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Are engineers timid?
18

Are engineers timid?

Are engineers timid?

(OP)
During a conversation with a salesman, he stated that engineers are uncomfortable cold calling companies or people.  If you gave one an assignment to call fifteen companies, institutions, people, he would be very uncomfortable doing it.  He believes the task would not get done.

All thoughts and humor are welcome.

RE: Are engineers timid?

It would make me uncomfortable.

RE: Are engineers timid?

3
If an engineer was NOT uncomfortable doing something like that then I suspect that he'd soon discover that if he changed jobs and became a 'salesman' that he'd make a crapload more money.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

3
The skill set that drives someone to being an engineer includes a list of stuff (ability to comprehend mathmatical concepts, analytical ability, etc.), but it doesn't necissarily preclude other stuff.  The sterotypical "engineer" fits the old joke "you can tell an extroverted engineer because he looks at your shoes when he talks instead of his own", but I don't know that guy.

I know accountants, doctors, plumbers, and lawyers who are uncomfortable cold-calling folks (my doctor will do almost anything to avoid making a phone call to someone he knows, and he breaks out in a sweat when he has to call someone he doesn't know).  The skill set that makes cold calling easy is just that--a skill set.  The percentage of the human population with that skill set is not huge.  Some of the people with it are engineers.  Some engineers have a total deficiency of that skill.

My guess is that your salesman is the sort of guy who gets through life by putting everyone into boxes and ignoring any skill that they might have outside the box.  To say "Engineers are ..." or "Engineers can't ..." is simply asinine (much like saying "women can ..." or "women can't ...").  Hell, a non-trivial number of engineers have run countries (some of them not so well, others were pretty good) and other political entities.  Your salesman would certainly say that was impossible.

David

RE: Are engineers timid?

Why in the world would an engineer need to cold-call?

RE: Are engineers timid?

Most engineers hate sales and if we can generalize, I would say the majority (more than 50%) could be classified as timid but not making the calls would be more cause we hate being salesman moreso than being timid. Salesman need to have good conversation skills and love small talk, usually the opposite of most engineers.  

RE: Are engineers timid?

If an engineer loved to cold-call, he would become a manager...no longer an engineer.
wink

I have worked with engineers that refused to ever use a phone.
One told me he could never communicate work related discussions.
Weird...

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Are engineers timid?

Not sure that 'timid' is the reason, and there are certainly exceptions, perhaps a lot, however you phrase it.

I'll agree/admit, I'm not big on phone calls to folks I don't know.

However, I'm not sure timid is quite the phrase or reason.

I can think of a few people that wouldn't put me down as timid, though I probably can be at times.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Are engineers timid?

Agreed, I'm not a fan of cold calling.  I've gotten used to it over the last few years, but whenever I have to I do get a little nervous.  I'm not sure why really.

I'm glad it's not something I have to do on a regular basis.

RE: Are engineers timid?

When I started my business, I had a LONG list of people I had worked with that needed a personal phone call to let them know I was in business.  I looked forward to that set of calls because the list was people I knew and liked that I had mostly lost track of.  Then I had a REALLY LONG list of cold calls that I dreaded.  I would make two calls from that list, one from the other list, take a break.  I did this for two weeks before I started my first project (a gift from a friend, but I didn't know it at the time) and never picked up the cold-call list again (but I did finish the first list after a couple of months).  None of those guys ever called with work anyway.  

I really hated cold calls, but I did it.  I don't think I was very good at it (or it just isn't an effective way to drum up engineering work), but I was better than some of the cold calls I get from people who do cold-calls for a living.

David

RE: Are engineers timid?

Hating to cold call is not an indication of timidity.  Just cold call me and you'll find out if I'm timid.

RE: Are engineers timid?

Depends what you mean by cold calling.

Some sales managers set a quota for cold calling because they think this is what grows the business.

Let's confine this to the sales of engineered products, pumps, valves, instruments, mixers etc. engineering services and so on.
In this area we have the "sales engineer".

There are two types of "sales engineers":
1) the "I can sell anything to anybody" sales man who is trying to sell one of the above. These are the professional sales people who just need a car, an expense account and a catalogue and will use the same methods to sell the above as they would to sell biscuits or time share. (except, most engineering sales are to engineers and most sales techniques are based on emotion.
2) the engineer who is thoroughly versed in the product or service and who has been sent on a sales training course to help him sell.
These are the least suitable for monkey see monkey do read from the catalogue and flip the desk top flip charts and "use the product selector" that are increasingly a part of the Global single source strategic alliance business models (that are, in my opinion, responsible for the "70% of flowmeters are the wrong size or the wrong technology" sales of flowmeters or any other product, if it comes to that).

The latter is very very uncomfortable with cold calling. Especially as most such calls are to engineers.

But with either type, it isn't just about how comfortable either is with cold calling it's about how effective it is.

Usually cold calling is picking on some company and calling at reception unannounced and with no appointment. Most times all you'll get is a compliments slip to prove you've been there. Sometimes you'll get a name of a contact and then you can try and make an appointment. In some cases you'll manage to talk your way into having somebody, usually the wrong somebody because the receptionist will usually pick on someone that is a known soft touch, not someone relevant (of which there may be no-one anyway because its the wrong company to call on).
In this case it means some engineer is dragged away from whatever he is doing to talk with someone he doesn't know about something he doesn't have a use for.

What's the point?
Management want to grow the business. This comes from growing the market or from the competition. many think cold calling is generating new business. Rot.
80% of the sales come from 10-20% of the clients. Growth comes from more sales. The logical place to look is within the 20% that already provide 80% of your business and you want to keep the competition from getting a look in.
The majority of the rest comes from occasional sales to the remaining 10-20% and then there are new clients.
New clients come from marketing initiatives or sales campaigns designed to generate new interest; requests for literature questions asked and even requests for quotes.

Now factor in:
Most salesmen on commission (and especially distributors) will sell the easiest thing to sell and are worried about their end of the month figures.
The easiest sales are of the same product in the same application to the same client.
Next easiest is where you change any one of the above excepting that new products, new applications and new clients will none of them generate short term results.
The very worst thing to waste time on is cold calling.

Now the salesman should have a responsibility to find new business. But cold calling isn't the way, especially not in the era of the internet. He is most comfortable selling existing products for proven applications to new clients. The easiest way to do this is called buffer selling. You take a proven application with one client and then head for the competition. This is the easiest because the competition thinks the only way to stay ahead is to not be left behind so if they learn their competitors (not necessary to name them) are now using product A then they will be more inclined to want to see what product A is all about and maybe buy.

So against all this you have management and commission based salesmen aligned in wanting to hit the end of the month targets. Management may also want to see growth. They have to see an ROI on R&D which means they have to take a proportion of the salesmen's efforts to sell new products. That is a long term return on the salesmen's efforts and must be managed.

So all in all I can think of lots of much better things to do with the sales effort than set quota's for unqualified cold calls (i.e. just call at any convenient business on route for a comps slip and tick the box). Calls by appointment are far to be preferred and structured calls better still.
Since most salesmen spend 1 in 5 writing reports, for the remaining 4, 3 will be spent with existing clients.There isn't room in the remaining 1 for cold calls. Except it isn't 1 because we also have to take out for sales meetings holidays sickies etc.

And what is left is too valuable to waste cold calling.
Most engineers would recognise this as a waste of time and resist doing it. Most fo the rest also recognise it as a waste of time but are happy to waste time if they meet quotas.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

Sounds like he feels a little inferior around you and had to try and find something to cut you down about. Some engineers are timid but I think the typical engineer is a confident well adjusted person.  

RE: Are engineers timid?

hokie66...as is common, you beat me to it!  I don't consider myself timid.  In the business I'm in, have to go "toe-to-toe" routinely.  But I hate cold calls.  I've done them, will do them again, but don't like them.  So what?

RE: Are engineers timid?

Perhaps this will reveal part of the problem:



However, that real issue becomes obvious here:

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

Hell, I don't even want to talk to people I know.  I'm not timid, just anti-social...

RE: Are engineers timid?

... maybe "just" was a bit too strong.

RE: Are engineers timid?

I've always hated cold-calling, either on the phone or in person.

What I do like is being the technical expert to back-up the front-man.  Those meetings are normally really good and fun.

- Steve

LinkedIn
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

Two quick stories, occurring before & after my time at "Company X".

#1:  During CompanyX tenure.
Asked to go with my friend the SalesGuy on a road trip.

Sitting at customer table, SalesGuy is doing his ADHD-addled "I'm the center of attention" clown act.  Customer is overworked engineer, getting irritated at "another salesman".  Finally I put my hand up in SalesGuy's face and say "Tom, SHUT UP, and let the man talk, and LISTEN.  Now, CustomerGuy, let me tell you.  I'm just the dumb engineer, not the sales guy, so I will tell you the truth about whether our product is good for your application or not.  So tell me what you need."  CustomerGuy gushed a sigh of relief.
We got the sale.  SalesGuy & I were very successful after that and became great friends.

#2:  After CompanyX tenure.
CompanyX forced to lay me off due to collapse of my particular industry.  I decide to have a try at engineering consulting business.  Unfortunately my business started 6 weeks before the 9-11 Event, which initiated a 3-year deep recession.

My sister-the-Psychologist gives me a skills test and says my worst skill is "cold calling", is a fear of rejection.  In her wisdom, she says "it doesn't mean you can't do it, but that you must work harder at it."

My business failed on first attempt.  I go on unemployment and interview CompanyZ.  EngineeringMgrGuy tells me he's very interested and will contact me in 3-weeks (never did...boo hoo hoo rejected again).  I get a referral for a consulting gig which helps me survice the Recession.  Emboldened after 1st gig is done, I decide to cold call EngineeringMgrGuy and ask for some work.  It turns out the reason he never responded is that HE was laid off shortly after my interview.  I decide to call back on cold call to seek work (I knew that there was opportunities there).  I called repeatedly, got the automated attendant, and waded through a dozen or so employee directory names until I got a live person.  I explained my purpose and goal, and got transferred to another party.  After the SEVENTH transfer I was speaking with the President of the company.  He transferred me to NewEngineeringMgrGuy and he invited me in the next morning.  This meeting resulted in a very lucrative contract.

Lessons learned:
1.  Cold calling is hard to do for many engineers, but can be done.
2.  Most times it is done badly and is a waste of time.
3.  With a strategic approach it can be useful.
4.  There is work under every bush if we're willing to look hard enough for it.

That "fear of rejection" thing...I don't have it any more.  I'm now a fearless cold caller and Gatekeeper-avoider.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Are engineers timid?

Cold-calling needs to be targeted, at least to some degree.  Care for an example of cold-calling stupidity?

I work for an international company, so we have contracts with major headhunters and staffing firms.  All staffing goes through HR, and we only hire from the firms we have contracts with.  As an engineer, management or not, I do not have the ability to go outside of the HR boundaries to find someone to work for me.

So imagine my surprise when I receive a call from a "saleswoman" from one of the companies we contract with.  She knows the rules, she knows I'm unable to make such a decision, and knows the only thing within my power is to transfer her back to the switchboard and on to HR... yet she tries to weasel info out of me.  Do I need anyone right now, do I think I'll need someone with a particular talent in the coming weeks/months, etc.  After explaining twice that the conversation was inappropriate and she needed to speak to HR, I started weaseling for her info... name, position, time with the company, etc.  After I hung up, I spoke with HR and suggested we reconsider keeping her company on contract as they were wasting my valuable time.

If anything, her cold call didn't just annoy me, it potentially hurt her company and may cost them a lucrative contract.  Stupidity on her part, but I don't doubt it will happen again.  Keep things like that in mind when cold calling for business...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Are engineers timid?

Had this sales/contract writing job that I was forced into many years ago.  The whole idea of talking on the phone most of the day took the energy out of me.  

I think either talking gives people energy or it sucks the energy out of you.  Most people have a so many words a day vocabolary.  I think it was proven that women have 2x the words/day capacity then men.  

Being timid is not the word for engineers, but when a engineer speaks I think he is thinking what to say because the person is guarded.  Guarded means that as an engineer what you say has to be right or correct, not some off the cuff comment like sales speak.  Sales is about smoozing and greasing the wheel to get the sale and promising the world to the customer.  Sales is the opposite of engineering, but its not evil vs good, both can not live without the other.

RE: Are engineers timid?

TygerDawg, this is one reason why, despite the fact that I now work in the development department of a software company, that I've kept my P.E. license up-to-date all these years (note that I did work 14 years as a design engineer for a large multinational manufacturing company and I have a BSME degree from one of the top rated schools in the country.  That way I can legally include it as part of my title on my business card and on my email/internet signature as it gives me credibility when I'm dealing with engineers who have to live with our products on a day-today basis.  And while it is true that for 7 years I did work in the sales organization of our company (prior to moving to R&D), I was never on comp and the role I play was that of professional consulting in support of our 'sales-weasels' (those Dilbert cartoons were not choosen by accident).  My move to R&D came about as the result of us winning in 1987 the largest (and still the record) single CAD/CAM/CAE software deal in the history of the industry and it was decided that since I was one of the people who actually knew what it was that we had promised the customer, that it would be helpful is I moved to the development side of the organization so that we could be sure that we actually delivered what we had said that we would (or at least alluded to delivering).  That was 24 years ago this coming week, and I've never looked back winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

Quote (KENAT):


 ...if a good product sells itself then maybe good engineers could live without sales folks

Hey, someone has to get the signatures on the PO and file the paperwork winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

When I started my business 30 years ago, I had to use cold calls to develop my own clients, not using any of the leads of my employer at that time.  With time, it was not hard and I was good at it  averaging one job every five calls.  Since the first year or so, I have not had to do many as my network worked for me.  

However, as many clients either retired, passed on, or just quit the business over the years, I am considering cold calling again.

God help me!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
hokie66, send your number and I'll cold call you.  You sound rather extroverted.  smile

I don't think this salesman is intimidated by engineers.  I think he finds us humorously and inordinately introverted.  We are risk averse and dislike going into unknown situations particularly unknown situations with respect to people.

For years I thought I was introverted.  I did some analysis a couple of years ago and learned I am an extrovert.  Who would have known???  I didn't give it much thought so it was a surprise to me.

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun,
Did you take the Meyers-Briggs test?  If so, the "E" in their ranking really doesn't mean "extrovert" even though that is the label they hang on it.  I've had to take that damn test 5 times over the years (always got the same score), and spent some time researching the meanings of the rankings.  Each of the four terms are relative to each other.  The other three terms define the midpoint of the fourth.  So, I'm an ENTJ, the combination of "N", "T", and "J" defines where the midpoint of the "troverted" continuum sits (and the combination of the "E", "N", and "T" define the midpoint of the "judgement" continuum).  It could be that the midpoint for me is "will never voluntarily talk to another person" and the "Intorvert" would "sit in a dark room without a phone" and the "Extrovert" would "turn on the light".  Not really extroverted by any rational definition.

David

  

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
David, M-B put me at ENTJ, too.  The people doing the testing told me beforehand they thought I was extroverted.  I protested but they stood firm.

I will start conversations in any line while waiting.  If something grabs my interest about a person or thing, away I go.  Sometimes I start a conversation just to see if I can.

I will develop ideas or plans in my head but then I really want to discuss them with others I know and trust.

Dark rooms are for sleeping.

Phones are great for short messages or when you can't get face-to-face.

RE: Are engineers timid?

I'm much the same (you don't have success teaching classes if you won't make eye contact, and I've been pretty successful at that), but a couple of my co-workers would actually get sick if they had to do a presentation and they showed up as "E".  It is all relative to the other letters.

David

RE: Are engineers timid?

I don't consider myself an extrovert, by any means. However, I have started and run 3 businesses.  Sold one, dissolved another from lack of my interest, and still have the other.  

Have taken a variety of psychological profile tests over the years and scored similar on all...yet don't necessarily fit the profile.

Can't stand corporate politics.  Can't stand corporate weenies.  Been there...done that..as "they" say.  I keep my business small, because I have no desire to "manage".  I don't advertise.  I don't market. I don't compete on price.  Apparently I'm reasonably good at what I do...according to those that matter (my repeat clients). No, I'm not arrogant.  I serve my clients.  I take care of my family.  If my family needs me on Wednesday morning, I'm there.  If my client needs me on Sunday afternoon, I'm there.  If there's a conflict, my family usually wins.

I make eye contact. I don't give a $hit what MY shoes look like, much less yours.  My wife says I intimidate.  I have no desire to intimidate.  I just want to reach an understanding when I interact...that's best done directly without nuance and innuendo.

Put me in whatever category or slot you feel the need to do..I don't care.  I make no apologies for being "me".  

I'm an engineer and I want to be like hokie66 and zdas04 when I grow up!

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

I always thought ENTJ meant Ear, Nose, Throat and Jiggly bits.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

I would have thought most MB profiles for engineers would be ISTJ.
I wouldn't consider myself timid.  In a sense, every call initiated on my end of the phone or computer is a cold call.  Pre qualifying vendors would be a good example.  Within the context of drumming up new business or clients, though, my experience is that most engineers don't seem to be wired that way.  The ones that are, they run their own companies, but even that is often a product of their not agreeing with others around them.
It is too bad.  If more engineers and fewer MBAs ran engineering companies, inevitably the second law of thermodynamics might prevail at the end of time, but the end of time would be further down the road.

Not that I am in any way bitter.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
SNORGY, I think you are, in some way, bitter.  Bitterness is a hard emotion to overcome or it was for me.  I wish fewer MBA's ran a lot of companies related to manufacturing.  I'm trying to get my own company up and running because I've disagreed with others.  However, when it comes to ethics and ensuring my customers are taken care of correctly, honestly, and according to the law, disagreements often prevail.  Often, people look at the bottom line rather than the right thing to do.  As a Christian, I have no desire to be irresponsible with the truth.  As a P.E., I have no desire to compromise my license.  It was a lot of work to get and many years of effort.  I'm also learning many P.E.'s that I don't know take ethics very seriously, which is refreshing to me.  Bible study is an excellent way to understand the depravity of man and what we're all capable of committing against another person.  But we also have the great news of the Gospel so it's hard to stay "down" too long.

Ron, I am with you right down the line.  Far too many will reach the end of their lives and wonder where the substance is but you will not.  Count your blessings for seeing it early in life.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
jmw, none of my ENT's had J's as you describe.  They were all pretty taut, trim dudes much to my satisfaction.  smile

RE: Are engineers timid?

It could be ORLJ, for the latin minded: oto rhino laryngology....and junoesque bits.
Mind you, I do wonder why medical types named the nose for a large African animal....

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun:

I am as you say just a tad bitter.  But, like you, my ethics are second to none and I am not driven by money.

I do care about engineering.
 

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Are engineers timid?

I've come to realise a few things over the years, which may be obvious, but they're not always appreciated.

There are many jobs in my business that I'd never want to do, however, there are people who seem to really enjoy doing them.

Forcing someone into a role in which they are not comfortable is never a good thing.

You are wrong to assume that everyone has the same aspirations.

Team dynamics cannot be manufactured.  The parts that people play in a team need to be understood.

 

- Steve

LinkedIn
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

ISTJ

15 to 20 years ago the entire paper company management group (where I worked) was tested and in my session (engineering and maintenance managers) 30 of 32 were I's.

There was some scatter in the other three categories.

I was most troubled by the J - Judgemental; and when I shared my thoughts with my sister, who is the polar opposite of me, she said "And you are suprised by this?".

I typically develop good relationships with strangers on projects, but they initiate the contact with RFI's etc.

 

gjc
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

Risk averse?  It's all relative.  When you design a 20-story building in a high wind and high seismic zone, there's no way in hell an engineer could be considered "risk averse".  Risk to a salesman is whether he'll get to take someone to lunch and get it paid by his expense account.  Risk to an engineer is daily life...and I do mean "life".

RE: Are engineers timid?

Hmm, thought about this some more.

I enjoy making cold calls about as much as filling out a big wad of paperwork and avoid them with equal vigor.

I'm pretty sure not enjoying filling out paperwork has nothing to do with being timid.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Are engineers timid?

I could probably afford a little more timidness as of late.  Some could say I've got a secret lust for arguing above my pay grade, I just argue that I'm sick of the corporate BS and the associated lame duck attitudes!

RE: Are engineers timid?

Where I used to work (back in the 70's) arguing with the boss was a sign that he cared and considered your points of view as being worth debating.  For those he had no respect for, he would just order them to do what he wanted, end of conversation.  With those whom he felt were good engineers he would argue to make his point or to allow you to make yours.  And if decided to pick an argument with you and you backed-down too quickly, after one or two instances of that would soon find yourself getting ONLY 'orders' from the boss.  I'm not saying that this was a good way to do business, but there was a 'click' in our office and membership generally had to be earned over years of standing-up for what you believed in while realizing that when the boss WAS right that you had to eventually accept that and graciously 'lose' those arguments.  Now it did help if you a graduate of the same university that he was, which was the case for me and 4 other guys in our office, so therefore our 'probation' period for membership into the 'click' was much shorter than others.  Again, I'm not claiming that this was a good situation, it's just the way it was, but since I was on the 'inside' I never really questioned it at the time, but in retrospect it's easy now to see how this would have been bad for moral and and eventually productivity.

BTW, being part of the 'click' also meant that when something really crappy had to done, such as go into the field for 3 or 4 weeks and try to save some installation it was guys from the 'click' who always got picked, because the boss trusted us and he knew what we were capable of.  And in return, we got the best performance reviews, the chances to work on the fun jobs when they came along as well as getting to attend the tradeshows we exhibited at and when something totally unexpected happened and the boss needed someone he could trust to tell him if this was a good idea or not, then one of us would be given the chance.

Case in point.  Back in 1977 when our company first implemented CAD/CAM our boss had no idea what it was or how it could be used effectively in our organization but our parent company had made the decision to have the system installed at our facility and a sister facility in the UK.  Our system was going to be used by 3 departments and we were given 6 training credits to send people to classes in SoCal (I was working in Michigan) and so 2 of them were given to my boss.  He picked two engineers to go, both members of his 'click' and 3 years later, after my boss had been fired (it was actually over something besides his office 'demeanor', but management used that as the official reason since they knew he couldn't deny it), I decided that this CAD stuff looked like more fun than 'work' and so I contacted the salesman who sold us our system and arranged for an interview and I was hired as a technical sales consultant (AKA 'demo jock') and as they say, the rest is history.

So the moral of the story is, if the boss wants to argue with you, it may be in your best interest to participate as long as you understand the rules since in the end it may be a career-enhancing move and besides, it might put you in a position where you're given the opportunity to try something different leading to a totally new professional direction in your life.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

I don't agree with timid. Take an engineer's calculations and scrutinize them, I bet he won't be "timid" for long!  I've heard that engineers "are unaccountable", but if that were the case why do engineers carry professional liscensure? No, I believe that some engineers lack certain communication skills. But eventually they all to learn to communicate, it's a core part of our job.  

There are days when I wake up feeling like the dumbest man on the planet, then there are days when I confirm it.  

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Saw said salesman recently, who said, "No offense to engineers, but their social skills are non-existent.  They just don't talk to people.  They don't make eye contact and you're lucky if they don't look at their shoes during a conversation."

He doesn't have anything against us.  He finds us too nerdy.  smile

RE: Are engineers timid?

When I was just finishing up my Junior year in engineering school (this would have the 1969/70 school year) the university announced that an additional required class had been added and even though I was graduating the following year I was still expected to take the class before graduations (those behind us could take it anytime in their time at school but we had no choice).  The class was titled 'Engineering Communications' and it was jammed into the curriculum because it was becoming apparent that engineers were heading our into the world unprepared for what it was really like.

Now some of the best professors and instructors already understood this and many of them had been creating ad hoc opportunities and requirements in their normal classroom work where students were expected to make stand-up presentations, use alternative media, which in those days included stuff like slides for overhead projectors and poster-board visuals and such.  However this class took all those ideas and some others and made it a formal class.  This was the era where video-taping was possible and so you would have to make a presentations which were taped and then critiqued by the instructor and your peers.  We also had to learned quick freehand sketching techniques, and the use of presentation materials, such as those overhead slides, but including colored gels and such, as well as production of posters and other collateral material.  Looking back on it now, it all seems rather crude, but it definitely forced a lot of 'geeks' to understand that it sometimes takes more than just a well drawn set of plans to get your ideas signed-off by the executives who controlled the purse-strings when it came to R&D expenditures in your company or even when having to help sell a customer on why your company or products should be the one they should considering.

As part of my current job I get a chance to visit my alma mater on occasion since they are one of the schools where we have provided software and support for integrating CAD/CAE/CAM into their engineering programs and so I'm often asked to represent our company at student contests which are held a couple times a year, one for a freshman-level general engineering class and then for a senior-level Mechanical Engineering class.  Of course now students have laptops with PowerPoint where they can imbed animations, avi's (digital or actual video or even a combination), etc which they use when making the final presentations of their designs to what for them may be the first time that they have ever had to 'sell' their ideas to people who are not students or faculty members (the panel of judges are always people from industry or technology suppliers).  I always come away awed at what some of these kids (to someone who's going to be attending their 40 year college reunion in a couple of weeks, trust me, these students look like KIDS) are able to first come-up with as their original designs and then how they demonstrate their ability to present and in some cases defend there work since as judges we're encouraged to ask questions as that is part of what they're graded on, how did they respond and what sort of additional information were they able to present when confronted with the realization that perhaps something wasn't as clear to others as it was to them (most of these competitions, particularly the senior level ones, consisted of 4 or 5 person teams where such things as division of labor, how they coordinated their activities and what they learned during the final integration of their work into a final product was part of what they were judged on).

All in all, I think the engineers who are graduating today or probably going to seen as less timid simply because they are going to have better communication tools to work with and they will already be well versed in their use and how they can impact people and events.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

After reading most of the posts, I would answer the TS question with a big YES.

I hate to see it this way though, no wonder the profession is chronically underrated.

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

I think it is the wrong word.
What many of us dislike or are uncomfortable with is dealing with people. Of course, there are degrees of social discomfort, not all of us will be anti-social to the extreme, but most of us will carry inside that misterious engineer bug, some are more affected by it than others.
In my case, I´d say I hate making cold-calls, but in the other hand appart from my professional job I also teach at college and it is a way to soften that ill-need to avoid talking to others.
I´ll say it is a matter of constant practice.

As for the career underrate, is simple, life and business sucess is made of politics, politics is a consequence of social interaction, we lack of it...

Regards
Gerez

RE: Are engineers timid?

I am not timid. In fact, I find that it is in my best interest to exercise some level of restraint so that I don't come across as too confrontational in circumstances where I'm dealing with aggressive individuals. But that was the culture where I worked for 10 years, and if you didn't learn to how to effectively deal with some real ba$tard$, then you didn't survive.

In a subsequent job I foud myself disagreeing repeatedly with the technical decisions that my boss made on engineering processes. He made the final call on these engineering decisions, and he came up with a relatively large number of bad decisions over the years I was there. I would simply offer my perspective, but left him to do what he chose.

Then one day he came to me after I had given him what he had requested (on a ridiculously tight deadline) regarding a heat treating issue, and in a public setting he said that I looked like an idiot. I asked him why. He said that another employee who had been working in the company for several decades had contradicted what I had told him, and that he was embarrased in front of the company president when he voiced the opinion I had supplied. Apparently in this meeting the other guy's manager voiced an opposing opinion after my boss spoke. Hence, the embarrasment. Furthermore, my boss said, I would have to consult with that experienced employee on any future decisions regarding heat treat. I told him flat out that the other guy was dead wrong, and that I did not need to and would not consult with that guy on heat treat. We argued. I eventually called a meeting with several engineers including the other employee (who I actually got along with well) and we all agreed to run trials to find out what the proper decision should be.

Guess what happened? I was proven correct. He was proven wrong. And the boss was even more upset with me because of this. And when layoffs came in 2008, I was canned and the other guy is still working there for my former boss.

And Snorgy, in case you were wondering, my boss at that company was an MBA who couldn't engineeer his way out of a paper bag. And I was bitter about this for a long time. And maybe I still am.

Rant over.

Maui  

www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

RE: Are engineers timid?

JohnRBaker brings up an interesting question for this topic-
In most cases, do sales people make more than senior engineers?
How about sales vs management?
The reason I ask, is does it make sense for a person who has "non-timid" skill or personality traits to pursue one or the other over an engineering career based on salary goals? Or does a senior engineer do just as well a lot of the time?
Thanks!

RE: Are engineers timid?

Maui:

I lurk...but I read.  I appreciate commonalities in certain points of view.

I don't always jump on the Anti-MBA Bandwagon every time it rolls by.  That said, I probably helped pioneer the development of said bandwagon.

It is unfortunate that engineering as a profession is more than just a bit polluted by egos, politics, and insecurities.  Too often, people tend to want to focus on "who" is right rather than "what" is right, as appears to have been the case with your former boss.  If we all stuck to "what" was right, there wouldn't be any idiots.

And if there weren't any idiots, there wouldn't be any _____.

(Blank is a user-defined choice, for the sake of political correctness.)

 

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Are engineers timid?

No!

Dik

RE: Are engineers timid?

I hate cold callers, I believe that cold calling is an act of desperation. If tasked to do so, I would take it as an opportunity to "put on a different hat". It could be fun.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Mototank, I've learned that regardless of how much you earn money does not compensate adequately for other aspects of a job you dislike to varying degrees.  Money is not the Holy Grail of life and if put on too high a pedestal, it will lead to ruin and disenchantment with life.  I've watched engineers behave unethically trying to make an impression and control others in various schemes to get promoted and earn more money only to fail eventually.  A person's true motivations always come out sooner or later and truth prevails somehow.

Maui, I've been called an outright liar by former colleagues in front of plant managers, project managers, my boss, and peers.  I offered up my documentation to the whole group for review but none were interested, which spoke volumes to me.  No one came to my defense.  The PM's were amongst the last people to leave.  Their conversation revealed they had no intention of defending me because they did not understand the nature of the technology I proposed to use and they feared losing job security.  It took management seven years to understand I was telling the truth.

I don't view cold-calling as an act of desperation.  It may appear that way to some; however, their are a number of companies that need help but don't have the time or resources to look for it.

I've not met that many engineers that I would call timid or anti-social.  I've only met one that looked at his shoes while talking.  The rest are very good communicators.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

Lacajun-
Thanks for your response, and I will have to say I agree with you. That comes from a guy who has been raised in both worlds, and without a doubt, the big money parent is the one who can't seem to find happiness. That being said, I have interest in both areas and if I could have the ability to be more social, enjoy my job more(possibly) and have more financial freedom, I would definitely push that way...
Thanks for your response!

RE: Are engineers timid?

I have been declared as incompetent by the same client three times in my career.  I find that somewhat odd, given that they keep asking me to design more stuff for them, and it always works.

On one occasion, with this client, my incompetence was proclaimed by a plant superintendent because I delayed a start up by one day, and I used that day to have a contractor complete some small bore piping welds before we started to bring gas into the plant.  The part of the story that the client left out was the part in which one of the two operators had asked me to hold off on the start-up because the other operator was too drunk to help him start up the plant.  I, meanwhile, didn't want to expose a construction crew to any risks arising from trying to start up a gas plant with a drunk operator.

The superintendent was never told *that* part of the story, and my employer (the EPC firm) instructed me to never mention it either, because it would be in the best interests of all concerned to maintain a good working relationship with a valued client.  I was told that it was politically correct, ethical  and professional for my employer to state to the client that the delay was due to my inexperience as a project engineer and to leave it at that.  I was, thus, scapegoated, my time was not reimbursed and I was banned from future work on that client's projects.

I suppose, at that time, perhaps "timid" would have been an adjective used by some.  Looking back on it, I think I just took a bullet for the team, because in the words of Jack Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth.".

Twenty years later, if I was in the same position, I would have told the contractor to demobilize all of his personnel for the day, hopped in the foreman's pick-up and driven the three hours down the forestry trunk road to the nearest inhabited town or village, and left the client to do whatever he wanted while we were gone.  My days of taking those kinds of bullets for the team have passed.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Are engineers timid?

I've been self employed for 12 years.  I can honestly say that I have made at least a thousand cold calls.  I haven't had to make any in a couple of years, though. Once you develop a book of business, the phone rings.

I will admit that it's not my favorite activity.  But it's pretty easy if you have a plan and an idea of how to work each prospect.  
 

RE: Are engineers timid?

I've known extroverted, gregarious, outgoing salesmen (sales engineers of highly technical products) who dearly hated cold calling.

rmw

RE: Are engineers timid?

Back before mobile phones computers and the internet (those of you who can remember that far back), the cold call was an essential means to identify new prospects.
Salesmen hacking round the country and tracking down industrial sites, visiting factories and asking what they did and who to see was a way of doing business.
Salesmen had all sorts of tricks to gain access to potentially useful contacts within the company.
Much of this was a collosal waste of time. Or rather, the productivity level was very low. Companies recognised that 80% of the business comes from 20% of the client base and thus it is more productive to focus on that 20% to maintain and expand business and to harvest the rest on an ad hoc basis.

Today computers and the internet and mobile phones make it a lot more productive to use the internet to search out potential new clients and develop some intelligence remotely. Then you mail technical literature etc to likely prospects and then you contact them and follow up. AT this point the first face to face is no longer a cold call with some salesman in reception making a nuisance of himself and claiming some of some one's time to go away but there is some prior activity.

There is no magic formula except hard graft and working smart. Cold calling is a desperation measure. It delivers but it is not today the best way to develop new business. Not in its orginal form.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Are engineers timid?

"hard graft and working smart"

:)

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Well darn!  I've hooked up with some other sales types for help.  They are surprised I cannot break into companies because my presentation is good.  I'm not timid and my experience comes through.  There must be something I'm doing wrong.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

Sales success does not depend on being not timid. In fact in many cases being to out there goes against you.

There are a whole bunch of things you need to know to sell things.

What you are selling and who you sell to makes a significant difference.

I have sold to engineers or engineering types for years with varying levels of success. One variable was the product. If you are selling a turkey and everyone knows it's a turkey you will not succeed.

One major sales skill I acquired was the ability to identify a potential customers needs and see how they match my product line. No match, politely say so and move on, but leave the door open.

I NEVER EVER called in person without an appointment of some kind. I think it is just plain rude and disrespectful.

I have done a number of market research projects starting with researching lists of prospects, calling them and quickly establishing who is who there and if they have a use for my products. From that research, and sometimes during that call, I make appointments. That greatly reduces wasted time and significantly increases your chance of actually selling something that the person wants to buy.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

Pamela.

I can come back and expand on this if you like, but I have a pressing appointment right now and I don't really want to do a jmw type post to any greater degree than my last post already is.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
patprimmer, thanks for the excellent reminders!

Things are different in the USA after 9/11 and Dept. of Homeland Security.  Big Box companies have changed the landscape, too.  I'm unsure all the changes have been for the betterment of the commerce culture here.

Since it's just me, it will be very hard to get traction.  I am an unknown to most people.

It will work out one way or another.

Thanks for the interest!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

Pamela.

The other golden rule is that it is unlikely you will win business through personality.

Apart from price, by far the biggest reason people change is because they are dissatisfied. Being in their mind when they are of a mind to change is the big factor.

If they have a need for your product including price/quality position, but are unwilling to change, just do enough to stay on their radar so you are likely to learn they are ready to change. A consistent regular presence without push is the method.

If you win on price alone, you lose just as easy and become engaged in a race to the bottom. That might be valid if you have the lowest cost structures and can win that race, but you need to know.

Exceptional product and industry knowledge and an ability to ask leading questions THEN listen to and analyse answers whether verbal or not is also a good skill set to have. Out there sales personalities inevitably lack these skills.

Oh and never be afraid to ask for an order. The person is seeing you because they need to buy what your offering. They are only deciding from whom.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Pat, I am a pretty low key engineer.  I don't like pushy, in others or me.  I did a decent job of selling my solutions to internal customers.  I have a number of strikes against me now, e.g., being an outsider, one man show, lack of capital, no existing customer list, etc.  It's different trying to get in as an outsider.  Once I get in, I usually get job offers, which is not the goal.

One manufacturer recommended I get a job because what I am trying to do is incredibly difficult to almost impossible.  Life is too short to wear so many different hats.  I wonder if he thinks I am going to fail?  If I do, I do.  At least I will have tried, which is more than a lot of people do.

It's been interesting and fun.  I've met people I wouldn't have ordinarily.  I've heard and learned things I wouldn't have otherwise.  It's been more interesting than the linear direction I had in Corporate America.  I've spent so many hours in front of computers programming controls I got really tired of it.  But, I may be there again soon.  If that's the path, I'll be happy with it.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

I had thought of posting a reply here....but...Oh, I don't know...

RE: Are engineers timid?

2
I think that engineers have their own set of skills and abilities and too often "managers" try to push them outside their sphere of greatest productivity. Creative thinkers are often somewhat silent types and that can be seen as timidity, but not necessarily so. Silence and forethought is not automatically a weakness as "timidity" implies.

I like to look at it this way: God made some the hands, some the feet, and some the eyes, etc. The hand cannot say to the eyes, "I am more important than you, and therefore don't need you." No, the entire body does not function properly without each piece doing its assigned task.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
tz101, excellent point!  Couldn't agree more.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

OK, just read thru some of the earlier posts, the looking at shoes thing brought to mind the old joke.

How do you tell if an engineer is an introvert or an extrovert?
An introvert looks at his shoes when talkng to you, an extrovert looks at your shoes.

Regards,

Mike

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Good joke, SnTMan!

Said salesman gave me more "coaching" last night to make me the aggressive saleswoman he believes I am not. He cracks me up.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun, glad you liked it:)

Visited your blog briefly, have to believe you will get where you want to go. Keep at it.

Regards,

Mike

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun,

Stop by the pub one day to receive well-deserved accolades.

tz101,

God made some the hands, some the feet, some the eyes...but sadly, the ones found most in abundance are those that are correlated with parts of the anatomy located at the intersection between straight verical and horizontal lines that connect those features.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Thanks, Mike! I fear I lack a business head. The last few weeks have been an interesting lesson in human nature and once again I have some decisions to make. The good news is that I've recently met some people who are decent and will not abandon one in a bad spot. For me, that's good to see.

SNORGY, tell me the pub and I'll drop by. I don't need accolades but could use an encouraging slap on the back. smile

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun...

Pat's Pub. Lots of folks wished you well on your recent (last week) TipMaster selection, me included. You are a well-liked and respected member here.

So...congrats (belated as it were)...

RE: Are engineers timid?

blushYeah, some nimrod thought you were a member and posted there.

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun, I doubt you need to worry about your business head. Look at all the people who do make it in business, apparently without a clue.

Regards,

Mike

RE: Are engineers timid?

Yes the dimwit who posted a message to you in the pub ain't no rocket scientist. OH! that's right he is. Just goes to show we all have brain fades sometimes

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

I wise old man told me once, "Silence is the key to living".

I am still not quite sure what he meant. pipe

peace
Fe (IronX32)

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
You guys humble me in so many ways. You're too kind!

Pat, thank you for the invitation to your pub.

SnTMan, I've been asking the Lord about that very point! smile I hope He'll see my cluelessness, too! surprised

This week has been so busy... No positive cash flow yet but I'm working on it diligently. I networked with a Ph.D. in chemistry this week. He showed me his BMW then asked about my car, which is an Element. As I highlighted all its features, he said, "This looks like a car an engineer would drive." We have such a nerdy, utilitarian reputation no wonder we need Image Control Assistance! Intellect is not going to do The Trick!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun , kind of a coincidence there, I have been considering an Element for some time. I think they are cool, and there is really nothing like them. Disappointed they quit making them.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
SnTMan, they are a lot of fun to drive. My sister and nephew love driving it. It's got a lot of room, which always surprises people. I don't watch the market like in past years so I was not aware they stopped production. Sales may have been better had they put a V-6 in it and 6" more on the back end. It gets mushy in the mountains on steep grades. The standard is better in the mountains but it is still too mushy.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

And for the rest of the world who are over 50% of members, an element is

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

I drive a Ram.
I guess I am just out of my element.

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Pat, it's a Honda Element vehicle that was produced in Marysville, OH for several years.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

OK. We don't get them here. That styling and 'class" seems pretty unique to the US market. Dodge Nitro, Hummer C3 etc.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
I bought one because I can put my bicycle in the back easily and won't ram it into the garage, drive-in, etc. I can also sleep in it, which I have done a number of times.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

Yep The CRV is a bit small for that. That market is filled here by Land Cruisers, Klugers, Pajeros, Mazda MX7 or 9, Nissan Patrol Range Rover, Ford Teritory and a few Korean brands.

Heck I can even get my bike into the back of my old Honda Integra hatch. No chance to sleep in it though.

The classic Aussie sleep casual sleep over mobile was the Holden Sandman. They where particularly popular with Surfers and teen aged Casanovas.

They now have a cult following.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=holden+sandman+panel+van&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=t1D&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=bj7ET8niD4rAiQf-x_CnCg&ved=0CIcBELAE&biw=1366&bih=641

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

lacajun, one of the things I really like is the rubber floor. Still trying to figure out who thought it was a good idea to carpet pickups.

Buying used is not a problem for me, I don't buy new cars anyway. Currently use a 1994 Nissan pickup for my daily driver and it does fine, but getting to where I would like an auto, FWD and some rear seating now and then. The general run of SUV are not utilitarian enough for me, there's the carpet thing again:)

Regards,

Mike

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
Pat, I put my bike behind the driver's seat and sleep on the passenger side. I bought the privacy curtains and use them sometimes. Your link didn't work or Safari cannot find it.

Mike, the floor is super easy. I have had all manner of crud in it but it's never been hard to clean. Wipe and go! The most frequent comment I've heard is how roomy it is. The height in the back is another comment frequently heard. It's been great fun. The next vehicle may be a van. But, I don't ride as much now so maybe something else...

Here are a couple of pix from last summer. My brother and I took a trip in it and it was loaded.

Element Rear

Element Side

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
I need to change my social circles. I was told recently that engineers are weird, not normal, and emotionally disconnected. I don't think of all of us as those things at all. It was a blanket statement. But no amount of convincing was going to work so I stopped. I think some of those things apply to humanity regardless of occupation. With just a little thinking...

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

My social circles are separated. That is, the engineers I "hang out" with are one, and the "other" are kept separate.
I guess when non-engineers see that an engineer is posting physics questions on facebook, that person is labeled as weird, socially disconnected, and a nerd. That's the way of the world.
Give them all a few pints and they can forget about the nerdiness for a while.

cheers

peace
Fe (IronX32)

RE: Are engineers timid?

Pamela.

That is their way of maintaining their self esteem at your expense when they realise you know things so far over their head, they can't begin to imagine.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Are engineers timid?

(OP)
FeX32, my circles run together, overlap, mix, mingle, etc. I've always enjoyed bringing diverse people together. However, I make an attempt to keep things on a level such that everyone can participate. Being excluded really stinks and hurts people, which is not my intent. My experience with bitter people and a few pints is ugly, angry hatred.

Pat, I think you're correct in your lesson of the day. That idea has never crossed my mind. This individual seems to have a great need to be identified as nerdy and has made a big point of their nerd factor more than once. I believe one psychological point in play is projection, which is where I went. It seems they're projecting their own problems onto me.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

RE: Are engineers timid?

If the individual is bitter towards others, then yes usually it ends badly. That was my exact experience so I decided to keep certain individuals apart.
Also, modesty helps a lot I find.

peace
Fe (IronX32)

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