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Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong
6

Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

(OP)
Just turned a client away (at his mutual suggestion) who has "been building these things this way for years."  Told him that his glulam posts won't resist the lateral wind as currently sized and refused to be swayed by inertia.  This is on top of informing him, previously, that a 50% increase in soil bearing capacity is not legit for sizing footings (this is based off of a PE stamped "standard" calculation).  As much as I hope the "next" engineer explains the error of his way, I know all too well that some lonely 70+ year old engineer out there might not do his due diligence.  What are your thoughts and experiences?

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Engineers who are willing to compromise their ethics and consider never getting caught is appropriate risk management come in all ages, shapes and sizes.  "Plan stampers" also come in all ages, shapes and sizes.

I agree with you and applaud your stance to an ignorant client, but age has nothing to do with such practices.  Check your state board's reprimand history....new and old alike are there.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

good for you!

would it be too pissy to advice the local planning approval people, in case someone else approves this ?

i have a similar customer, who's "done it this way for years" and thinks i'm an unnecessary evil, 'cause the authorities want detail reports on his projects.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

There is a certain possibility that the client is right and that you are overlooking some better way to approach an issue, so proceed cautiously on stuff like that.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

jstephen,

You may, in fact, be right, but then he should be able to articulate that and not just say, "I've been doing it this way for years".  My response to that statement now is quite simply, "Well, maybe they've never actually seen their design load yet.".


Teguci,

I also applaud you.  We are the design professionals, not the contractor's monkey.  If they have a good way to do something, then I'm all for listening, but at the end of the day we need to be comfortable with the decisions that we make that impact the safety of the public.  You just can't compromise on that.   

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I am fighting an ongoing battle of this type with regards to timber shoring. The industry over here has been using timber sizes that cannot be justified and I am always hit with that arguement.

This is why engineers exist, to protect clients from their own ignorance.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

none so dumb as those who are sure they're right ?

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I join the chorus in congratulating you.  

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I work on the client side and love to be told I'm wrong.  It's happened many times.  It's just wonderful when consultants consider my comments and prove that I'm off base.  And when I'm not off base, it's also wonderful when a consultant sees and understands what I'm saying.  Stick to your guns, but also try to really understand what the client is talking about.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

My responses typically are:

   After 20 years of doing it this way - you should know better

   Well, you have been doing it wrong for 20 years.
 
   Time to go back to training.

BUT YOU BETTER BE DAMN SURE YOU ARE RIGHT!!!

Because you will be eating a lot of crow and lose any respect you might have had with them.  Having grey hair also helps!!

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

graybeach- you are rare and the type of client we would all want to work with or for...

I was lucky to get exposed to this very early in my career, and my boss taught me how easy it is to say no to these types of guys. Way easier than dealing with their BS. Anyone asking how much you charge for plans or to stamp something is not worth your time, he does not know why he needs you and may never, so why bother. Even if they agree to your fee, these types are usually the hardest to collect from and will be a pain in your butt the entire project, second guessing everything. There is a big difference like you guys have said between "can we do it this way, what do you think?" and taking an argumentative stance.

Doctors don't like patients who come in loaded to the gills with WebMD info, and think they know more than the guy who went to med school and has been practicing 30 years ago. They want their patients to trust in them and heed their advice, and not be stubborn in their own ways...

I have never understood the statement "This is the way I have been doing it for XXX years and..."

So we never want to improve? No new knowledge has been gained in construction in the last 5, 10, 20 years? We have learned from Hurricane Andrew, Loma Prieta, and tons of research and experience...

Does the contractor still use a hammer and hand saw and mix concrete on site by hand? We still using horses? Its completely illogical. Our field is an ever-improving and ever-changing science, and those at the forefront understand that. Its a lot harder to convince your local good ole boy contractor type of this mindset though...



 

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Heard it too many times...  nosmiley

A lot of building codes have come and gone since Hammurabi.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I had this same conversation (on a very cordial basis) with a client not long ago.  The structure was a wood framed building with laminated columns.  I was convinced that the bearing capacity suggested by the client/contractor were far too high.  

We agreed to research the issue.  He eventually found justification for the bearing pressure increase.  It was by reference in the IBC to an Agricultural Engineers handbook for wood framed buildings.  I did not believe it at first, but discussed the issue with the local code office and found that the contractor was in fact correct.

Long story short, I was wrong.  The contractor at first did not know why what he was doing was justified, but was able to find it after doing some research.

My lesson learned was to not dismiss anyone, until I have proved to myself that they were wrong.  

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I agree with your stance.
I think your stance is the norm not the exception.
I have had the same position for 50 years.
I do however have distain for your remark "70+ year old engineer out there might not do his due diligence"
I have always don due diligence, oh by the way I am 71 years old
and I have been both a contractor and a structural engineer
 

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

(OP)
Ron - just picking on older engineers who might not be concerned with a wind event that will only happen every 100 years or so.
RB1957 - I don't think local planning should act as the control.  The buck needs to stop with the license.  There are times when we need to be sure we are right.  Those times usually come with a higher budget.
JStephen - The client may be right, but more likely he has been lucky.  I am a pretty creative engineer and I spent some time arguing with myself before telling the client what options he has.
Lion06 - I could make a good monkey too!
csd72 - star for you for fighting.  If the codes have too high of a safety factor then fix the codes not your calcs.
frv - Thank you.
graybeach - I am on board with that.  You remind me of the Johnson Wax Headquarters load test F L Wright had to perform.  I try to approach structural issues academically.
Mike the Engineer - I am working on the grey hair!
a2mfk - I agree we are moving forward.  Just got the latest IBC and ASCE 7.  Supisingly even bigger!
msquared48 - Hammurabi was a performance designer.
OHIOMatt - Great info (star)!  Just went through the ASAE EP 486.1 (the old agricultural handbook) which does allow a 300% increase to the presumptive bearing!  If only I had known about this when I was designing spread footings for 2000+Kip loads!  OK, kidding aside, the Agricultural handbook applies to the wood design but arguably does not apply to foundation footings.  The scoping is clarified at the beginning of Chapter 23 (Wood) and 18 (Foundations).  Apparently this is a throwback to the UBC which allowed the 20% increase per foot of depth or width.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

(OP)
bylar - knew I'd get flack for it and deserve to.  You are obviously not who I was referring to.  Even so, I am referring to a licensed engineer with experience, who operates on his own (probably without insurance) and who isn't concerned about an event that isn't likely to occur within the rest of his lifetime.  This could be a 30 year old but probably not.  Even so, "He who is faithful with little is faithful of much..."

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Quote:

What are your thoughts and experiences?
My experience: That it's easy to be embarrassed in situations like this.  There are multiple design approaches for many problems, and you might be "seeing" it through the lense of one of the (too?) conservative approaches.  If you show the problem to another engineer, he might see deeper into the behavior and say that you're being too conservative.  The client might be closer to correct.

That has happened to me before.  Not saying you're doing this, because there's not enough info to judge, but just a thought.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Glad you took the high road.  

I think a lot of us have been in similar positions.  I know I have with a client that I wanted to impress in order to get larger jobs, but I told him an answer he did not like and so he went to another engineer and got the answer he wanted.  

I agree with some that there may be some "rationale" that another engineer uses that gives them a comfort feeling for stamping the drawing, but I will not stamp them if *I* do not have that feeling.  We have gone through too many tests and too much training to squander the oppurtunities that we have and wasting them by letting a client decide what we feel comfortable with.

I imagine it does not help that I am a young engineer (30) and so look inexperienced to a client because of the lack of gray hairs.  However, I have been through my fair share of trials and tribulations and am more than competent.  I had hoped that when I got my S.E. that would help to ease worries, but it doesn't.  So as a word of encouragement, keep on pushing on and doing what is right... eventually, your clients will notice and realize that you are doing what is best for them as well as yourself.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Most of the "stamp anything" people I have encountered were not 70 years old, Through a fifty plus year career, I don't remember a single one. Plenty of middle aged and younger ones stamping pre-engineered buildings designs.

Have you actually met one such or are you PO'd at an older guy right now?

Signed, One PO'd 76 year old.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Pad-

I think he made a false generalization more to make a point than age discrimination (as he stated previously).  

I have met an older engineer though that had no business signing and sealing the documents he did.  I have also met some middle aged and young engineers do the same.  Likewise I have met very competent engineers that span the age spectrum as well so your generalization is just as derogatory as his.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I think many of us over the years have had clients like this.  We usually get away from them.  I'm leary of a lot of the younger engineers and their cavalier attitudes.  Recently we had a meeting of many of the structural designers (civil and S.E.'s) in our county and one S.E. was complaining about some new provisions in the 2010 CBC and said he was going to keep doing it the old way.  One of the participants was the local county building official who mentioned that might be a problem.  (After all, this engineer's plans had to pass through his jurisdiction.)   

I specifically remember a contractor who stated that he had 27 years experience and declared that the 150 year old URM building we were standing in was safe.   This was after I had mentioned that the front of the building was sinking into a old creek and red termites had eaten at least one wythe of a three whyte wall.   The project is in legal limbo as we speak.

I'm particularly incensed when I walk on a job (completed and signed off) and find that the project is not built per the drawings; that the drawings weren't completed; that the calcs (ALL done by a computer program where the dead load only case had forces running in all directions) weren't completed, that the inspection was awful and that the owner never let the EOR come on the site during the construction and seen the same things that I did.   Building torn down.

Within the last year, I've turned down three projects where there was "interesting" aspects that I would eventually end up being responsible for.  Each has a separate story as to why we decided not to be involved.  I've also decided to let two clients go because it's too hard to deal with them and their problems (These are manufacturer's who don't read the customers specifications or just plain don't know the implications of the customers requirements!)  I also don't wish these clients on another engineer.

Old guys can still have passion for structural engineering.  I'll be 79 next month.

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I don't think anyone is saying old guys don't rule at engineering, so don't get your grey feathers ruffled :) JUST KIDDING!

Just like any other group of people, there are good and bad apples. We all have learned from the elders of this message board, had older bosses or guys at work who mentored us, etc. We are all grateful for the generation ahead of us.  

But there is a smidge of evidence that some engineers, in the twilight of their career, may not use their best judgment at what types of projects they become involved with, or sign and seal plans they are not in responsible charge over. I have not experienced this first hand as much as read the Florida Board's violations website and newsletters. There is a disproportionate amount of "low PE numbers" on the list. My guess, as well as some others I have spoke with, is that our state has a high number of retirees who may:
a) come from another state and not be familiar with our code or high wind loads
b) not keep up with current standards and practices throughout their retirement
c) not give a crap, stamp trusses or porch additions or pool cages or whatever until they get caught, and then burn their license and flip us a bird from the golf course....

Why not, the average fine is like $1000??

And I am plucking more and more grays every day................

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

Teguci:
Good for you. I recently worked for a firm, where we had a large project and the Architect kept changing the structure.  It started out as wood frame building and ended up as a wood framed,metal stud framed, steel frame, sitting on precast planks on top of a masonry/cast-in-place foundation, with a few piles thrown in, conglomeration.  The site was located in a high wind region. The one thing that stood out was when the Arch wanted to use gyp board as the sheathing for the all shearwalls. This building was 5 stories! He cited IBC and the old "We've done this before in a high seismic." I was floored, when the bosses gave in on that. Felt a surge of relief when I was laid off.  

There are days when I wake up feeling like the dumbest man on the planet, then there are days when I confirm it.  

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

(OP)
271828 - I understand that I do not know all the answers, but my client didn't have any other than "we've done it that way for years."  AKA "We've gotten away with it for years."

Epitome1170 - I am working on my gray hairs too.  


Paddingtongreen - Those middle aged and younger engineers you mentioned are eventually going to be 70.  I don't understand why you choose to be PO'd.  As for me being PO'd at an older guy...yeah, I'm PO'd at the older engineer(s) that allowed this client to "build these things this way for years."

Oldrunner - I look forward to being in a position where I can turn clients away because "its hard to deal with them and their problems"!  I also hope to have a passion for engineering when I am 79.

a2mfk - note c is kinda what I was getting at.  I seem to remember hearing that Florida added requirements to their licensing to try and discourage the transient retireees from being licensed.

nuche 1973 - Would the gyp walls be considered "Intermediate" Light framed walls sheathed with gyp or "Special"?  For seismic category D the Architect could squeeze the 5 floors in the 35 ft limit?  Of course for Categories A - C you can always make it work.  How many layers of 5/8" gyp can you install at each wall?

RE: Told a "built it this way for years" client he was wrong

I usually say "it might've worked so far but based on the design code it doesn't so I can't do a calculation to show that it does".

Incidentally, is the 50% increase on bearing capacity in the context of wind loading?
One of the British Standards (BS8004 I think) allows an increase of bearing stress below the foundation when wind load is included.
I think the rationale is that foundations usually fail slowly and wind is usually a short term effect, however there are caveats (e.g. wind load cannot account for more than a given % of the foundation load, and you can only increase by 25%, not 50%)

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