Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
(OP)
Perhaps the writer of this newspaper article missed a key part of the plan to build this facility, but it sounds like they are going to try to get a net energy gain out of a closed loop system:
http:// www.intell igencer.ca /ArticleDi splay.aspx ?e=3167065
My step dad made a very good point on why they may want to go ahead with this. If they get a "green energy" incentive they may use energy from the grid to lift the water during off peak hours (cheaper electricity prices), then feed some energy back to the grid during on peak hours at the higher "green energy" price therefore netting a profit.
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My step dad made a very good point on why they may want to go ahead with this. If they get a "green energy" incentive they may use energy from the grid to lift the water during off peak hours (cheaper electricity prices), then feed some energy back to the grid during on peak hours at the higher "green energy" price therefore netting a profit.





RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
The only bit of that article that disappointed me was the name "Hastings". Why can't these people think of new names for places?
- Steve
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
"The pumped storage facility would generate about 400 megawatts of electricity by allowing water to flow through a turbine system from the reservoir to the open-pit mine, and, vice-versa, use power generated by the down flow to pump the water back up to the reservoir to be reused and recycled through the system."
And they seem to be calling this a "green" project. While I understand that this helps the efficiency of fossil fuel plants etc to help them run at a more constant rate, it's my understanding that storage facilities still work at a loss of 20-25% (they are 75-80% efficient). Maybe I'm missing something about the definition of "green technology"?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
From fundamentals it should be obvious that pumped storage must operate at a negative efficiency.
It sort of makes sense where there is an over supply of electricity produced by big thermal plants that can't be turned on and off at the flick of a switch, or can't be turned down at off-peak times without serious repercussions on efficiency or emissions.
They are "green" because the term has no meaning, and people don't understand how pumped storage works within a larger system.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Pump store is very useful for peak shaving etc. and as such can help with the overall efficiency and even 'greenness' of the electrical network. While they do tend to pump the water up when there is surplus power, I don't think that's how they'd make their money as such.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Evaporation loss vs Precipitation Recharge
Potential contamination of water due to leachating of minerals in mine
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
These guys must be coming out of the woodwork lately, green flavor of the day, one would suppose. I looked at a project down by Houston a year ago that purports to do nearly the same thing, only using wave action in holding ponds.
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Using tailings for ballast (dam walls) may be a surface-water contamination issue, depending on how well/reliably it gets sealed. Can't really see how the pit being filled with water would be any more of a groundwater contamination issue than it already is.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
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RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
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Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
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http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
It's a cool idea, but the idea of harvesting energy from an electric motor is one of the types of a perpetual motion machine.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Best regards
Morten
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
I really do hope that the project gets the go ahead, Marmora and area could use the jobs. My pet peeve lies with journalists who are incapable of getting the facts straight. I also get a little annoyed with everyone labeling their projects as green, but that's a minor beef.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Sorry, Greg, but yes. Poorly planned use of crappy sites is what does in a lot of projects, usually way too late to do much about it. Too often, the current owner is just looking for any available dodge to get out from under EPA/Bureau of Mines or whatever your country's equivalent laws regarding mine reclamation are.
No huhu from me about pumped hydro storage, frankly it's the best megawatt storage idea I've seen with any merit and will, implemented properly, be an enabling technology for solar, wind and other renewable source energy production schemes.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
You see on the one hand you've got your energy in. And on the other hand you've got your energy out.
Then you see.....uhm....well the ratio or energy out to energy in.....errr.....
And of course there are losses inherent in the process that ..... ahhhh.....
And anyway, lot's of numbers less than 1 are negative. Yeah, that's it.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Properly designed and implemented, I have no problem with pumped water storage. The trouble with using an old mine site is that the temptation to do this wrong to save money and get a quicker payback will be great.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
I think a lot of current environmental problems could have been prevented if someone had taken a little time to consider the environmental impacts during the design phase.
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A thought just occurred to me. Could there be potential structural problems associated with filling the mine with water? Depending upon the characteristics of the geology and the structural support of the mine itself, could flooding of the mine result in problems?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Don't disagree with that, but if the pit is currently open, and the tailings uncapped, then a good thing can be accomplished. First adding sealing to the pit, and building a berm from tailing pile and capping it, could remediate the site and provide a pumped hydro storage project in a single go, which accomplishes two good things from what was a bad one.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
I believe an old mine will emit gas, which must be allowed to escape.
Filling an old mine with water will allow the gas to escape, but the water usually won't stay in the mine. It will seep to other places, unless there is a containment in the mine, which at the volumes of water you are talking about can be quite expencive.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
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I got a laugh out of the comment that because it has no fuel it will be less of a terrorist target.
Use of product voids warranty.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Yes, seal the mine, via a clay seal layer, concrete, geo-membrane, something impermeable to water so you don't get mine-contaminated water leaching to places you wouldn't want it. Also keeps the water where you do want, i.e. inside the reservoir. Your question makes it seem that you think this is a shaft mine, but it's an open pit according to the op. Quite a bit simpler to seal.
Old mines (and construction sites too) "generate gas" mostly due to oxidation of exposed rocks. Stop the oxygen, you stop (most) of the noxious gas formation. Some mines (esp. coal) also seep natural gas, but this happens most quickly when the mine is first dug, and decays over time. Some coal mine reclamation includes a gas vent system, but more commonly the gas is left to find its own way out. Once the coal is mined out, there really isn't much natural gas left anyway.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
I actually thought mines produce gas because of gas movement in the rocks. But it makes since that the decay of coal, however I don't know where the hydrogen comes from.
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines
Just a guess, but it could be that hydrogen comes from iron and water becoming rust:
Fe2+ + 2 H2O ⇌ Fe(OH)2 + 2 H+
Fe3+ + 3 H2O ⇌ Fe(OH)3 + 3 H+
It comes to mind because I read a lessons learned on how a confined space may become oxygen depleted from the rapid formation of rust (slightly different reaction but a reminder of chemical processes).
RE: Engineering is heading towards perpetual motion machines