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How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?
2

How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

(OP)
I'm about to move from a shielded intern environment to a position with more responsibility and I'm worried I'm gonna get things wrong.

Simple examples of this are messing up a callout on a drawing, or perhaps miscalculating some parameter. Being humans were going to mess up something time to time but I would like to avoid these situations.

I am meticulous and double check my work from time to time but double checking work takes a lot of time and I'm not sure if my employer will be mad that other engineers can turn out similar work in a shorter time.

Do engineers make these sort of mistakes often?

www.compositescentral.net

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

"often" - No.  One of the reasons employers hire the best and brightest is that those graduates have a better understanding of the subject matter and will produce the correct answer (best suited answer in practice) more often than not.  That, of course, is the definition of above average and it reduces risks for management.

That said, if you worry about it too much this work may not be for you.  

Give it a try, follow what the older, more experienced engineers say and do and see how it goes.

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Everyone makes mistakes.
What's normally not tolerable is making mistakes all the time and never asking questions, or taking notes.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Once you see a superior make a mistake, your in-built mental image of the hierarchy just evaporates.

- Steve

LinkedIn
 

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Yes, you will make mistakes.  As you noted, you're human.  As Qshake noted, we are hired to be a bit above average and REDUCE (not eliminate) risk.

Most companies have systems in place to check and correct glaring errors and those that can get us into serious trouble.  Even these systems do not always work though.

Do your best, try not to be distracted when working on critical details or when checking, and don't spend your time worrying about making a mistake.

Companies have to tolerate some level of mistakes.  They are made top to bottom.  If you work for a boss who tolerates no mistakes, move on.  

You might also read up on "Standard of Care" for engineers.  Understand it and its meaning to you in practice.  It does not require perfection.  It is based on reasonableness.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

> Errors are inevitable, but you have to learn to balance the effort used in double and triple checking, vs. your overall throughput, as well as your "hit" rate for finding errors.  In general, your personal efficiency in finding errors decreases as the number of attempts to find them increases.  It might be more effective to have someone else check your design the 2nd time around.  

> More importantly, you should own up immediately when errors are found, and immediately fix them, and figure out a strategy to minimize a recurrence.  People, and management, are generally more tolerant of someone who is upfront with their mistakes compared to those that hide and obfuscate their errors.  The latter engenders a lack of trust.

TTFN

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RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

A new engineer uses the same equations that an experienced engineer uses.  The biggest difference is that with time you get a feeling for the expected magnitude of an answer.  Last week I calculated a flow rate that "felt" a bit high.  So I reduced it to a velocity and the velocity was nearly 100 Mach.  Obviously a wrong answer.  I went looking and found that I had converted from ft^3/sec to MCF/day (the conversion is 86400/1000=86.4) twice.  I've been doing this stuff a really long time.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't need to punch all the numbers into your calculator two or three times, you just need to look at the answer and decide if it is a reasonable magnitude.  If you don't have a feel for a particular parameter, then take it a step farther (e.g., convert a mass flow rate to velocity, a stress number to a fraction of SMYS, etc) and think about its reasonableness.  If you find that a stress number is 10 times SMYS, then either you busted a calculation or you're going to bust a piece of steel.

David

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Error checking and "having a feel" for the answer are important.  I also make it a habit of doing "peer review".  I've always had a couple of colleagues that I can turn to, to do a double check of my design calcs and technical work.  I use this especially when I get the gut feel of something amiss.

I'd agree with the above posts though - most supervisors will be accepting of mistakes, providing they are minimal, and not frequent, and that the person in error owns up to them as soon as they notice.  Again, good companies will have checks and balances in place to catch mistakes before it costs big $'s.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

If you want to see lots of engineering mistakes, just download an app for the iPAD called...well, I suppose it might not be ethical for me to mention its name (sigh).  But, I spent $19.95 on an engineering app that - among other things - for a centrifugal pump with a 9" impeller turning at 3550 rpm, calculates a head delivered of just over thirty three million feet of liquid pumped.  Now, I don't know about you, but when I need that kind of head I usually can't get it unless I put a couple of pumps in series or something....  Another error: Sine 45 degrees = 0.013.  Another error: 300 kPa of water pressure = 100.4 metres of head (feet, maybe...).  Another error: heat exchangers; LMTD cannot be calculated.  Now, allegedly, this app was written by engineers for engineers, so it's scary to think that people might use it and trust it, when in fact it is about as useful as a random number generator.

Myself, I once almost issued a request for quotation for a boiler based on mechanical horsepower.  D'OH!

So...relevance to this post...

Like others have said, develop a "feel" for what answers sound reasonable.  After you have that feel, your errors will be reduced to pushing the wrong buttons on a calculator from time to time.  So, push the buttons twice.

One final thought: the only mistakes that are really frowned on where I work are the ones you make twice (or more) because you didn't learn from the first one.  Those are bad ones.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

I have not seen a drawing from a vendor without an error in over 15 years.

You should try to do better.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

MJ...ditto for shop drawings in construction (and the original design drawings!)

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

The world ran out of perfect people in 1843. If you aren't making mistakes then you are probably not working and your boss knows this because he/she has made mistakes before. Typically companies have several levels of review for the same job to avoid mistakes from getting outside the company walls. Don't worry about making mistakes because many great things came to fruition because somebody was not afraid to fail.  

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

That's what the intern position was supposed to do for you:  to begin, in earnest, the life-long process of calibrating your commonsense.

As long as I don't have to get out the dead blow mallet to give your common sense a reset, I don't mind the odd mistake.  Even a serious one, made once and truly and earnestly LEARNED FROM and never repeated is just fine.

Worried about what your boss thinks of your productivity and how much checking you're doing?  Go talk to the boss- don't assume anything.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

When I was a lot younger, my boss started some project that involved a 3D engine model that attempted to predict timing gear rattle.  He was quite proud of it and then dumped it on me to continue the project.  After a couple of days I had the pleasure of asking him why it was being run backwards.

- Steve

LinkedIn
 

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

2
•Save your calculations.
•Learn to get a feel for the right amount of sweat in the details.
•Don't proclaim anything "final" until it has been checked by someone else.
NEVER LIE!

Most companies I have worked for are tolerant of honest mistakes, so long as you show you have done due diligence.

Mistakes can be forgiven.  A constant repeat of the same mistakes with a demonstrated failure to learn will ultimately not be forgiven.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

The most important item in that list, Tick is the one you highlighted, but if I had taken the first one to heart when I started in this profession I would have saved myself a lot of grief.  It took 10 years of having to recreate calcualtions (or follow undocumented calculations) about 3 times a year before I got it.  Now every calculation is in MathCAD with extensive notes as to where I got data and why I changed default assumptions.  Saves my butt about once a month.

David

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Well, not sure anyone here has ever been fired or let go for making mistakes.

At least one guy got put to the front of the lay off list for finding others mistakes though.

Do the math!

Do what you can to check your own work, but even experienced folk that look their drawing over several times, perhaps weeks between reviews etc. and even after having had prototypes made from the drawing pack will miss stuff.  

I know because a few weeks back a drawing I'd spent a lot of time on converting it from a machined part to cast part, incorporating casting house feedback, correcting the paint/finishing notes to reflect change in company ownership, gone through ECO... got brought back to me because the diameter on one hole was no where to be seen!  (Vendor must have used CAD model to build to.)

Having a suitably qualified second set of eyes to look over stuff is invaluable.

Most of the drawings produced by other engineers around here are error filled crap, but I don't know of any that have really been disciplined about it.

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RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

I mostly use Excel for calculations.

I sometimes go to the trouble of making them go full circle.
By which I mean, after the part where you get the result, keep going, working the problem backwards, just to see if it will duplicate the inputs.
When it doesn't, it's time to step through the problem a little at a time, again.




 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

I had a boss (rest his soul) who used to say, "it's not a mistake until it can't be fixed."

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

(OP)
Thanks for all the responses guys.

I think the experience factor is going to be the hardest skill to develop.

I use Mathcad all the time now, it's makes both the documentation and presentation a cinch. I'm somewhat worried that I'll eventually end up missing a bug in the software but I suppose that's where hand calcs and double checks come in.

 

www.compositescentral.net

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

We have an old plumber on staff who is invaluable for his bits of wisdom and experience.

Once when sitting in a meeting and trying to explain to a client how a co-ordination item was missed in the original design he piped up:

"If you wanted a perfect design you should have hired God, but you couldn't afford his rates."

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

bellx1,
From my perspective, my company is far too tolerant of errors. I see the same mistakes made over and over again in the field. "That's how we did it on last job" is the common denominator.  

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

I've found the best method of handling people finding my mistakes is 1) to ask for some sort of verification, which is usually simple, 2) own up, admit the mistake, and vow to fix it 3) prioritize fixing it ASAP - if not within the hour, then within the day if at all possible.

You can turn making relatively minor mistakes into a positive for yourself by showing both willingness to admit mistakes and speed in correcting them. They're going to remember you made that mistake - make sure they also remember that you handled it quickly and professionally by doing so while it's still fresh in their minds. On the other hand, if you try to weasel too much, hiding behind very minor things that others did, someone's not gunna buy it and their opinion of both your character and your competance will be damaged.

Of course, if you have management that simply has no tolerance for this sort of thing, you're pretty much SOL.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

I still have a file in my desk with drawing mistakes I made over 5 years ago when I did design work.  I no longer use modeling programs or make prints, but I still keep this file to remind my self no one is perfect.  Also, where applicable, I would write the dollar amount the mistake cost.

When I get new people working for me, I always have them read through the file so they can see that mistakes will happen, and learning from them is what gets you ahead.

Cabbages, knickers, It hasn't got A BEAK!

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

I have checked calculations by many engineers from graduate to nearly retirement age and have found mistakes in most of their work.

The mistakes of the more experienced engineers tend to be more minor and more subtle, but are there nonetheless.

Many other simpler professions spend far more time checking than we do, for some reason engineers think they are more infallible than others but this is simply not true.

Have you heard of financial auditors? companies spend millions on consultancy firms to do this and all they are doing is making sure that the books are actually correct (i.e. checking the accounts).

If your calculations (or whatever you materials guys produce) are not checked by a more experienced engineer then this is a financial decision made by the managers of the company and it is not entirely your fault if one of your errors slips through.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Sometimes you get the pleasure of having someone find your "mistakes", only to find they were mistaken.poke

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Quote (csd72):

Have you heard of financial auditors? companies spend millions on consultancy firms to do this and all they are doing is making sure that the books are actually correct (i.e. checking the accounts).
I would imagine they're looking more for intentional mistakes, ala ENRON, than accidental winky smile

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

If you are doing, you're going to make mistakes.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

The only person who doesn't make mistakes is the person who doesn't do anything.

Real important advice a few posts above.  Be willing to admit that you made a mistake, and when you do, state how you plan to rectify it.  If you can, be the first one to announce it.  Better to step into your bosses office and say "I wanted you to know this before you find out from someone else..."  Bosses hate being blindsided - especially by their bosses.  I had to do this just within the last couple of weeks.  What could have been ugly if it had flowed from top management down to him turned out to be not to bad when he was able to hear it from below and be prepared with a plan when the "bosses" called.

If there weren't errors on drawings, there would be no need for checkers.  If there weren't errors in peoples work, there wouldn't be processes to check and verify work.

Don't take yourself too seriously.  We all make mistakes and you will too.  Learn to laugh at yourself; others sure will.

One of the worst persons I ever worked with was a guy who 'never made mistakes.'  He cost me plenty with his "perfect" work.

rmw

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

Quote (TheTick):

•NEVER LIE!

Right on!  You will meet people who lie for various reasons and they will try to seduce and/or pressure you into following suit.  Don't do it because it is wrong and it does hurt others.  Some, sadly, will possess engineering degrees, which does nothing more than sully the reputation of the profession.

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

The truth can always be reproduced from first priciples, using the original available inputs.  Unlike a lie.

- Steve

LinkedIn
 

RE: How tolerant is your company of wrong answers?

* Do not make assumptions.
* Any time you find out an error, document it in your personal notes so that the next time, at least it is not the same kind of error you get busted for.
* If your hand claculations don't match the FEA results then find out why?
* All the data (material properties etc) you obtain, include the source in the report.
* Use CAD (3D) to make sure all the parts of the assembly go together.
* Do not shy away from asking the technicians.  

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