Company A and Company B quote?
Company A and Company B quote?
(OP)
We were approached by company A to prepare some preliminary drawings for a small office building. The job consisted of running quick calculations and preparing some drawings so the job could be estimated by a fabricator. We quoted company A a small fee to perform the work and get them the information they required (which would take 3-4 days to complete). We submitted a quote to company A and never heard from them again.
Company B comes to us with the same job as company A. We give Company B the same quote to do the same work as company A. Company B gives us the go ahead to perform the work. We complete the work and give a bill to company B (it takes a little longer than estimated but that's not their fault) and company B pays the bill. Everyone is happy. Company B knows we were in contact with Company A.
If the job goes forward, company B will be paying us to complete the job.
Now we get a call from company A to go ahead on the preliminary drawings for same job we just did with Company B.... and there is the dilemma.
Do we charge company A the agreed to price or do we give a credit to company B and split the bill between the two companies? What would others do in this situation? It's unfair to only charge B and I believe it's unfair to the owner (who is getting quotes from Company A and B) to charge 2x for services that were only done once.
Company B comes to us with the same job as company A. We give Company B the same quote to do the same work as company A. Company B gives us the go ahead to perform the work. We complete the work and give a bill to company B (it takes a little longer than estimated but that's not their fault) and company B pays the bill. Everyone is happy. Company B knows we were in contact with Company A.
If the job goes forward, company B will be paying us to complete the job.
Now we get a call from company A to go ahead on the preliminary drawings for same job we just did with Company B.... and there is the dilemma.
Do we charge company A the agreed to price or do we give a credit to company B and split the bill between the two companies? What would others do in this situation? It's unfair to only charge B and I believe it's unfair to the owner (who is getting quotes from Company A and B) to charge 2x for services that were only done once.





RE: Company A and Company B quote?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
However, I don't think that ownership of the documents was ever discussed. We submitted a quote based upon the work required and never really discussed the ownership of the documents. They signed our quote and sent it back. The drawings provided have no letterhead.
In fact, what is odd is the fact that we received the exact same architectural documents from company A and company B. However, company A and B are required to develop their own architectural plans.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I'll leave alone the question of why the owner is paying two companies to do the same, identical, work. To me, that's a bigger source of mispent money than anything that arise from Company A paying you to do the calculations again.
TTFN
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
The owner is looking for an accurate price to construct the building. He has asked 3 companies to give him quotes. Two of the three companies have contacted us (randomly) to perform the work. I have no idea what engineering company the other company used to develop their quote (if they even engaged one).
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
When I've been in this exact situation, I have taken the second job and been totally scrupulous about not referencing a single piece of paper or computer file that belongs to the first company. A couple of times I was able to improve on the first design by doing it over (I really can't help what I remember), and I absolutely did not provide the improved result to the first company. Once, doing the job a second time uncovered a safety flaw that I missed the first time around. I got a letter from the second company authorizing me to share the improvement with my other client--if they hadn't said yes then I don't know what I would have done, thankfully I didn't have to cross that bridge.
David
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
If each company provides you with exactly the same data and requirements, then each presumably has a legitimate right to require a quotation and take up that quotation and each has acquired the data as part of the bidding process from the client. They may have had to pay for the bid documents.
Thus it should not matter if you have two companies, three (it may be a three bid process) or even a dozen quotes to prepare and may get as many orders.
To the extent that each company has costs associated with bidding for the main contract and one of those costs is the work you will do, that is fair enough and each is entitled to have a fair opportunity.
It might be that each could choose independent sub-contractors and it might be that you would not get the work from any one of them. Or you might win the work from all of them.
Unless any one of them has imposed any special clauses precluding you from multiple bidding and multiple contracts, go ahead.
The only thing to do is play fair.
By that I mean that if they all call for exactly the same work, it doesn't matter who first pays for it, they are all entitled to pay for it. You can re-do the work each time if you like, but why? Simply print off the same results for the next person to give you an order.
But: by playing fair I mean that if you expect to make further money on the contract from the successful bidder, then each must be given an equal quote at each stage. You cant quote one a different price for the same work expecting to get an advantage later on; at cost for this stage and with a premium at the later stages....
The only exception is if any one of them imposes a different interpretation on the requirement and you bid against that interpretation. If there is an advantage in this, fine but you do not have the right to introduce a similar innovation in any other bid (unless it is your innovation reached in equal circumstances).
You did the original quote to each of these companies at your cost.
You might not have won the work from any of them. You are then out your costs.
This is swings and roundabouts. In this case you have been able to sell the same commodity twice. Good.
What would be unfair would be to charge the second company simply for the printing out costs where the first company has paid all the non-recurrent costs simply because they got their order in first.
What you can do is look at how often this situation occurs. You might then decide that if every time you go round this loop you get on average 1.5 times the single order value that you can quote a better price to each company that requests a quote. You might then get a legitimate advantage over your own competitors.
I'd say this is par for the course in all sorts of disciplines.
I can't count thee times I have had to issue the same proposals against the same requirement specifications from any number of different main contractors.
Its a fact of life.
The fact is each quote cost me money. But if I bid one, I bid all. Any one might get the business with me or with out me.
I don't play favourites.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
It would appear that Company A and Company B will be competing for the project based on your preliminary design. If they are both clear on your involvement, I would approach them and get them to share your fee as well as the documents, since you have no plan to change the design for Company A.
Disclosure is the key to maintaining your relationship with both companies.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
This is one of those VERY rare times that I find myself disagreeing with you.
Work that you do for Company A is between you and them. Work that you do for Company B is between you and THEM. Neither has a right to know even the existence of a relationship between you and the other one. Saying to Company A "hey this is exactly the same bid packager I quoted for Comapny B, we can work out a special rate" would be a HUGE violation of the right to confidentiality that Company B has every reason to expect. What if Company C hasn't told Company A and B that they are both bidding on the project? You telling one that the other is bidding could even open you up to price fixing charges.
David
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Two customers ask you for the same item. You charge each full price. You don't even think twice.
Why should it be any different just because your item is a design?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Ron
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Maybe you should tell Company A that you cannot perform the job for him as it would be a conflict of interest, having been retained by another company for the same work.
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Let's move to my field, Company X knows that I work for Company Y. Company Y knows I work for Company X. Let's say that I'm THE GUY to look at field facilities choices in low pressure unconventional field development. If Company X asked me to do a facilities study for a potential new field that Company Y has also asked me to do a facilities study, then I absolutely could not tell either of them even the fact that I was doing the study for the other. Violating that trust would let the each of them know who they will be bidding against and could swing the price of a deal by several million dollars--I could easily end up in court over that. Same deal here on a smaller scale, even if you KNOW that the two companies know about each other you can't tell the other unless your client has directed you to tell the other. Getting that wrong can be really expensive.
David
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
One extreme example of one aspect of this.
If you buy a book, you don't expect discount depending on the numbers sold. There might be a price calculation made by the publisher re cost, price, volume sales and profit, but the publisher will do his sums based on maximising the bottom line, not equal share of costs between customers.
If someone pays you for work, they own that produce and they certainly own their input into that. When you work on something together and ideas bounce around and evolve, kinda like a thread here (how much is this answer dependent on reading all the previous answers), it becomes very difficult to attribute ownership of some aspects. You have to seriously ask yourself, did I already know that and even more difficult, would I have thought of that without the influence of A.
Our Trade Practices Act requires that you treat all customers equally, but also that you do not collude or fix prices. Your antitrust laws may differ somewhat, but I expect not to much.
You must treat all parties equally otherwise here you are guilty of restrictive trading and anti competitive activities.
You cannot sell someone else's property, intellectual or otherwise without their express permission.
You cannot breach confidentiality if it is stated or even implied. I think in this case it certainly is implied.
It will be difficult to get permission without some level of breach of confidentiality. Even asking "hypothetically" has an implication that compromises to some extent the confidentiality unless it is written into terms and conditions as a standard clause known to be there every time even if there is no potential third party.
Bottom line, do the work for the second customer being careful not to use the first customers IP, but the exact same question very often gets the exact same answer as the calculation is obvious to someone of your skill level. You should not cut and paste as that will possibly carry over the first customers input and even your errors if they exist. This my, one, get you caught, and two,is not doing the work the second customer paid you to do and to which he is entitled to.
The experienced gained doing job one may well assist you to do job two quicker and even better, but then so might have the experience you gained on a previous non related job. That is called on the job experience and is a major part of what qualifies us to do our jobs and is VERY likely the major part of the reason both customers came to you.
You are entitled to charge both for the result you gave them or charge for hours reasonably required to perform the work.
You are also entitled to offer an equal discount to both if you so choose for commercial reasons, however doing that without breaching confidentiality is probably impossible now for this case.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I have a relationship with a client that requires exclusivity and confidentiality.
A new company, a competitor of the first, has approached me and the expectation has to be that their requirements will be exactly the same as the first company.
At the moment I am faced with simply ignoring them because I am not even sure I can say that I am already dealing with another un-named company (it may not be that difficult to work out who).
But this is a quite different situation to the one outlined above.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
TTFN
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Go or your life on the semantics of implied or states.
To my mind, I have contracted to your competitor STATES you have contracted to your competitor.
I may have a conflict of interest implies it but does not actually state it.
If there are only two possibilities, implying or stating that you are working for a competitor does identify the other party. If there is three or four possibilities and you all know your industry and who plays with who, you still identified them.
As to professional disciplinary committees findings vs actual ethics, well that's another story altogether.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Another little interesting bit of information is in regards to the foundation design. The soils on site are a suspect. Therefore part of the bid needs to include some form of special foundation system. Well, the preferred foundation system is a proprietary system that can only be bought from one contractor. As luck would have it, Company A and Company B both ended up at the same place. In talking to Company B we believe that the foundation contractor took the information provided to them by Company B and quoted Company A the same price as Company B. Without our information Company A could not have been quoted due to the lack of information.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
If the quote you provided to companies A and B was identical because each approached you with identical information and neither influenced the bid in any way, then each will have provided the foundation contractor with identical information when they took up those quotes.
So if the foundation company on receipt of that information has originated a solution based on identical data received, then the bids ought to be the same. But if one company has influenced the nature of the bid through original contributions to the discussion, then it is not ethical to vary the bid to the second contractor based on that original contribution.
So Company B appears to be unhappy with the fact that company A obtained an identical quote from the foundation contractor but is not, I infer, unhappy with your company for also giving identical quotes to A & B.
And the difference is, neither A nor B had any original input the to quotes your provided and the work you delivered.
Of course, at this level, the real problem here would seem to be that the client is intent on a two or three bid process and the fact that both bidding contractors have approached the same sub-contractors suggests that there are insufficient choices of subcontractors to support a multiple bid system unless the client changes the bidding instructions. Or that the sub-contractors are leaders in the field or have been specified by the client as approved contractors.
In any event, the fact that some of the sub-contractor quotes are identical doesn't matter. A & B will have to find some other differentiator if they want the final contract.
Nothing wrong with that.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Plus, at least the example I'm thinking of, we were basing our solution on a common existing product which further complicated things.
Basically, it came down to not feeding any information we got from one party to the other, and being careful not to let any ideas from customer 'A' creep across into our design for customer 'B'. However, any ideas we came up with originally, we'd use on both bids as I recall. I can't recall for sure but as this was at the bid process we were doing the work at risk so there wasn't too much of an issue of unfairly billing one or the other.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
We're in a regulated profession (at least those with PE's) so we can't really compare the services that we provide vs. selling a physical item.
And I get David's reasoning but board rules trump it. Ron's advice is along what my State board requires. I'm sure AZ is not the only one.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
--Scott
http://www.wertel.pro
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I remember reading that reference, but can't find it on the AZ BTR website. Do you have the A.R.S. number or link to the compensation information?
--Scott
http://www.wertel.pro
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Look at section 4a and 4b of the attached (at the website of NSPE which you just recommended):).
http://www.nspe.org/Ethics/CodeofEthics/index.html
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
This project is basically being delivered to the owner through some sort of quasi design-build delivery system. What is hampering my original question is the fact that for some reason, all parties have access to the same generic architectural drawings.
Company A and Company B are both contractors who, at the request of the owner, are to prepare a design-build package for a building (actually an identical set of buildings but that doesn't matter). This means they are suppose to provide a quote for a full architectural and MEP set of drawings, obtain all permits and actually build the structure.
If company A and B were developing a different set of architectural plans based upon the owners requirements then it would be more straight forward. However, contrary to what was discussed above, no ideas were bounced back an forth. All ideas on framing were generated in our preliminary framing design and foundation loading information we provided to Company B base upon the generic plans.
If I remember correctly, we quoted preliminary design and final design to both companies. Both companies got the same preliminary design number however, they got different final design numbers. However, this was because the scope of work for Contractor A was different than the scope of work for Contractor B (Contractor B wanted foundation design while Contractor A did not want to retain our services for this portion of the project).
So, in a design-build delivery system. If two separate contractors are preparing bids for a single owner on a project and they are both developing different architectural schemes and an engineering company is contracted to both contractors to provide the preliminary framing schemes and plans then the engineering company would be in conflict with the engineering code of ethics for receiving compensation for a same project from multiple sources?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I am absolutely not talking about charging two people for the same block of work. Not even close. I'm talking about doing two unrelated projects, new drawings, new calculations, new everything without referencing the first job's files, printouts, or calculations. Money from two companies for doing two tasks that happen to be working toward the same goal.
If I copied the first company's drawings and changed the title block then I would be in violation of both ethical standards and confidentiality agreements. I am talking about doing a new project for the second company which doesn't violate either ethical standards or confidentiality agreements.
David
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Engineers shall act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees.
a. Engineers shall disclose all known or potential conflicts of interest that could influence or appear to influence their judgment or the quality of their services.
b. Engineers shall not accept compensation, financial or otherwise, from more than one party for services on the same project, or for services pertaining to the same project, unless the circumstances are fully disclosed and agreed to by all interested parties.
SteelPE,
You cannot be certain that there will be a conflict of interest, but there is certainly potential for one. You have been paid for the work by B.
It seems to me that B would have to agree before you provide your preliminary design to A. If he does agree, he will probably expect a financial consideration. If he does not agree, you must tell A that there is a conflict of interest and you cannot provide the service to him.
At least, that is the way I see it.
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Companies A and B appear to be competing for the same job. Both are contracting you for proposal support on a sub-set of that job. Where is the conflict? How is the quality of YOUR work influenced? How is your engineering judgement as it pertains to your work influenced? There is no actual or apparent conflict of interest here. In fact it is essential that you provide the same information to each to avoid the potential appearance of a conflict. If you provide different information it could appear that you are attempting to favor one client.
YOU have two projects. One project for company A and a different project for company B. A and B are each preparing proposals. Neither has apparently been awarded the job. Your services are in no way pertaining to the same job. You are supporting two separate proposals. Your fee is being paid out of the overhead or proposal budgets for companies A and B, not out of the budget of the ultimate end user. Separate work for separate clients.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
If Company B, upon learning of your actions, registers a complaint with your professional association alleging that you have behaved unprofessionally in that you have violated NSPE Code of Ethics paragraphs 4a. and 4b., you will need to prepare yourself for a discipline hearing, MintJulep. Wouldn't it be easier to play by the rules?
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
So in your world BAretired, if I do anything for one client I can never do the exact same thing for another client, ever?
I spec out a 60 ton chiller with an air cooled condenser for one building because it matches the load. Now that spec is bought and paid for by that client so I can never ever spec a 60 ton chiller and air cooled condenser again?
That ludicrous.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
It all depends on who owns the drawings. The Architect that reuses drawings over and over owns those drawings. I have a drip design that I did on spec, no one paid for my time to prepare it that I have provided to 10 different clients. If a particular client needs something different (extra nozzle, etc.) then I charge them for the modifications to the design drawings and calculations, not for generating them in the first place. Then I don't use the modified drawings for other clients.
MintJulep,
You are being pretty careful to only read what you want to read. You can design the chiller from first principles as many times as someone will pay you to do it. You just can't use the work product from another client to short-cut the process and charge for doing the project from first principles. If you own the design then you can reuse it. If your client owns the design they you can't. If you reuse it, you can't charge for the hours you avoided by not having to do the work.
David
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
The value of the package is determined by the hours required to produce it the first time.
I'm not selling a design, I'm selling a license to use that end product for a specific use.
All that your unnecessarily conservative interpretation is doing is reducing your profit.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Different fields have different paradigms. What you described is exactly like you were making vehicles or designer shoes. If you can sell the same thing a million times you get the price a million times. No ethical considerations at all. My usual income stream is to sell my time (although I have one patent pending that I'll talk about in a minute). Selling the same time more than once is a violation of ethics rules.
In the case where I start selling my invention, I put $40k of engineering time into developing it. No one was paying for that time and I own the product. I sell the result of that work for $2k more than the materials cost (profit is about 18% of sales price) and until I sell 20 of them I haven't made a dime. I have no problem (beyond finding buyers) in selling thousands of these widgets and making a fortune.
But I have do a big problem changing the title block on a drawing that one company paid me to prepare and charging a second company as though I had started with a blank computer file.
David
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
It almost appears that the opinions are split down with the different disciplines. It appears that most structural engineers think that this is unethical and that most engineers in the mfr industry don't have a problem with charging twice.
We have done everything we can to make sure that we don't give one company a cost advantage over the other so far. Although I believe Company A has benefited from some of the work we did for Company B. However, I believe that this was only to Company B's advantage. This is because the site is so bad that it is having an influence on the design of the structure and foundation system. Something Company A would have never known and would have gone in with a lower bid.
In the end, this is not my decision. This is something that came up in my small office. I thought it would be fair to split the bill between the two parties involved but the other person didn't. I can definitely see how it would be a difficult call to make to Company B.
In the end we are just trying to win a job and pick up some more work. We are also trying to make sure we are appropriately getting compensated for our work to prepare the preliminary drawings (which did take about a week to complete). Bidding with multiple contractors for the same job is something we commonly do. However, we have never had both companies ask for a preliminary design.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Absolutely, no question there.
Now, consider a little twist on the subject.
Imagine you contract with a client to solve a problem. You arrive at the site, take some measurements, interview staff, whatever. You determine that this problem is exactly like a problem that you solved before.
You go back into your files, read your past report to refresh your memory, then write a new report for the current client. "Here is how to solve your problem".
You have effectively leveraged your past experience and knowledge gained in working for past clients to aid a new client. This is the essence of consulting engineering, and is the reason why experienced consultants can charge higher rates than inexperienced ones.
Why pretend that design engineering is any different. A client comes to you with a set of needs and asks you to quote a solution. You look at those needs and realize that you already have the right solution.
Now, stop being an engineer and be a business man. How much is that solution worth to the client? The client probably contacted other engineers for additional quotes. How might they price the job? If one of them doesn't already have an on-hand solution then they will quote a price the covers their full anticipated time to develop a solution from first principles and make a profit. That sets the maximum value. How much money are you willing to leave on the table?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
My colleague called Company B and told him that Company A had asked us to perform the same work (which Company B knew we has some relations with on this project). He informed him that the quote that we had done previously for Company A on the preliminary design did not include certain aspects which Company B requested and we performed free of charge. He asked Company B for permission in giving the same drawings and information to Company A. In return he would reduce the bill by 1/3 and submit the same bill reduced bill to Company A in order to recoup some of the lost expenses due to scope creep.
Company B was receptive of the idea and thanked my colleague for notifying them of his intentions. He then gave him permission to send the information to Company A.
Company A will be informed of the situation.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Is it? You're being paid to perform a task.
Performers record their performances sometimes, and then re-sell that performance (or the product of that performance if you will) many times over. If the customer is willing to pay for that end product, who is harmed?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
An excellent solution and completely ethical.
MintJulep,
In my world, if I am invited by a contractor to participate with him in a design-build contract and I accept, I consider myself to be part of a team including the contractor, mechanical, electrical and structural engineers. The goal is to land the project for all of us. In such a case, I would not share preliminary design information with a member of a competing team.
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
SteelPE, that is a classy and smart move. That's how I want to be treated, if I'm the customer. Your colleague also created goodwill towards your company.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
As I understood it originally, both Company A and Company B submitted the same set of specifications (which I assumed both received from the client as part of the bid documents/specification and thus this data is the client's)for the drawings and calculations to be done by STeelPe's company to then taken to a foundation subcontractor to complete the final bid to the client.
That both Company A & B chose SteelPE's company and the same foundation subcontractor is co-incidental.
Both SteelPEs company and the foundation subcontractor should have treated each company as unique and kept confidential any information from one about the other, including that they were quoting the other.
My assumption from my reading of the original post was that neither SteelPE's company discussions with A or B produced any original differences that would have resulted in a different quotation or final product by SteelPE's company.
Then both bought the solution and both went to a foundation contractor.
Here I understood they each found a different approach, but Company B's innovation which would have generated a different (better?) solution was revealed to Company A which caused Company B to comment on this to SteelPE's company.
I thought they were just whinging to SteelPEs company because they were upset by the foundation subcontractor's actions.
But subsequent posts make me think differently:
It appears the SteelPE bid to B should have been different to the bid to A but it wasn't, Company A benefited from company B's initiative.
How and why?
Is this is because there was a mistake in the bid to A or was simply a better bid was generated for B?
If SteelPE's company made a mistake and the bid to A was unsound and SteelPEs recognised the mistake independently then they can remedy the defect and make good the quote to A.
If a mistake and the discussion with B resulted in this mistake being discovered, SteelPe's company should simply rescind the quote to A and recommend they approach another contractor.
This is because if A and B approached different contractors and A's made a mistake, and A didn't ask the questions that discovered it, then A is stuck with it.
Hence the only quote that should be improved because of Bs astuteness is B's quote. SteelPE's company cannot maintain a wrong quote and they cannot rectify it becasue then A benefits from B's input, hence they should rescind it as invalid but without detail.
But if the original bid to A is valid and sound and the difference, that was only generated by discussions with B, results in a better offer? then both bids should be separate and valid and different.
There were some questions (and raised eyebrows) at this point but a subsequent post makes this unnecessary:
It emerges :
This doesn't sound right to me.
If this happened before Company A got hold of the improved offer and as described here, then why are we having this dialogue on ethics?
It would appear this is agreed by consenting adults.
It appears from the following B agreed.
I don't see/completely believe this version.
If I was B I'd be very very pleased to have found an advantage and I'd want it kept quiet - but I shouldn't know I had an advantage because I shouldn't know that I have a different quote or even that A is getting a quote from SteelPe's company.
This all now sounds like some after the event cover up.
The only way A should get the same result would be if they asked the right questions, as B did.
I'd suspect company B was only receptive of the idea (getting some of their money back) if this was all enacted after the horse had bolted.
Otherwise If I were company B I'd be saying "No. You don't volunteer a thing to A! Its their lookout if they didn't ask the right questions."
It sounds to me that offering 1/3 off was an attempt to mollify B who was upset that A had access to the benefits of B's initiative.
If this reading is correct then I'd not expect to see B come back as a client in future.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
They may use the same drawings for their entire career, only making small changes as code requirements change. It may seem slightly contrived, but I think it would be naive to think the first few clients weren't charged for the work. And we know the architect charges for a bundle of these stock detail drawings. Charges are added for changes to them... that seems fair, but the stock drawings should be free, if we follow the rules set forth in this thread.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
If selling a product, once you've sold enough to amortize your costs should you then start selling the product at cost?
I'm not usually on the side of 'big business' but come on, let them make some profit.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I always try to be as short as possible with my posts and sometimes things get lost in the shuffle. Here is the time line for you:
1. We receive a lead from another engineer about Company A needing some work done that is outside of that engineers qualifications.
2. We contact the Company A and discuss what they are looking for.
3. We receive a preliminary set of architectural drawings and Company A tells us about the soils problem. They discuss using a certain proprietary foundation system.
4. We look at the job an come up with a quote to do the preliminary and final design.
5. We look at the drawings and come up with a framing scheme an plan of attack.
6. Company A does not sign our quote and tells us that they are still working with the owner and will let us know if they need our help. We don't hear from Company A for a few weeks.
7. Company B calls us to do a preliminary design on a building.
8. Company B sends us the preliminary architectural drawings.
9. We see that it is the same architectural drawings as company A and give them the same preliminary design quote but a different final design quote due to an increase in scope requested by Company B. We inform company B that we have seen these drawing already but never heard from Company A as to proceed. Company B was aware of Company A.
10. Company B accepts the preliminary design quote.
11. We perform the work proposed. In the process the problem with the soils becomes very costly.
12. We submit our final work and recommendations to Company B.
13. Company B goes to a foundation contractor (the only contractor with a cost effective solution that is proprietary... the same one discussed by Company A) and get a price. This is under no influence by us.
14. Company B puts their quote together and presents it to the owner.
15. Company B calls us and says that the job presentation went well and that the owner said they have the same foundation price as another company (assumed company A). There is a 3rd company that has a vastly lower foundation price. Company B believes the lower price is due to the fact the the 3rd company did not cover the costs to properly support the slab on grade.
16. Company A calls us back about 2 months after we last heard from them and asks us to perform the preliminary design so they can make sure their structural quote is accurate.
17. We have a discussion on whether or not we should.
A. Charge them the full price original.
B. Split the costs between Company A and B.
C. Tell Company A to find someone else.
18. I ask the question on this forum.
There has been no cover up. The increase in scope was related to the information Company B was asking for that we did not promise to give to Company A during the preliminary design phase of our work. Due to the soils problem that reared it's ugly head during the design, we thought it would be prudent to give Company B the information they were asking for and make sure they have all the information when putting the quote together.
There was no advantage in figuring out the problem. In fact it was a disadvantage to Company B to find the problem as their foundation prices increase dramatically.
Since the project is a design-build contract, the fact that Company B would have had a much higher price then the other two would put them in a week position when considering price (unfortunately the owners I deal with do that). We did not give any information from one client to the other. That was done by the foundation contractor.
Hopefully this cleats things up... but it will probably only make it worse.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I'm still not sure where the problem is and I still have a problem reconciling the different statements earlier.
Why should A and B know of each other or know of any common elements?
Why should it matter?
They each apparently came up with different solutions with no cross-over of proprietary information (point 13).
A discusses soils and foundation, B extends scope.
Company A then comes back and wants the work done.
So why is there a discussion about what to charge them?
Each has a different solution differently arrived at.
There ought to be no discounts.
Each ought to be billed the full amount as if they were the only client.
The only commonality is it is the same project with the same original drawings and they both went to the same foundation company.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
The question basically comes down to what is fair to both companies. The basic scope of work was generally the same between the two companies (design a building). Company B just required a little more (design a building and foundations in the future). No additional work was required to provide Company A with the preliminary design. I questioned whether it was ethical to charge both companies for the full amount of work when no additional work was performed. We had three options:
1. Charge each the full amount.
2. Split the costs between the two and tell both companies that we are bidding someone else for the same project.
3. Tell company A that we will not be able to help them even though we said we could previously
In the end we choose option two and moved on. Everyone is happy and we are moving on.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
So once something is done it belongs to everyone for free ever after? This is Communism.
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
I think this is also the teachings of some whacko christian religions as all human thoughts came from gods work so they belong to god, so they are for the benefit of all gods chosen people. One faction of the ID brigade I think, so it is not necessarily associated with Pinkos.
It was also a belief of an Aussie inventor who experimented with heavier than air flight via kites as he had no engines available to him. He was opposed to patents as he thought scientific discovery belonged to mankind. A few patents might have had a significant impact on the Wright Bros and their airframe. I have no idea of his religious or political leanings.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
BA
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
On this point I thoroughly agree.
The OPs position has certainly deviated from the OP.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Because of your involvement with Company B, I would give my regrets and decline to put in a proposal with Company A. I would do this without offering an explanation other than previous involvement with another client.
You are in a difficult position because you cannot divulge the name of any party and you have prior information provided by your 'true' client.
It may be that you can get a release from B, but, that could be problematic.
Dik
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Company A and Company B quote?
Company A came to you on Monday with a set of specifications and requirements, and asked you to prepare a quote and do some engineering work. You did so. You should charge for your work at your normal bill rates.
Company B came to you on Wednesday with a set of specifications and requirements, and asked you to prepare a quote and do some engineering work. The specs and reqs happen to be identical to a project you either just completed, or are currently working on.
As long as Company B is asking for a quote in good faith (is willing to pay for your work), then these should be treated as two unrelated projects, and each should be billed independently, and at full price. If Company B stole the information from Company A and asked you to quote on it, that's not your responsibility (and not your responsibility to investigate either).
There's no conflict of interest here. What if both companies googled your core competency on their own, came to your website on their own, and inquired for work on their own?
The only conflict would be if Company B called up and said "Hey you know that quote/work you did/are doing for Company A? Can you send me a copy, or can you send me the quote? I don't have any specifications or requirements, but you know what I'm talking about."
-TJ Orlowski