What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
(OP)
I recently quit working for a client that uses modified shipping containers as the structural "skeleton" for various structures. As a sub-contractor, I developed FEM models, designed a million different details, produced construction documents and provided construction administration for this now successful start up for over 3 years. I requested release from a non compete non disclosure agreement, they refused, so I quit, which starts a one year clock ticking until I am "allowed" to design buildings with containers again, which is fine, I need a break. To the point though, for the life of me, I can't figure out what it is that I did that could really be considered "proprietary". Nothing was patented, to my knowledge. These guys seem to think that I possess some big secret. Anyone out there ever been in a similar situation. If I design a connection for someone as a sub-contractor, do they own that specific connection design forever, if they don't patent it. Even patents expire.






RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
On a side note, I am very interested in this concept of reusing storage containers, I think you have some very valuable knowledge. I have thought this is a great future business idea and the applications are huge. I'd be interested in what you plan on doing down the road...
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
On your side note: Yes, I have at least 3 patentable ideas that I'll be developing over the next year. Not many people understand how weak these things are after you let an architect hack one up. It takes a lot of reinforcing if you don't take advantage of them correctly.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
On the side note- if you'd like to keep in touch, I am not trying to step on your toes, but this area is something I have been keen on exploring for several years. I was hoping to some day soon get a big enough piece of land where I could do something with a couple of them for a shed/garage/etc as a way to familiarize myself with them. I have seen websites out there so I know its not a brand new idea, but it seems like an area with great potential.
With all that said, if you'd like to keep in touch about this type of work and discuss it off forum, I can get you my email address or vice versa, you cannot do it on here directly for security/spam/whatever reasons. Big brother!
Best wishes either way!
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
Unless you can demonstrate that you had existing designs that were proprietary to you and modified for them, they dictated what you were to design, so they own the designs as you delivered them.
TTFN
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RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
In order to progress as a professional you have to learn from your past experiences and apply this knowledge in future endeavours.
On the flip side, if the concept was the clients one and the details were your then they should have some rights to protect their investment.
A difficult one that really should be discussed with a lawyer.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
That's been true since patents began in the mid-1750's in England right at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And, to fight it, even before 1800 some inventors did NOT patent their ideas or improvements, but simply kept them secret from their competitors. And, today, many companies still do the same.
Look at the "competitive advantage" words used just above:
"On a side note, I am very interested in this concept of reusing storage containers, I think you have some very valuable knowledge. I have thought this is a great future business idea and the applications are huge. I'd be interested in what you plan on doing down the road... "
See? Your ideas have been (immediately!) judged to have merit. And that merit is in the small details of making it work: How to attach power and light cables from unit to unit. What (and where!) to attach doors and windows to, and how to cross-connect containers for passage of people and tools and equipment. How to seal windows and air conditioners.
That competitive advantage is what the none-compete rules are written for. Morally, you'd be required to follow the agreement - because of the paragraph above.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
b> "If I use my knowledge to figure out how to keep a bunch of containers in the air, all connections and analysis coming from my desk, then what is the difference?" You were paid to do a job. You delivered construction documents, so they "own" what was done specifically for them.
c> Being a contractor does not make you a non-employee. Companies routinely circumvent tax laws by claiming that they only have contractors. If you do not have a contract that states your relationship clearly as an entity with intellectual property rights, then you operated as if you were an employee.
d> A simple test is if you had a binding nondisclosure agreement with the company to protect your property rights.
e> Another test is whether your statement of work and contract specified limitations on how the company was allowed to use your intellectual property, and who owns what.
TTFN
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RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
2. You can probably go back to work any time you want. The company will not want to fight it. If they do, by the time they do "discovery" and file motions, etc, etc - the year will be over.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
All of my contracts say that the documents I create remain my copyrighted material and that my client is granted the right to use my material for a single project only. Hopefully you didn't have a contract that gave them ownership of your instruments of service.
I would expect that the nondisclosure/noncompete addressed their intelectual property, not yours. And I doubt they could claim the mere idea of using shipping containers as structures would hold up as intelectual property. Plenty of other people are doing this as well.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
The non-disclosure agreement, which I also wrote as this was a start up company at the time, is specific to proprietary information/trade secrets.
I'm having difficulty believing that everything that I did for them is now a trade secret. I was never given any proprietary information concerning any "secrets". I have agreed to release files specific to the trade secrets when, of course, I get paid (another story). I have requested that they inform me of what is proprietary, so I can get them the info. They claim anything and everything that I did. They have all the drawings and building department required calculations for each job, just like any other client. Seems like they have enough. I'm not kidding, if there is secret, I don't know what it is.
My lawyer isn't well versed here, so I'm likely going to consult another.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
Were you developing designs for container structures prior to you contract with this customer? Where your solutions or ideas specifically related to applying your engineering knowledge to the issues of this client? Did you advise your client that you intended to use discussion and development of their project as future proprietary property.
Engineering is involved in the development on nearly every product. Rarely is it implied that the engineer is expected to receive proprietary consideration for improvements they provide to another's idea. An engineer may have not thought of the wheel, but we darn sure made it better, without continuous recognition. I have used several contractors over the years. I have appreciated most of their input and allowed their involvement in all relevant project communications. In only one case has a contractor considered their work above the overall project. This contractor contacted my clients directly and offered services excluding our participation and taking credit for significant improvements in the overall designs. Several of my clients contacted me immediately. I terminated this contractor and continue to have long term relationships with my clients. The contractor bounced from job to job for roughly two years, and no longer practices engineering. Not by my direct action, but purely as a result of his reputation.
Just be careful. Sometimes the knowledge gained is the only long term payment. If you what to develop you own proprietary design or intellectual concept, then dream up your own wheel.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
How many design firms or contractors are working with shipping containers? It would seem that your limitation is specifically regarding the area of design you were providing. You cannot develop a competing product or work directly for their competitor. That leaves an awful lot of other options.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
It's as if I was not allowed to quit, for any reason really. I didn't have a two week notice clause anywhere.
But, the answer to my question still evades me. What exactly is a proprietary engineering method? If I had strengthened a load path with a TS column in a stack of containers, then am I never ever allowed to strengthen a stack of containers with a TS column? Or do I need to use a different member than the one I used previously? Where, exactly is the line drawn? What I'm getting at here is that I provided basic, structural engineering services for a client, none of which were for what I see as "trade secret" stuff. It's what we all do, engineer it. Design it as simply and efficiently as you can. These were all unique custom design jobs, not development of a "system" for using containers. I really want to understand exactly what I did that is truly proprietary so I can honor my agreement with them and with anyone else I may work for or collaborate with.
And, if you are still reading, I thank you sincerely for your attention and/or contribution to this discussion.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
Some examples are Side-Plate and Corebrace. I have read some of their literature but have no personal experience. In my experience these are expensive alternatives for special conditions.
Good luck with you situation.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
IMHO repairing your relationship with your client will go a long way. Again good luck.
http://www.FerrellEngineering.com
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
Are the designs you provided the same as any reasoble engineer would do it in the same situatio. If yes the I cannot see how it is proprietary information.
Is the idea of using the shipping containers yours or your clients. If it is your clients idea then I can see how they could justify the idea as proprietary information.
I cannot see how a non compete could be used to prevent you practicing engineering and excercising your engineering knowledge.
But as I said I am not a lawyer.
That said, you would have a very volatile business if it was based purely on one singe unoriginal idea. Use the year to expand your spread of projects and clientelle and this will give you a good background upon which to explore the possibilities of your own ideas.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
Connect's example was one I was thinking of when I first read your post. I think to prove something is patentable or even proprietary there has to a level of uniqueness and sophistication above and beyond what a typical solution may be. Otherwise, Connect would have patented every moment and unique connection he has ever designed. His side plate example shows you what is probably required to get a structural detail patented, it is way above and beyond your standard connection and there was presumably a lot of testing involved as you could not rely on standard calcs. Well even AISC's shear connection design relies on significant testing, but they do not trademark their work thank goodness...
I have designed all kinds of connections that I thought were just awesome, but truth is they have all been used before. Give several structural engineers the same problem and you'll probably get the same 2-3 details. Reinforcing these containers using HSS, plates, extra welds, and developing these details are a normal part of that type of business and probably similar solutions that other engineers are using for other companies. We all have typical details in our libraries for situations we encounter all of the time, and they are all probably pretty similar.
Now you cannot go down the street to company B who is doing the same thing and divulge everything you learned, at least not for a year (non-disclosure AND non-compete violation). In that unique business I don't even see that being an issue, there probably is no company B down the street. I would also think legally any details in CAD, any actual calcs or FEA models are THEIR property, they paid you for that work product and they own it. That does not mean you have to submit to a Men in Black mind eraser device, but you'd have to recreate that physical work (over this coming year, you have the time). I did not forget the details all my previous companies used, I simply recreated them and calc'd them out for my own. This is how structural engineering as a profession works.
NOW- I will dream up an example. This company had you develop some type of connection system that to everyone's knowledge had never been done before, especially not by your competitors. You do calcs, FEA, etc., and then you guys go in the lab and test this design to prove it works. Now you have something proprietary and patentable I would think, and this would be completely off limits. Now if they did not patent it, and one year went by, and you got clearance from an attorney, then....
Like everyone else said, consult an attorney, tread lightly for a year, and use it as pencil sharpening and idea time... I think the non-compete portion of the contract is what keeps you from doing this type of work for a year more than the non-disclosure.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
I can't fully express my appreciation for everyone's sincere advice on this.
a2mfk-Yes, that is exactly how I have been feeling. I did come up with some really incredible solutions to some really funky problems, but it was straight up structural engineering. And I'm sure if the problem were given to someone else, they would have ended up with a similar solution. There is a chance that they have pursued patents on some of my ideas, but doubtful. The proprietary engineering method for them was to hire some guy on the internet and claim his work as there own, I'm not joking, and they will miss me.
I have no problems taking a break from containers for a year. As I mentioned earlier, I put the "great" ideas in my back pocket as I saw this day coming. And it takes me about half an hour to construct an FEM from scratch for a container, so no biggy there.
I'm sure not happy about giving them any files beyond what they already have, but if I do eventually get paid, then I suppose that will happen. They have a long history of paying when they want if at all, which makes their attitude that much more annoying. I actually requested the noncomp/nondisclose be dropped when they were 8 months behind on invoices and they blew up like yosemite sam, so I waited another year and a half till they paid it off at their leisure. I hope my interactions with future clients aren't this dramatic. Thanks again to all for the time on this.
RE: What is a proprietary structrural engineering method?
ouch that had to hurt the finances!
I would think that the length of time to get paid could be a cause to claim that the contract between you was broken. but once again - not a lawyer.
The only thing I would say is dont wait that long to get paid next time.
In a years time I really hope you drive them out of business.