!!

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
Speaking of three sides, I've been doing some reading lately about the concepts of the Karpman Drama Triangle that describes the dynamics of relationships and disagreements.  The major players are the Persecutor (Boss), the Victim (me) and the Rescuer (HR).  The players will seek to change roles in order to further their own agenda.  As a victim, I suppose my inclination would be to become with the Persecutor by turning on the HR weenie, or the Rescuer, by bringing the interests of the Client into the discussion.  I am rescuing the Client who has replaced me as the Victim.

I understand all of these dynamics.  What I don't know how to do is get the other players to stop their games and act like grown ups.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Quote (cass):

What I don't know how to do is get the other players to stop their games and act like grown ups.

You cannot achieve that goal.  That is not your responsibility but theirs.  You are only accountable for your conduct and how you handle unpleasant situations.  All you can do is your best to point things out as diplomatically as possible.  If they don't understand, be patient and see how things work out.  That is, if your mind is not made up on departing.

Playing games is a way of life for some people.  It's how they get through life but they never see it.  It's like an habitual liar never seeing the habitual lies and that it's their crutch to get through life.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

It's impossible to know, from outside, what goes on inside any outfit.

You stepped into a snakepit.

I fail to understand why you persist in looking for bunny rabbits there.
 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Business question to the peanut gallery:

If they claim they're firing her for cause instead of laying her off due to the economy, is Cass still eligible to collect unemployment?

If not, I think Cass should co tact an attorney immediately.   

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Depends on the cause.  Fired for underperformance = eligible.  Fired for misconduct = not eligible.

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

(OP)
I've had direct experience with firing employees for cause, from the employer side.  I had documentation of numerous instances of theft by one employee.  I even had video.  When she applied for unemployment after her termination, my company submitted the form stating she was terminated for gross misconduct.  We were interviewed by the Unemployment office.  We provided the proof, and yet were told that the former employee would still be eligable to collect her checks.  Maybe things have changed with the economy and the unemployment office is looking for any reason not to pay.  I don't know.  All I know is that my direct experience tells me that the EDD does not necessarily go by the book.  I guess I may find out soon enough.

The recently fired accountant said she suspected that they were trying to develop a case against her.  She contacted the EDD (California's Unemployment Office) and they told her that the company has a note in their file as 'high turnover' and that they exceed some benchmark the EDD uses to determine if a firm has more than expected lay-offs or terminations.  Apparently that is the case here and the EDD not only recognizes it, but they have apparetly increased what this company pays in taxes to near punitive levels.  I should call the accountant and see if she is getting her checks.  It's been about 2 weeks.

And if anyone out there is terminated 'for cause', never assume that you cannot collect unemployment.  You may have to fight a bit for it, but in general things go the way of the employee, not the employer.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

When I was terminated for cause in Texas in 2009, I was told that I would not be eligible for some level of unemployement because the company said it was for cause. I was lucky that I picked up a contract job 3 weeks after termination, so I never pushed the issue. When my contract ran out in 2010, I was eligible for the state maximum until I started my new job Tennessee 9 weeks later. My only problem with Texas was that I didn't file for 2 weeks and they would only pay from the date you file, not the last day of work.
 

"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

RE: Anyone bring a Labor Attorney to their own review?

Thanks folks.

Now I get to Pink Star Cass in her own thread.  :)

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources