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Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

(OP)
Im looking to improve my offset header connection details, and wondered if anyone had one for a condition where the curtain wall remains continuous past a column (hss or wf).

by offset, i mean the centerline of the hss header (lintel) is set a distance away from the exterior column line.

thoughts?

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

If the connection is hidden above the ceiling then I would provide flat plate or angle cleats.

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Galambos,

It might help if you posted a sketch of your current detail.  Then we could suggest improvements.

BA

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

I have done this same thing mainly two ways many times on industrial buildings in order to support wind columns that were over top large door headers.

1). moment endplate connected outrigger with the header siting on top of the outrigger with a small tie back atop the header. Wind column would be somewhere near midspan sitting on the header

2)moment endplate connected outrigger with the header spanning between the outriggers simple span. Wind column would be somewhere near midspan sitting on the header

For your situation, option 2 here is probably more suited.
I like the endplate moment connection better than your detail.  

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

(OP)
Toad, thanks for the response.  im trying to picture a moment endplate connected outrigger.  it sounds as if the outrigger and the hss are one shop assembly. can you elaborate?

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

I understand the purpose of the angle 2X2 at the top of the tube section - to resist the induced torsion - but I would feel better with an angled gusset there.  Seems flimsey to me by my gut reaction.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Sketch is just one way I have done it.
Other way is with the header spanning (into page) b/t outriggers on columns on either side of opening.
Also, I didn't show the tie-back on top of the header, which I use to resist torsion caused by wind loading on wind columns that rest on the header

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Toad:

OP said he can't have anything below the HSS section.  Did you intend the section detail as upside down?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

M^2
Yea, I guess you could "hang" it.
But, if the header spans between outriggers than you could make it so that nothing is below the outrigger.

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

(OP)
ive been trying to justify the load on the side of the hss wall using my detail. im thinking it's a similar limit state to K1.5 and i should be fine.

I have cases ranging from vertical Vuy=2k for an HSS6x6 to 18k for an HSS20x8x3/8. I also have Vux=1.5 to 8k.

Hmmmm....

 

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

I think I prefer an HSS stub projecting out of the offset header.  The stub would have an end plate bolted to the flange of the column.  The header, stub and endplate would all be shopwelded together as one assembly.

If my description is not clear, I could provide a sketch.

BA

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Agree with BA about shop welding the outrigger to the header.  But I would assume that there are headers each side of the column.  Using his suggestion, you could cantilever the header past to pick up the next one.

My solution would be just to project a plate out from the column, and use end plates on both headers, bolted to the projected plate.  All that site welding could be avoided.  

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

BA-
I think you are more or less describing the same thing that I am only mine was all bolted.
You're idea is probably better.
In the end, it's still an endplate moment connected outrigger.

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Agree with hokie.  If the column spacing is not too great, you could use two or three span headers with cantilevers to pick up the next ones.

Sorry Toad, I missed your concept.

BA

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

(OP)
hokie, you are correct. there are two headers framing into column.

i like your idea of the endplate and bolting together, however, the two headers frame into the same outrigger and i think that would cause erection problems where the bolts are shared.

BA - good idea, however, hss lengths have already been ordered.

i also have conditions at the corners where the hss needs to continue past the column to cantilever a short distance to the building corner.

right now, i think i will use a W shape outrigger with a welded single angle conn with flange plate top and bottom to restrain the hss. im thinking that i can get away with a 1/4"-3/8" plate on the bottom.

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Well, the erection problem of Hokie's idea can be deal with using offset hole patterns in the connections.
This is done often for clip angle beam connections in a shared column web.  

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Well if you are going to use that....might as well see if you can get a WT shape to work for the outrigger.
Cutting and chipping flat to the web of a W is a pain.

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

(OP)
agreed, however, a WT wont work for all cases.

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Could you fasten the HSS header to the underside of the WF outrigger bottom flange using a couple of Lindapter bolts instead of stripping the flange and field welding the plates to the WF?  Also, could you use a larger angle that has a long enough leg to weld to the bottom of the HSS instead of using 2 angles as you show?

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Still like my idea shown in my sketch above.  Cut a hole in the side of the tube, reinforce it with an angle, pocket the outrigger right to the inside of the tube.

Advantages - Can be configured for field bolting and no field welding.  Contractor can set the beam in place, doesn't have to hold it in place.  Outrigger is hidden behind tube.

Disadvantages - Fabrication is a little tricky.  Not good for CW rotation
 

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

FWIW I liked your original detail the best, seems simple and easy to fabricate and erect. Good points Teguci.

I also have a fabricator friend I would bounce it off, every SE should have at least one steel fabricator's number in their phone...

Lots of ways to skin this cat.

Toad- Was the built-up section for wind at a curtain wall or because that was a crane? Your sketch was way better than the ones missing from most posts...

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

The header had a cap channel because the door was about 30'-0 wide.
There was a wind column that sat on top of the door header.
Although conservative, I designed a wideflange to carry the vertical load and a pair of channels (bottom one not shown in sketch) to carry the wind load.
It work out great because the siding girts on the building were channels on the same depth as the caps on the beam. Everything matched up nice.  

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

Ahhh, with those specifics, your detail seemed to work out great. Every job can have very specific architectural requirements, so I hate to generalize on steel connections on top of differing structural requirements and restrictions of building geometry. They can be an art unto themselves.

The worst is seeing an old set of drawings or going to the site and then second guessing yourself. Man, why'd I do it THAT way?? I just did that on a job that is in a building with exposed steel and has very high visibility to the public, and it was probably 10 years ago that I designed it and at the beginning of my career. Only a couple of things where I scratched my head a little...

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

yes it is much more fun to make your way onto a job site of a competitor and say "I cannot believe that #$%^#$@ $#@$% ^%#% is so %$@# that he $@#$. Oh my, what a total 23$@# %$@#%!"

Is it Friday yet?

RE: Offset HSS Header Connection Detail

How about an HSS outrigger with one header attaching to each side?  Use clip angles welded to the top of the HSS header to bolt to holes in the HSS outrigger?

This would avoid sharing of bolts and extended cap plates as well as allow a similar connection where you need the header to cantilever past the outrigger.

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