A Bad Manager
A Bad Manager
(OP)
I have a bad, bad manager. I have decided that I will most likely leave the company as soon as I can, but need to survive until that is possible. This senior manager is almost 70 years old. I've worked with people older who were quite competent, but this one is not. The only reason I even mention age is because he uses it as an excuse for 'being forgetful.' I have been told because he is an old man, that it is my duty to make sure he is doing his job, even if it means I have to put aside production work needed to provide a work product to a Client. I am not the only one to notice that this he is having some serious difficulties, resulting in behaviors that are nothing short of shocking. This affects most, if not all of the Project Managers, of which I am one. Over the past three months or so this manager has;
completely forgotten entire conversations occurring sometimes only minutes before;
made highly inappropriate comments including ridiculing another Project Manager at a staff meeting about her accent (she is Asian), saying he thought she said, "I need a f*ck" when she said, "I need a fork;"
has made statements, or jumped to a technical conclusion, without first checking his facts even when I have diplomatically tried to stop him doing so;
claimed I did not follow company protocol for 'senior review of technical specifications' when I had;
taken credit for research or work that I did, much of it to correct or provide future reference for several of his mistakes caused by a rush to judgement.
This has lead to some very bad feelings and has put the company at risk. I have pled my case and provided proof to HR and my Boss that I am in fact doing my job properly. The bad manager makes claims that I did not do something, or did not follow protocol and I have provided emails and other proof that I had. One difficulty, however, is that this supposed 'company protocol' is not written anywhere, changes day to day, person to person and situation to situation. I have asked for a written policy only to be told that I need to be more flexible. I've tried to keep Clients happy, but find I am sabotaged by the Senior Manager's turmoil-inducing back-stabbing and by HR's reluctance to go against this individual, and by a Boss afraid to take him on himself.
So what are my options?
Give up, suck up....and get out.
Fight openly and continue to document...and get out.
Fight subversively, enlist support, and then get out taking some clients with me.
Hide from the Senior Manager as much as possible, and blast the Company's competitors with my updated resume.
The sad thing is I really like the work and all of my co-workers, with the exception of Mr. Bad Manager.
completely forgotten entire conversations occurring sometimes only minutes before;
made highly inappropriate comments including ridiculing another Project Manager at a staff meeting about her accent (she is Asian), saying he thought she said, "I need a f*ck" when she said, "I need a fork;"
has made statements, or jumped to a technical conclusion, without first checking his facts even when I have diplomatically tried to stop him doing so;
claimed I did not follow company protocol for 'senior review of technical specifications' when I had;
taken credit for research or work that I did, much of it to correct or provide future reference for several of his mistakes caused by a rush to judgement.
This has lead to some very bad feelings and has put the company at risk. I have pled my case and provided proof to HR and my Boss that I am in fact doing my job properly. The bad manager makes claims that I did not do something, or did not follow protocol and I have provided emails and other proof that I had. One difficulty, however, is that this supposed 'company protocol' is not written anywhere, changes day to day, person to person and situation to situation. I have asked for a written policy only to be told that I need to be more flexible. I've tried to keep Clients happy, but find I am sabotaged by the Senior Manager's turmoil-inducing back-stabbing and by HR's reluctance to go against this individual, and by a Boss afraid to take him on himself.
So what are my options?
Give up, suck up....and get out.
Fight openly and continue to document...and get out.
Fight subversively, enlist support, and then get out taking some clients with me.
Hide from the Senior Manager as much as possible, and blast the Company's competitors with my updated resume.
The sad thing is I really like the work and all of my co-workers, with the exception of Mr. Bad Manager.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump





RE: A Bad Manager
My advice is to help him out until he hangs himself. And if he's a bad as you say, it shouldn't take much time. This is a temporary situation.
RE: A Bad Manager
If, when he criticises you Cass, you have to defend yourself to other managers and HR, then clearly the company is not accepting that he is a problem otherwise they would be saying "Its OK Cass, we know the situation, just ignore him."
If this is the case then while this manager is obviously a problem, it should alert you to the fact that the other managers are no less a problem themselves.
At 70 years old and going ga-ga, the fact that he hasn't been put out to grass and that no one seems to acknowledge there is a problem let alone explain how the propose to handle it or why they are not handling it, either suggests he knows where all the bodies are buried or the rest are just as much a liability.
Definitely get out of there.
Sooner rather than later. The danger is that this company will hit the buffers and if you are still with them, tarnish your rep as well.
The biggest danger we face at work is when we start to think we like the people we work with and we like the work and that this is a good enough reason to put up with crap - poor pay, being over worked, bad managers and indifferent HR.
While you are busy worrying about letting co-workers down, they are probably just as busy trying to find new jobs.
You don't say but presumably they don't let this nightmare loose anywhere near clients and if that is the case it suggests some awareness but not why you have to defend yourself and not why they don't take more active measures.
If they do then sooner or later some client is going to be a victim and will start to spread the news about town; the start of a loss of respect or credibility for the company or its employees.
From other of your posts, including being asked to change your reports, this sounds like this is a company that is destined to collapse at some point for one of a number of reasons from having its reputation blackened by unhappy clients or because some one at some time will not catch one of his mistakes and it will cost badly. It may not be a slow collapse giving people a chance to get to the lifeboats, it may sink suddenly and with no survivors.
Best guess then is that the old guy will prove a past master at laying off blame onto some one else, a skill no amount of mental degeneration will weaken since it is a primitive brain stem function, not one of higher intellectual powers.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
#2 Review your company's policy about Sexual Harrassment. The rules for sexual harassment cover a lot more than sex (e.g., Hostile environment)> If you can't find a company policy, check with your State government's website.
#3 Try to limit your contact with this person. Make a request to your boss that you have difficulty working with this Senior Manager.
#4 Decide if you really want to work for a company that will not support ALL of their employees.
#5 Good Luck
RE: A Bad Manager
He tried to deny that he had seen the emails, but I countered that he had in fact responded to the emails. The problem is that he did not address any technical issues and instead launched into a personal attack. That was when I was told by HR that I should be flexible and understand that some people work differently and that the Senior PM does not like emails and to give him a hard copy. I said I did and showed an email requesting his review on a hard copy I had put on his desk. He then claimed he gave me the hard copy. He hadn't and there was ample evidence he had not, so then the argument was that I should know he gets busy and forgetful and that it was my duty to bird dog him until he got his review done. My argument back is that I was not about to excuse myself from a meeting with a Client on site to make sure he got his work done.
I'm usually fairly easy going, but this has gotten so heated I think there is permanent damage to a working relationship. It's partly my fault. I felt hopeless and out numbered. The company accountant said she could hear much of the last meeting and thought it was one of the most entertaining she's heard in awhile. She liked my "I will not let you turn me into a scapegoat by changing the protocol to suit your needs" and "if I wanted to hold someone's peepee while they made tinkle, I would have become a daycare provider" as two of my better comebacks. The thing is, it did not diffuse the issue.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
Re-reading:
this is by management?If so then they know what the problem is.
You definitely should not therefore have to defend yourself but it suggests that this being so they are not prepared to officially acknowledge or document any problems and certainly not honestly.
There is no "most likely" about it Cass, be very earnest in your search for a new job.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
If the usual fails, then maybe get more drastic, like NAMBLA bumper stickers on his car. After 70 years, people don't change real quick, no one else seems to notice a problem that can fix it, so get a few laughs before you head out the door.
RE: A Bad Manager
http://
RE: A Bad Manager
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
On the other hand, if it isn't scam, and its your word against his, you have a great way to exaggerate his problem to management.
This is the justification. He gets help early rather than later.
Either way, he is in no position to deny it.
All you have to do now is think of suitable "tasks" to do for him. A new company car for you won't get by I'm afraid, but re-doing (or claiming to have redone) lots of drawings (you just change the date and issue number and something safe into something questionable so long as it takes no real time) for example will only set the company back your time....I'm pretty sure that with some imagination you can work this to perfection.
You can always try it once and if it doesn't fly, put it down to a misunderstanding.
Note, you don't want to actually do any extra work, just appear to. Management won't know what's been done nor how long it really took.
Plus, if you then have to do the work again to correct thee mistakes, you just revert to the earlier drawing, with a new date and issue number, and make them wait for it.
This gives you plenty of explainable computer time looking for a new job.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
Remember it's a temporary situation. Those that act accordingly will benefit the most. By that I mean, mind your manners, do your job well and be patient.
That's only if he is the ONLY problem. So think about it.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: A Bad Manager
I once worked for a similar sounding manager (although not as bad as your issues). I called in sick more times in that one year than the rest of my 20+ years combined. And that was from real illness. The stress / anguish can just eat you up without you noticing.
Learn your lesson and move on.
RE: A Bad Manager
If it's worth the effort, getting the best of bad managers can be lots of fun. I'm rather lucky, in a way, where I'm at, because I hired most of the upper management while I was a Bad Manager, then went back to being an engineer. I was having too much fun with Bad Management toys, like the perpetual sanitary vent inspection used for Bad Engineers. Bad Managers need to be weeded out, just like Bad Engineers, or go back to what they were best at. Good Engneers need to be supported and protected from Bad Managers, which is much of what I did as a Bad Manager.
I'm having lots of fun with one middle manager now, Buffalo Bob. I didn't hire him, but two of the upper management that I hired did. One of his first acts was to blast me for bad engineering economics and design. Five months later, when project is finished early and on budget and beats performance requirements, Buffalo Bob goes to the job site to have his picture taken to show the good work he is doing. Job started years earlier, back when I was leaving Bad Manager position to do this particular job (because it was the most fun mechanical engineering job available, as "senior" I have right of first refusal on most projects)and hiring my replacement. Buffalo Bob shows off his accomplishment to his managers. His managers ask me if it bothers me he's taking credit for my work. I really don't care about credit as long as the paycheck clears, and decide to give him even more credit. I discuss a potential project with him, which was discarded in favor of the one he just took credit for (primarily for engineering economics), and Buffalo Bob runs back to same management to show his brillaince. The laughter was still going on when he left the front office. He no longer stops by the office, and when he does I like to play the excerpt from Joe Dirt where Buffalo Bob gets arrested, or just play "Buffalo Girl".
Along with lowered expectations, if someone is going to be hurt, I'm not going to be the last one. One small step above the "pictures with farm animals" method, but it has worked for me.
RE: A Bad Manager
Sorry, Cass, I couldn't resist, given one of the earlier threads...
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: A Bad Manager
He wasn't old, but he was crazy.
The company was an ESOP, and he must have taken a big piece of it; it was apparent that they couldn't get rid of him.
I was happy to leave.
I'm not seeing any upside whatsoever to you staying where you are, Cass.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: A Bad Manager
Management was ineffective even after I backed them into a corner. BTW, the same corner I had been backed into through their ineffectiveness in handling those five men. They responded with platitudes and intentions. I waited to see their plans unfold.
Their plan was teamwork training and that was it. I learned the first day the two main problem children had been two and three times prior. The instructor remembered them and brought the subject up! The instructor sized up the crowd immediately and accurately zeroed in on the political relationships. In talking with him, it became obvious that he knew I was the real target for those five men. I was their target for a lot of reasons one being management's ineptitude in handling them initially and over the long haul.
I began looking for another job and continued to do my best for them, which included correcting mistakes on hundreds of drawings subversively created by one of those five. If I hadn't, the project would have fallen behind because those were construction drawings. If management cannot make the hard decisions about bad employees, they are not qualified to make good decisions about me.
They've shifted those men around often but they are still there. Shifting them around indicates there are problems to this day, which is exactly what I would anticipate.
RE: A Bad Manager
If you need something reviewed send it to him. If a review doesn't come back, do nothing further.
If someone asks "where is that thing?" reply via e-mail that "I'm waiting for BM's review." Copy BM.
In your new found free time, look for a new job.
RE: A Bad Manager
You really need to be looking and you really don't want to have to take whatever comes so your objective has to be to survive long enough so that you can find a good job that not just gets you out of there but lets you also claw back some of the distance lost from the last job.
I'm afraid that means sucking it up as best you can for a while.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
My mother had a saying. Two wrongs do not make a rite. My mother is a wise woman I think.
Do not degrade yourself in this. Step back, calm down, refresh your memories on the joys of fairly recent unemployment and consider why things are developing the way they are and what you can do that is productive and what might b counterproductive.
The real solution may well be to get out, when and if you can, but in the meanwhile would you rather find a way to keep this reasonable or flip burgers, and even that supposes there are openings for burger flippers at the moment.
Consider why people have asked you to look out for him.
Consider why they appear to do nothing about him. Well in fact they have, they asked you to look out for him and that is not currently working well. How will they allocate blame for that. Even 10% your fault, 90% his is still partly your fault in their eyes.
It seems they are well aware of the problem but do not choose to handle it in the way you think fit. I am sure hey have their reasons, be they good or bad. A few possibilities are:-
1) Maybe he has been there since Moses played full back for the Arabs and they don't like to fire long serving employees.
2) Maybe he did very good work for them until recently and they respect past performance.
3) Maybe he does know where some figurative bodies are buried.
4) Maybe he owns shares.
5) Maybe his wife owns shares and or is family with the owners.
6) Maybe he is terminally ill and hey know it and don't want to crush him a few months before he becomes severely incapacitated.
7) Maybe they are testing your ability to cope.
8) Maybe they can't see the problem.
9) Maybe they see you as the problem.
10) Maybe they are sexist and think it must always be the womans problem or blame it on hormones and mood swings. Not agreeing, just saying.
11) Maybe they are exceptionally compassionate.
12) Maybe they are exceptionally stupid.
13) Maybe he has a contract that expires in a year or two and at this stage they would sooner wait it out than breach a contract.
14) Maybe he has a moderate time to go to get major increase in retirement benefits.
15) Maybe they lost a lot of employees retirement benefits in the GFC and feel guilty and are giving him time to rebuild benefits.
16) Maybe they faced liquidation and he voluntarily offered his retirement benefits to help keep them afloat.
Bottom line, who knows, certainly not you. Try to find out. Acting like a sleuth won't help. Acting like a caring concerned compassionate confident might.
I don't know really, just playing devils advocate throwing a few thoughts out there.
Oh Dan. One major difference here is the OP did not start with using prejudicial insulting names like "ninja claws" and does show some attempt to understand and solve the problem.
As a result of my recent move to care for my mother, I am participating in group sessions carers run by a Dementia Respite Day Care Clinic and one on "Living with Memory Loss". One of the real issues identified is that in early stages the sufferer realises it is happening, and the smarter they are the more they themselves see the problem and it frightens the living daylight out of them.
This typically leads to several of a list of symptoms or reactions, these being:-
1) Fear.
2) Resentment.
3) Anger.
4) Depression.
5) Anxiety.
6) A tendency to cling to someone they trust.
7) Overcompensation.
8) Insecurity.
9) Violence.
10) Denial.
11) Inconsistency as various combinations of the above have their influence.
The biggest problems tend to come from a fear of loss of respect, personal security, independence and dignity.
Also, they lose their memory, not their intelligence. They can be as sharp as a tack on problem solving, so long as they remember what the problem they are working on actually is.
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
Someone actually awarded a star to someone for recommending ridicule of someone showing symptoms of early stage dementia.
What level of ridicule do we recommend for the blind, the deaf, Down Syndrome, Paraplegics, bi-polar etc etc.
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
1. yes. He actually has more years than the equity owners still working full time.
2. yes. It's been very recent that this behavior started, and seems to have come on suddenly
3. yes. I've heard hints about 'stories'
4. possibly
5. close. His wife is a valuable technical contributor with a long business relationship with the firm.
6. doubtful. Physically he seems to be in excellent condition, eats healthy, exercises and is relatively trim.
7. no. I failed right off the bat. There would have been no need to continue the test for a week.
8. maybe, or they don't think the problem is as big as I think it is.
9. possibly, at least in my reaction to the perceived threat.
10. not likely. This is the first place I've ever worked where the majority of the technical staff is female.
11. no, unless it is the first time
12. no. Smartest group I think I've ever worked with.
13. do not know
1 do not know
14. could be
15. maybe
16. Not liquidation, but a shortage of cash due to an expansion. I could see him offing to extend credit, for profit.
Alzheimer's, dementia or aphasia occurred to me because it is very much like my own mother. She takes medication for it , but is still very forgetful. My mother was ditzy her whole life, though and her condition did not come on suddenly. After she had several TIA's, there was a noticeable difference and that's why I thought mini stroke. And don't beat up on maurice too much. I didn't take his comments seriously.
I guess I'll read up on Alzheimers and the like. Just reading the posts here seems to have already improved my outlook and compassion which will help me react better to his provocations. Maybe I'll find a way to diffuse the situation.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
The problem is not that Cass has to deal with him, but that management who want her to deal don't want to respect the consequences.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
- Steve
RE: A Bad Manager
Good managers will not allow this to happen because it is too disruptive for the company. They also have the responsibility to keep negative pressure off their employees. That is partially why they get paid the big bucks, in my humble opinion. Those are not easy decisions to make nor should they be. Managers should not be callous to the human condition and particularly so if that condition is beyond the individual's control. Alternatively, they should not be callous to the impact of BM's behaviors to the balance of the PMs.
If they have the internal strength, they will deal with BM. If not, they will make him someone else's responsibility, i.e., yours. That, ultimately, is your problem.
RE: A Bad Manager
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX7ur4Ey5X4
Fe
RE: A Bad Manager
Nobody wants to haul this guy out into the back pasture and shoot him. He's got a couple generations of faithful service behind him. Unfortunately, it's behind him.
Setting a "best before" date on people is unfair, especially given that our life expectancy has increased so much in the past couple of generations, but it does get rid of problems like this in a dignified way. It also clears out the senior positions and allows a little upward mobility in an organization. The really good ones can be asked back on contract: when they cease to perform or create more trouble than value, their contracts can be whittled down to zero. Weaning people off of work rather than bringing them to a sudden stop can be a lifesaver for some.
Wish I had the magic strategy for dealing with this, but I don't think it exists.
RE: A Bad Manager
TTFN
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RE: A Bad Manager
If you can point this out to his superiors, maybe they will realize they are only hurting him by handiling this situation the way they are.
RE: A Bad Manager
You have already identified your self as a trouble maker for bringing the issue up with HR & management and none of them being receptive.
You can document all you like, in fact you really should just in case, but there's not much you can successfully do with it. Even if you manage to make a case that forces management to address the situation they will probably resent you for it and eventually will probably get their revenge. Heck, even if you got evidence that allowed them to do what they wanted to do anyway they may resent the fact they needed your help.
The one exclusion is if you get enough damning evidence to get Gloria Allred or someone interested and they win you enough money to take early retirement on.
Find somewhere else ASAP, even though it's far easier said than done.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
Fe
RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
Nothing negative; it was interesting
Just a warning to others...
TTFN
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RE: A Bad Manager
Cass, I have no doubt that you are in the right. But something folks have to learn as they develop professionally, is being right isn't the only thing, or even the most important thing, about working in a group setting. How you say things is quite often more important than what you're saying. It's a hard lesson for engineers to learn.
I highly suspect that the old codger adds net value to your company. I highly suspect that his engineering deficiencies are made up for with his experience, or more likely many years worth of client relationships that are essential. I suspect he doesn't want to be removed from engineering entirely because of his self perception, and I suspect the decision to leave him in an engineering role in the company was made by people further up the totem pole, because of the value he does add.
I suspect when your superiors asked you to take on some of his work, they were expecting you to coddle the guy, because that's what he needed, but you're just not the coddling type, so it didn't work out. I suspect if you'd coddled him more, you wouldn't be in this situation at your workplace. But it's not your job to coddle some old fart who can't even do engineering work anymore!
Or is it?
We engineers like to think our job is "Design a Bridge." But it's really not. It's actually "Work With Others To Ensure A Bridge Is Designed." And since other folks are almost always imperfect, it's really "Learn To Adapt To Others Imperfections To Ensure A Bridge Is Designed." And that job requires social skills, and forgiveness, and thick skin, and telling people what they want to hear, and sometimes backing off even when you're 100% right. That's people for you.
To your specific situation, it sounds to me like you should go ahead and look for another job, but you also should consider reevaluating your approach to office collaboration a little, and come into the new job with a softer mindset. Alternately, you could transition to a related industry where the harder mindset is more appreciated or demanded, such as Construction Management.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: A Bad Manager
I did everything I was supposed to and stayed late to get information to our Client so that his contractor could stop charging him $1000/day to hold an excavation open waiting for an answer. It was not until the next Monday after the holiday weekend that I was blindsided with an email from my manager, copied to the entire ownership of the company I work for, accusing me of refusing to comply with company protocol.
My initial response was to show I had followed protocol and to remind my manager the things that were discussed and what information he had reviewed. But he denied having seen any of it and went hightailing it off to HR. The more proof I supplied that he had reviewed the work, the harder the manager hit back, "I never got it...I didn't know that was this job..I didn't know what this was for...It's your job to make sure I understand these things...You should know I don't look that closely at these things..." It was absolutely absurd but would not have been unmanageable if HR had not been dragged into the ordeal.
Diplomacy goes two ways. If you as a manager make a mistake and start an in-office conflict, and are proven to be wrong, it is your duty to make things right by appoligizing and notifying the parties you brought into the fight that you were wrong.
And the bottom line, this 'Senior Review' that he was so concerned with, when he finally under the direct scrutiny of HR reviewed my work, had not one material comment other than to suggest I should have used a different specification number than the one I used. He was even wrong about that.
Disrespectful. Yes. That's what happens when management not only screws up, but refuses to acknowledge their own screw up and attempts to affix blame on me. They lose the privledge of my respect.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
Fe
RE: A Bad Manager
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
Cass is pretty close to the female equivalent of Marmaduke Surfaceblow.
I mean that as a compliment.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: A Bad Manager
You are 100% accurate!
RE: A Bad Manager
In fact, going to them probably stiffened everyone's resolve, since now the issue was on paper and recorded for posterity. So now the management had to get their stories straight.
If the owner has the desire to keep this manager, HR is not going to help your case.
RE: A Bad Manager
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
thread732-235079: Helpful/Friendly Senior Turned Over-friendly
Seriously though Cass, I wish I had a really good suggestion for you. Taking the ethical/moral high road gets tiring after a while. When people are using unethical/immoral etc. techniques to attack you, or at least disadvantage you it's tricky not to return fire.
Playing it by the book seems to leave you open to retribution, if not now then later. So at some point you end up having to find other employment anyway.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
Gee didn't we all have fun in those days....
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
I am sorry to say as this thread evolves whether your right or wrong, I can't see it ending well for you.
Maurice
Some very appropriate site rules prevent me giving the appropriate answer to your last rant.
My mother is in early stage dementia and I have given up full time work to care for her. I have been to every available workshop on the issues of care and recognition of dementia so actually I do have quite a bit of first hand experience with it. Any aged care specialist would call you out for abuse of the aged by your reply starting with the stuttering trick. YES THAT IS RIDICULE and is not appropriate toward anyone. If you treated my mother that way you would be in need of a very high capacity for self defense. If I saw you treat a colleague that way, there would be a formal complaint from me.
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
I can really feel your pin. Several times in my life I've had managers who have made my life miserable. Is there any way you can arrange to simply not work with the guy?
RE: A Bad Manager
You are so right. Things are not going well. Being right, and with proof, has been completely overlooked. I have now had several discussions all centering on 'following procedure.' Here's how it usually goes,
Bossman: Let's talk about you not following procedure.
Me: I think we have established multiple times that I, in fact, followed procedure.
Bossman: Yes, but you did not make sure the communication was received.
Me: We established that the Senior Manager DID receive the emails.
Bossman: But he was expecting a phone call or a personal visit at his desk. He did not see the email you sent.
Me: He DID see the email. He responded to to them.
Bossman: Maybe this company is different from what you are used to. We like to give everything that goes out the door several reviews to make sure there are no mistakes.
Me: Yes, I understand that. And my work was reviewed by the Senior Manager before and after it went out and he made not one change, technical or otherwise, of any substance. So, there were no mistakes in my work yet this is being treated like a narrowly missed accidental launching of a nuclear device at a friendly.
Bossman: You need to understand how to work with everyone's specific quirks, specifically about communication style.
Me: If we are talking about the Senior Project Manager, then why is my communication style being questioned on this project and not the others that preceded it where I learned the what level of communication was expected? I did nothing different and yet the reaction was 180 degrees in the other direction. I'm getting mixed signals.
Bossman: Let's talk about this other problematic project that is going over budget completely unrelated to the topic of this meeting.
cue Twilight Zone music.
sreid, yes there is. Find another job is the way to do exactly that.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
I just wanted to thank you for sharing your plight. My girlfriend is going through a similar situation with a manager who is out to lunch. She isn't an engineer, but works for a state DoT in an engineering department so much of the same office politics you've discussed apply.
What's really depressing is that other equal level managers are aware of this manager's general bad behavior and inconsistent levels of work expectation towards the other analysts, but believe it "isn't their place" to correct her. Advice given to my girlfriend by said managers was to either live with it and adapt, or just find another job. She is looking at the latter after a sufficient amount of time has passed so she doesn't look like a job jumper (she just had her 6 month review).
RE: A Bad Manager
If you want to continue receiving your pay cheque, I suggest you swallow a bit of pride and take a modified approach.
It is obvious this firm is loyal to the SM for whatever reason. You must accept that the situation in that regard is beyond your control and overall is not such a bad thing.
To cover your more tender regions you need to communicate in a manner more acceptable to them. Proof of email is obviously insufficient in their eyes (I know, but hey, that's how it is it seems).
Even though right, calm down, send the emails as required, copy SM and boss so boss is in the loop of the communications. Also do regular face to face reviews with SM and email to him and boss a report with a summary of the face to face as you understood it. Ask SM if he agrees with your summary, in that report. Also ask him face to face shortly after. Also confirm with boss if he thinks you have been cooperative and clear at each stage.
The report might be SM reviewed drawings XXXX and agreed all OK. Keep a copy of the drawing at that stage and leave copies with SM and boss if appropriate.
Simply appearing to enthusiastically rather than formally but reluctantly seeking SMs advice or approval might be all it takes.
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
Vendor: That's the stupidest question I've ever heard in my twenty years in this field, and I heard it already, not two weeks ago, from a guy named (my dildo boss).
;---
The dildo had me making tables of problems, in a specified format, then complaining about the format and rearranging the columns, daily, when that required an eraser. We never did get around to actually working on any of the problems.
He was a legend in a big company. When he went on vacation, people would call us to dig out and process papers he was sitting on, because he was apparently incapable of making a decision.
;---
You seem to be dealing with an entire cadre of legends like that.
You need to get out. No amount of kowtowing will satisfy them.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: A Bad Manager
Today I believe we may have lost the second accountant in the 6 months I've been there. That's writing in the sky, not just on the wall.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
You're probably on the chopping block short list, and that won't look well on a resume.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: A Bad Manager
And:
Adopting their "acceptable" communications style will do no good. You need to adopt a hybrid approach.
Why?
It may be acceptable to them for you to phone or have face to face chats but unless they have CCTV or hidden recording gear, and you can access it, you are being asked to do away with whatever record keeping you currently have and thus expose yourself even more to the criticisms they want to make and to have no evidence to support your claims.
They did not say:
"Yes, fine Cass, by all means keep sending the emails and making sure you get replies, but we think it would help the current situation if you would follow up with face to face discussions or even call him and discuss what you've said. If something changes, then by all means send a confirmation email and ask for a reply, but again, follow up with verbal communications."
And there is nothing wrong with suggesting that an actual conversation is a good idea. It is a mistake to assume emails or memos are a satisfactory way to communicate. They make good records but are often a poor way to reach understanding.
But it seems they are suggesting that you rely exclusively on deniable verbal communications.
Now it is true that some people don't work well with emails and memos. Some people really do work better and communicate better by the old fashioned way of talking. But if decisions are made and directions given, then these must be evident in some form of record.
So even if they haven't said keep on emailing, it would be my advise to make it a habit to email, to phone and discuss, to request an email response and include references to verbal communications in the emails.
You need the records to protect yourself.
It will help a great deal if you start talking to the man even if that is difficult. It shows you being helpful and willing to do what it takes.
I doubt they would be so foolish as to require you to keep no written records - but two bean counters jumping ship is indeed a sign that all is not well and you just need to last until you get a new job.
I hope you are looking for a job anyway.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: A Bad Manager
Purely my opinion of course, but her superiors are giving her a ration of (mmrmhfmm) to send her a message to find a new place to work. They've decided they can afford to lose her. It's time for Cass to jump ship before things get worse. If she leaves before they lay her off, then she might at least get some good recommendations out of the breakup.
Then again, she's at the tail end of the recession, so it might not be a horrible idea to let them lay her off, collect unemployment for a year or two or however long Obama's letting you do that for nowadays, and go get a Masters degree or something. Job market should be stronger when she gets out, and she'll have the experience as a leg up over all the other kids popping out with Masters degrees and no work skills.
/shrug
Time to hit the bricks, Cass.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: A Bad Manager
Cass has just returned to the workforce after her last layoff. Not sure she would want to be in the unemployed line again this soon.
She is in a bad situation, but hopefully she can ride it out until she can find another job.
We all go through phases in our careers where we get the bad manager. You can either adapt or move on.
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: A Bad Manager
"I'm just sending this email to confirm our conversation where you said 'yada, yada, yada'."
Or something like that. It's still no guarantee though.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
It seems pretty clear from her last couple of posts that she took the approach of "I'm right, now you guys choose who's side you're on" with her management, and they unsurprisingly chose the old timer instead of the new upstart, despite how "right" she may have been. Even in engineering, relationships are very important. That's a hard lesson to learn, but the important thing is to learn it for next time.
Being nice to people goes a long way.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: A Bad Manager
You never know who is right. You always know who is the boss.
I put my resume on Workopolis for less than that.
RE: A Bad Manager
Have you thought about doing a movie treatment? They have made movies called Bad Lieutenant and Bad Teacher; Bad Manager shouldn't be far behind. I'm only asking 5% for suggesting the idea
TTFN
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Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
RE: A Bad Manager
When that plant manager moved to another plant, he sent an email to the whole plant, which was so interesting I kept it. He wrote about the problem people essentially admitting he didn't do his job by getting rid of them. In that sense, he was not a strong individual.
The problem isn't necessarily the BM. I view him as a symptom of the larger problem of management unwilling to handle an undesirable situation with BM. Sometimes, you have to have a BM or get off the chamber pot.
RE: A Bad Manager
I had not thought about a movie. That's not a bad idea. I even know the character model for the Bad Manager. I saw an old TV show (Andy Griffith) over the weekend and the Bad Manager is JUST like Floyd the barber. Lovable but inept. I'll have to come up with a suitable character for me. Nothing springs to mind right now, but I'll work on it.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
Says Pat while ducking for cover
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: A Bad Manager
lacajun, I had to retype this twice, I was laughing so hard. Nice setup, good punchline, A+ for comic genius.
Cass, I haven't replied, and still can't formulate one, as I think I see both sides too well, ala Pat. Keep your head down, document like crazy, and update the resume. Like all BM's this too shall pass.
RE: A Bad Manager
TTFN
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RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
Compliments to you, too!
RE: A Bad Manager
The closest personality/character I thought of is Hunter in Disclosure. Kinda quiet, doesn't take over the discussion, but when she jumps is, it's usually a cutting, sarcastic remark that's right on target. Capable but invisible. That's more my office style. I think it usually surprises people when I fight right back. I guess it's the fighting style that I should change.
example;
Me: Does every piece of this (drawing) require an arguement?
Loudmouth leader: We are people with strong opinions.
Me: I think you are mistaking snap judgements for rational thought.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
Fe
RE: A Bad Manager
While it may not do any good for your career, don't change who you are. :)
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: A Bad Manager
What's wrong with your communication?
RE: A Bad Manager
My last 3 jobs have had situations similar to that described in OP. Describing them may provide an insight to how it can work.
1) Work on a project and coddle a person with terminal brain cancer who had made a significant previous contribution to the company. This one was quite a challenge to do in a way that acheived anything worthwhile on an important project while dealing with some bizarre decision making processes. End result was a project that got run into the ground and another victim of cancer ufortunately. At least in this case I had the support of others,so didn't get run down with it, and in fact achieved a lot through respect gained and the ability to work at a level above my years to carry someone else. I learnt a lot from this project including how the application of bizarre thought processes can sometimes create brilliance.
2) Accountant running an Engineering company making Engineering decisions. Best moment was being taken upstairs to the engineering office to be knocked down a peg in front of the team. The description of perpetual motion / free energy in front of an audience that saw it for what it was didn't quite acheive the desired effect. My comment of 'why are you making _______ when you have discovered the holy grail of free energy' did not exactly help
BUT I let my work speak for itself. I had the respect of the rest of the team for standing up to the boss, got things sorted out that needed to be done, tried to fix it from inside and then left. I left on very good terms as I would never want to burn any bridges. Having kept it touch I wish I had stayed on in some ways but trying, then leaving was the catalyst for a lot of the changes that have improved the company.
3) Much the same as above. Starting a review with the phrase 'I am over it' was a little fun and probably best left to after the salary reveiw. Once again I had let my work speak for itself and had tried very hard to fix problems from the inside. What was interesting is the comment of 'no-one has ever complained, yet we know this problem exists, but not how big it is'. Sometimes people cannot see what is in front of them and need a fresh set of eyes to enlighten them. So 6 months of trying to fix the issues and now I am leaving.
From all of my experiences, the chances of finding obstacles such as this are high. Letting your work speak for itself, gaining respect through this, having respect for others but still speaking your mind can be a challenging game to play, but if you have the best intentions and keep it from being personal, then you should come out better than just keeping quiet.
And then you leave.
Craig Pretty
RE: A Bad Manager
Re Rosanne Barr, I was just messin with ya.
Maybe Harry in Harrys Law or Olivia in Law and Order Special Victims are more fitting characters. Strong forthright up front no BS types.
Craig. Last 3 jobs, maybe you need to determine the only common factor in 3 out of 3 cases.
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
I have been debating whether I am the factor myself sometimes.
My first job was a 10 year excercise with a very good experience overall. A good company with good people and a strong work ethic. I only mentioned that one from the point of view that geing asked to coddle someone can actually turn out for the best if done well. It may also be considered flattering that you are being asked to do it, even if it appears demeaning.
The last 2 jobs I think the common factor is my expectations based on the previous company and an inability to settle for mediocrity. I have pride in my work and want the entire organisation to be working to its best. I also know from the benefit of hindsight that I did not do my due diligence on each company before accepting the role. I now interview the company as much as they interview me.
My example was more about how easy it is to find these issues, how you can work within them to improve things and possibly if you can't be fully satisfied with your work you can move on.
I may be young(ish) and naive but I think there is the perfect job out there and if you get that magic team together the sky is the limit. Heres hoping.
Craig Pretty
RE: A Bad Manager
The few words uttered that sum up what all engineers do and ever will. Your limit is null.
Although, I hope literally that the sky is not our limit. The ends of the universe is more appropriate.
For Craig, it seems that a bit of an attitude in portraying your work as superior to others may be a problem. Even though your work may (or may not, i dont know) be better you have to put yourself into the other persons shoes first and then speak up.
I too am young. It is also very common for young engineers as you do. Lots of them with attitude towards others ect.
(I say none of this fro controversy, but for your thought)
Fe
RE: A Bad Manager
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: A Bad Manager
And by problem, one example was that the proposal went out in February but I didn't get started on the project until late April. My boss used that as a strike against my productivity. When I looked back in the file, I got started on the project after the contract was signed in mid April. I am not allowed to begin work until a project is under contract. So again I follow protocol and it is used against me without anyone actually checking the facts. That's a corporate structural deficiency that cannot be repaired in my book.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
I also received criticism about 'multi-tasking.' When I asked what the complaint was specifically, it was that the more jobs I work on at once, the slower they all seem to go. My response was that was the definition of multi-tasking. I compared it to construction where you increase scope, but do not increase the schedule, it is referred to as project acceleration and it is generally understood that there is a cost impact to add personnel or pay overtime. I figured I didn't have to add, "so which one are you offering." I'm salaried. I already know the answer to that one.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
Would Elvis agree?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
The maxim I've heard most often in my career is, "You never admit to making a mistake nor do you say anyone else has." It's why, in my opinion, the US has arrived at this point in its history. People need truth for a whole lotta' reasons.
RE: A Bad Manager
I've been involved in and viewed second hand similar situations. From my experience, when the employee is trying to solve work problems objectively and efficiently but management is operating under a different reality (under mandate to maximize sales this month at any cost, to boost share prices or their bonus, for example), two things seem to happen:
1. Management will win. They hold most of the cards. Even if they eventually get replaced due to incompetency, their replacements will generally be as bad. I think this is because of the mandates they operate under, which aren't always in the long term interest of the company. This culture comes from the top down, IMO.
2. If you fight it and try to do your job, you will be scapegoated and forced out. If you don't fight it and join the dark side, you will lose your integrity, joy in your work, and your sense of reality. Like "doublethink" from Orwell's 1984. I've seen it in the real world, and it isn't pretty. If you must stay, you can try to paralyze your conscience with anti-depressants.
One of our customers was privately owned for many years, and was considered a desirable place to work, if you were competent. Very low turnover. Over the last 7 years, they have been bought and resold to ever larger umbrella corporations. Almost all of the good people have left, all due to the fact that management was pulling tricks like the ones you describe and many others, mostly to cover up their own incompetency and their failures at meeting corporate mandates.
I applaud your dedication to your work, but for your own sake I would advise you to keep your head down and get out just as fast as you can. Fighting would be like attacking an entire insane asylum with a banana.
To be fair, I personally find CYA paperwork such as documenting bad encounters to be incredibly distasteful. Being plaintiff in a lawsuit, similarly excruciating (although less so than being defendant). That sort of stuff is just not what I want to spend my time here on earth doing. If you don't mind as much, I would agree that you should check into the legal angle on things. It couldn't hurt you to have ammo/leverage/evidence if things turned nasty.
I don't mean to sound so vehement. You touched a sore spot, as the situation I was in actually made me physically sick due to the stress.
Don't waste your talent on a company that doesn't respect you or support you in your work. That's slow poison.
RE: A Bad Manager
Whenever you next interview for a position with another company, for god's sake don't mention this incident. All the interviewer is going to hear is "Well they fired me(I left) because one of their seniors was senile and I was right." Nobody wants that guy(girl) as an employee.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: A Bad Manager
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: A Bad Manager
I suspect that you have been identified as a trouble maker by HR and management for your outspoken behavior in identifying the source of these problems. They will not hesitate to throw you under the bus if they feel that it will be of benefit to them. Watch your step.
Document the incidents that you have described with times, dates, and the individuals involved. Keep that information on a separate disk or hard drive at home for safe keeping. You will likely never need it, but then you never know. Best to be prepared.
You should actively look for a new job NOW. Life is too short to be spent dealing with this type of dysfunctional situation.
RE: A Bad Manager
I've been broadsided by some poor managers, who came across in stellar fashion during the interview. Pressure changed their modus operandi drastically. You'll never find those until the pressure is applied to them unless they are not smart enough to not slip up during your interview of them.
RE: A Bad Manager
Point being, how others where treated and how they react or think can't always be counted on to predict how you might be treated and how you might react. You need to asses the person giving the advice as well as the advice they give.
Regards
Pat
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RE: A Bad Manager
But if you knew what you were doing, and got your work done, you could earn her respect. And away from meetings, she could be as raunchy as the saltiest of the techs.
It was refreshing (to me) to learn that she left the company about 6 months after I did, for much the same reasons. Bad management tends to taint companies irreversibly, as good managers get fed up and leave, and new employees learn to play the games of the BM that is left.
RE: A Bad Manager
Noblesse oblige, i.e., to whom much is given much is expected is applied to management. That is a Biblical principle I've often thought of in life. So many of us don't "get it" and/or think it doesn't apply. It does and we are accountable for the gifts we've been given in this life.
RE: A Bad Manager
RE: A Bad Manager
http://ww
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: A Bad Manager
JUST KIDDING! I may think like mauricestoker but i don't have the courage to actually do it...
RE: A Bad Manager