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Higher boost and E85 or Methanol
9

Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
I have a mazdaspeed 3 with a built motor and a Garrett 3076 turbo. the engine is 2.4L Direct injection, and holds a fuel rail pressure at 1800 psi kind of like a diesel just not as extreme. I have 9.5:1 compression.

I want to run 400WHP Daily driver but this engine runs on 93 octane pump gas and I am spraying a 7 Gallon per hour nozzle of 50% Methanol and 50% Water into my intercooler piping about 16 inches before my throttle body.

My EGT reads about 1200 F at WOT and i run about 11.6-11.9 AFR. The turbo is flowing about 350 Grams/second of air. at 22PSI at 6k rpm. I am getting some engine knock and am very concerned about tuning the timing higher and not catching damage to the engine. I want to beat on it every day as safely as i can and i have a fully built motor so between the 93 octane gas with spraying methanol it should be enough but I don't feel it is and i do not want to spray more its terribly difficult to introduce the extra mixture of fuel into the intake tract and i cannot program the ECU to read it, it can only compensate.

The MAIN Question: E85 is NOT available around me, 99.9% methanol is available. 106 octane is available but costs way too much for daily driver. Should i just start putting Methonal in my gas tank with the 93 octane because i cant buy E85 ? what other options are there. I want to go up to 26-28 PSI and I want a more solid solution then trying to spray so much alcohol.

And What AFR Would be good for this application

*(please remember I am direct injected and my AFR runs a tad higher then the conventional port/intake manifold injections that have time to atomize pre cylinders and dont require so much fuel pressure, and have more time to spray)

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

If your EGT is post turbine it is pretty much meaningless, especially for short bursts of WOT.
If you're knock limited now and you want more power without more knock, you will have to impose measures to increase knock margin, as you are contemplating.  The path to more power is more boost pressure, as this results in more air available for combustion.  To mitigate knock due to increased boost pressure, you have available the options of:
-higher octane fuel
-lower AFR (to a point, probably around 10:1 or equivalent, if fuel is not gasoline)
-more effective intercooling, if feasible
-retarding spark timing (to a point, EGT may become a limiting factor, but you would have to measure it pre-turbo to know).
-water or water-methanol injection (to a point, where combustion becomes unstable)
These measures will actually work best in combination.  The only ones you can't overdo are higher octane and better intercooling.

I wouldn't add methanol to your tank unless you know your fuel system is methanol-ready, and can tune your application for the change in AFR, and accurately control the ratio of methanol to gasoline accordingly when you add the methanol.

Also, I'd advise you, if you don't know already, to evaluate your fuel system's ability to deliver the extra fuel needed to match the extra air you want to add, especially if you choose to put a less energy dense fuel (e.g. methanl-gasoline mixture) in your tank.


  

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
any guess to a good AFR for my application  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
if my fuel system is ethanol ready would it not be methanol capable just the same ?

and what are all the options for raising octane rating. For my application i should stick to spraying 50% water ? or maybe more water or more methanol  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
god there is no way to edit posts here, but i ahve more information to add

my EGT sensor is about 14" AFTER the Turbine/Turbo in my Downpipe.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Methanol is more corrosive than ethanol but ethanol ready is probably Ok for methanol.

EGT 14" after the turbo doesn't tell you much about what's going on with the temperature limited components, e.g. exhaust valves, exhaust manifold, turbine & turbine housing.

Not possible to guess ideal AFR over the interet.  Too many variables.  I would suggest 10.0 and 12.0 as WOT tuning limits, for an aggressive power goal as you have.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

To add to hemi's list for mitigating knock - reduce CR.

Adding methanol to the fuel has several benefits - higher octane, reduced AFR sensitivity (you can run a lot more excess fuel), better charge cooling. Mixing can be problematic. A little moisture absorption (methanol is highly hygroscopic) and it won't mix with gasolene. Adding up to 5% acetone will help. Methanol flow requirement is more than double what you need for gasolene ie 20% methanol blend requires 20% increase in fuel flow.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
ok your a bit vague with that, add acetone to what the methanol top stop from corroding or to make it mix with gas or just add to gas alone.

isn't acetone corrosive or highly highly volatile and extremely expensive like a gallon is 20$ ?  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Methanol and petrol don't mix. The acetone helps it to mix. Yes acetone is expensive.

Acetone is not corrosive as such like methanol which attacks metals, especially aluminium, however acetone is an aggressive solvent for many polymers including many plastic and rubber bits that resist petrol and even methanol.

Methanol is considerably more aggressive than ethanol and I would not presume an E85 ready system will handle the chemical attack or increased volume of fuel required for methanol. The extra volume of fuel is enough so that even tank vents need to be considerably bigger.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

I would not spray water methanol before the inter cooler for several reasons.

The latent heat of vaporization from the water/alcohol injection remains constant no matter where you inject it, but the inter cooler is more efficient at higher charge temperature so if you inject the water/alcohol after the inter cooler you get a lower ultimate charge temperature which gives maximum suppression to knock.

Water/alcohol that lays in the inter cooler in liquid form can cause corrosion and inhibit air flow.   

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

It is NOT safe to assume that an ethanol ready fuel system is safe with methanol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Methanol is much more corrosive, as already mentioned.  However, the bigger problem is elastomers and plastics.  Methanol will cause typical fluorocarbon o-rings & seals to swell over 100%.  It will also permeate nylons.  

I would expect your inter cooler already has substantial corrosion from your 50/50 water methanol spray.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
I am Spraying the water/Methanol about 12 inches in front of the throttle body well well after the inter cooler. I have not sprayed anything on or in my inter cooler.

When i installed the methanol kit i read all the possible mounting locations and this proved to be the best place, just enough space to mix with the air but not lose its cooling properties before hitting cylinders.

If I spray CO2 or NOS on the inter cooler and cool the air charge quite a bit that wont help my knock but might make it worse right? the colder air will just make more power and not help cool anything ? I know it adds about 20 WHP, but wont help knock ?

There is a Dual purpose for my car to have methanol. From factory the car is Direct injected meaning NO fuel goes through my intake system at all but there are 2 PCV systems that feed fumes and oil and gunk all through my intake manifold and valves and also a EGR that feeds exhaust through here as well, so there is NOTHING coming through to clean all that carbon and oil and crap build up in the entire intake tract. it looks like a sewer in there normally, i need the methanol to clean it.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
"gruntguru (Mechanical)     
15 May 11 23:28
To add to hemi's list for mitigating knock - reduce CR.

Adding methanol to the fuel has several benefits - higher octane, reduced AFR sensitivity (you can run a lot more excess fuel), better charge cooling. Mixing can be problematic. A little moisture absorption (methanol is highly hygroscopic) and it won't mix with gasolene. Adding up to 5% acetone will help. Methanol flow requirement is more than double what you need for gasolene ie 20% methanol blend requires 20% increase in fuel flow. "

What is CR

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Compression Ratio

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Maybe a different turbo is more suited to your goals. Maybe the one you've selected is already optimized, or it could be the stock turbo, I'm not familiar.

Assume the IC is air/air, maybe water/air would have greater cooling capacity, depends what you can fit.


Exhaust cutout or other means to reduce backpressure. Slightly cooler thermostat. The usual stuff.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
the turbos is Garret 3076R T3 Flange inlet to turbine and 3" Vband outlet and is supposed to be efficient in upwards of 28-32 psi according to their website. Now my 2.4L is kinda big compared to alot of 4 Cylinders so I think i should be ok to flow 26-28 psi and I want to work up to it maybe for track running or weekend races.

MORE INFO: to satisfy if your wondering about turbo capabilities, one time i had the manual boost controller i no longer use in my setup backwards and the restrictor pill was backwards in the wastegate setup and the turbo was spiking to 32 psi before letting back down to the 14psi spring pressure i had in the waste gate at the time. thank god i had built the motor with chromolly billet rods and the wiseco pistons Or i woulda lost my motor.

Now to Further my Flow capabilities I can completely read my Temperatures of Air charge at the inlet of the intake system and the Boosted air temps and with the methanol my boosted temps are 60-70F. Without the alcohol the temps run in the 95-100's. I live in Tampa Florida its extremely hot and humid here.

QUESTION: I have been wondering about water/air intercooling and what i want to know is is there a way to daily drive like this. my fabricator uses them in his 1000HP car at the track but he uses ice water i think and only for track running the car is for of course and he only speaks spanish so its hard to talk to him. my questions is how does it work internally and will it be beneficial to use this with regular water daily, will it get too hot after driving a bit and not be beneficial anymore or can i get one and empty it for daily use and then when im gonna race fill it up with cold water ?

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Water/air IC core, pump, front mount (small radiator) and reservoir at highest point (to eliminate air bubbles.)

It's just a closed loop cooling system. Daily driving, should stay within 10* of ambient temp.

Yes, add ice at the track if you want. This is a major benefit of using water/air. Adding "cold water" will not do anything for you. Ask your fabricator how many lbs of ice he melts in one run.

Re: turbo selection, plot it on the compressor map and make sure you're in the right place. Efficiency depends on flow and pressure ratio.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
so how does the water remove the heat, is it sprayed over the fins, does the water get sealed in a jacket around the intercooler and fully flows over fins.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

"Methanol is considerably more aggressive than ethanol and I would not presume an E85 ready system will handle the chemical attack or increased volume of fuel required for methanol. The extra volume of fuel is enough so that even tank vents need to be considerably bigger."
Agreed, Pat.  My aSSumption was that the OP was considering blending moderate amounts of methanol, but not anywhere near M85.
I also aSSume that the OEMs, when they harden a fuel system for E85, overdo things a bit, for the sake of warranty avoidance.  And, US OEMs at least, have had experience with M85 in the 80's & 90's (ah, the good old days, M85 at the pump, in California at least), and I expect, though I don't know, that the lessons learned then are now being applied to E85.

Gruntguru, you are quite right, CR is a very important knob in the quest for increased supercharged horsepower.  Since the OP has already "built" his motor, I left that out of my list of post-build tuning measures.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
I was afraid to lower the CR when i built motor and lose power because this Engine platform is VERY VERY hard to get power from the direct injection systems are new to gasoline engines and are mostly applied in diesel applications, I figured mazda made the engine such High CR to make the power they did from the stock engine which makes 260 hp at crank

I did However put a 5 layer cometic metal gasket instead of the factory 2 layer piece of crap to raise the CR a small tad.

I estimate I am flirting with 400 Wheel Horsepower.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

It is axiomatic that if you are seeking more (knock limited) power through higher boost then reducing CR is one of the better ways to facilitate this quest.  IIRC, the 4 bar turbocharged F1 cars of the mid-80's had CR somewhere around 6:1.
If the gasket you installed was thicker than the factory gasket, then, all else being equal, the CR was reduced as a result.
If the 5 layer gasket is actually thinner than the factory gasket, and you knew this when you installed it, and at the same time you were seeking significantly more power through higher boost, then you were shooting yourself in the foot.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
I worded that wrong my thicker gasket lowered compression not raise it. I knew it would lower compression some and was stronger.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

In my opinion a thicker gasket is by far the worst way to lower compression as it also reduces effective quench.

Reduced dome height on the piston or a deeper small dia dish of increased volume close to the spark plug at TDC is a much more effective route in my opinion. Later closing of the inlet valve may also help, depending on where it already is and unless you increase duration, later closing is also later opening which may be counterproductive.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

You have to be really careful changing the combustion chamber shape in these DI engines as the combined effect of fuel spray/timing and air motion greatly affect the combustion.  You are not dealing with a semi-homogenous mixture like a carb or port injected engine.  All the mixing & evaporating is taking place in just part of the compression stroke.  

And I'll say it again.  NOBODY is designing OE fuel systems with methanol compatibility in mind.  It might take awhile for the problems to manifest themselves, but they will.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
i have let go the idea of using methanol

how about octane booster how many bottles can i add and what brand.

how many bottles would it take to get to 100 octane on 12 gallons.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

"Octane boosters" are a crutch.  If you like hopping around on "one foot", go for it.  I tried just about every brand available and they all pretty much suck.
Glad you gave up on the methanol...I ruined a nice pair of carbs, even with acetone/gasoline flush.

Quote:

In my opinion a thicker gasket is by far the worst way to lower compression as it also reduces effective quench.

Agree 100%, Pat.  In addition, a thicker head gasket can limit the ability of the fire ring to seal the combustion chamber without resorting to "O" ringing the block.  Old school stuff that I have not done in a while, even on high boost and 16:1 CR engines.

I chased similar problems when building an all out 2.3 Turbocoupe in the early 80's.  Managed 290hp at the wheels on pump gas, but more was probably available with today's technology.  At some point you are just going to need to go to the higher octane fuel if you wish to continue power increases.  It's expensive, but considering your goals, I think it's just about the cheapest trick left to you.

Rod




 

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
whats the best way to convert 22psi @ 350 Grams/second into CFM ?

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

350 g/s  of air ~= 630 SCFM of air (22psi is irrelevant in this conversion)

FWIW, I fully concur with my learned colleagues above on quench, chamber shape, and thick headgaskets.  I'll defer to dgallup on the subject of gasoline diluted with methanol, as he seems to be more connected with that aspect of the industry than myself.   

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
you guys have been incredibly helpful i think i thanked most or all of you for your replies.

you wont believe the crap i have endured on the forum specific to my car platform everyone is a bunch of jerks and instead of answering my questions about tuning they flame me for asking the questions and not reading the entire internet. I know how to research things and apply them but sometimes the information is platform specific and cannot be had simply by reading, for not everything applies to your applications. Thus the only and best place to inquire about my car and the software i specifically use to tune can only be answered by this group of people where only a small amount really know how to answer my question and the ones who dont just talk junk.

you would think i would get more support going the route i have taken to build a motor and go for higher power which noone has truly broken 500WHP on this car because its soo hard to do.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Reduce full load timing until high EGT's become a problem, add some back in. Then add boost from there.

Look at other DI engines of similar displacement (Cobalt SS for example)

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
if i am seeing 1400 on my egt gauge which is after the turbo in the downpipe like 6-8in after turbine outlet. how hot is that coming out of manifold runners

what temperature is considered dangerous ?

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

If you're going to use EGT for tuning, measure it at an exhaust port, or as close as you can get.  You'll be amazed at how much heat the turbo removes from the stream.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

"i have let go the idea of using methanol

how about octane booster how many bottles can i add and what brand.

how many bottles would it take to get to 100 octane on 12 gallons."

If you are thinking of spending that much money there is an obvious solution to all your problems. Go talk to a supplier of racing fuel (VP or such) and select a fuel to do the job.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
At the local race shop i saw them advertising some form of ethanol, the same place i buy my methanol for my water/meth kit.

I dont know what form they are selling it in, but any ideas of what form it is in, and what do i need to mix it with if its pure.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Unfortunately I have been in your postion.  The standard injectors will not flow more that about 330-340whp(Dyno dynamics).  They are also wall guide injectors - meaning they spray onto the wall then onto the piston top before heading back to the chamber.  The factory pistons have mouldings on them to direct the fuel towards the chamber.

Now I'm not sure if the wieseco pistons have this moulding but it will be very beneficial.  The other thing to note is that there will be huge amounts of fuel at the outer edges of the chamber meaning squish bands will be highly useful in reducing knock(which you have reduced by using a lower comp headgasket).

The only way from here IMO is to modify the manifold to use 4 extra injecotrs and use both port and DI injectors.  Then you can add methanol or E85 or whatever on the port injecotrs.  I definately wouldnt be using methanol or e85 with those HP pumps.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
i have not maxed the injectors yet i can still get the car to run rich as hell. I am and always will spray the methanol into the intake manifold which is what everyone does on this car and it works very well for the reasons i stated before with all the build up on the intake valves and easy knock conditions.

I could always add 4 separate alcohol injectors in each of the 4 runners in front of valves, and with that I could plug off the existing nozzle because it would be too big. I dont know but if we can spray it safely the way me and many others have i could just spray more and make it capable of flowing enough for what i need

Now for you guys to come correct me and tell me why this wont work I am listening. and I also ask if I do it this way I wont need acetone right ? it will mix when compressed in cylinder or as well might even evaporate from heat well before cylinders ??

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
the Wiseco have the exact same dished shape as the factory pistons but have way better skirts with a special coating on them.

So even tho my new head gasket is more stff and more like metal vs the flimsy factory gasket its bad ?

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

If it's thicker it's bad.

If you want to use that gasket you need to take the extra thickness off the top of the block so the piston to head clearance remains as the factory set it or just maybe a little tighter even is better.

To reduce compression, increase the depth of the dish in the piston. Do not increase the dia of the dish without very careful consideration of where it gets close to the head and what that does to turbulence from the squish as the piston approaches the head.

You can run any fuel you like as a supplementary through a separate system so long as that system is designed for that fuel.

Can you tune the ECU on the OEM system.

Can you replace the OEM ecu with something like a a Motec.

If you must use the stock OEM system and a supplementary system, an MFI system as the secondary might be possible. Something like those made by Enderely or Kinsler or Hilborne. They are simple and reliable and dead easy to tune once you understand how they work, although they have zero self correction for anything and as a supplementary rather than as a stand alone, you would be pioneering new ground.

If the OEM will fuel as though the engine is std and not self correct to a point, you can add extra fuel to match extra airflow the OEM won't recognise via a purely mechanical system, however it will only like WOT or closed throttle operation.

For a DD the transition from OEM only on part throttle to MFI implementation on boost will be real tricky to work out.

If I used supplementary MFI, I would use it with methanol.

 

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

If there's a small general aviation airport near you, go buy five gallons or so of 100LL avgas.(STICKER SHOCK WARNING:

http://www.100ll.com/)

Add it to your street gas at 20%, ie 1 qt to a gallon of 93 octane auto fuel. There's enough lead in it (even at it's "low Lead" status) to raise your "streetable" octane. Avoid the temptation to run the car on straight avgas, even if you can afford it. It's the combination of the octane improvers in the auto gas, combined with the small amount of lead from the avgas that does the trick. Remember also, that the avgas has no road tax on it. Usual disclaimers apply.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

The lead will also quickly kill your catalytic converter if you run one.

Even if yo take it off and only fit it for inspection, lead in the system will wash through for weeks even when running only unleaded.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
my exhaust is fully catless its all 3" from turbo back to end of car with a borla muffler that has no restriction.

So what does leaded mean for gas ? and how high will this raise my octane by mixing it, will it be better then buying 106 octane race fuel from sonoco ?

i always leaded meant it would damage internals of the engine.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Sunoco, VP, Rocket...whatever.  They are all in the 106-110 range and vary mostly by the means they are measured.  At ~$8/gal for VP leaded 110 that I use, it would seem to me much the simplest solution to further power gains.  I equate this controversy to the old guy that lived near me and his new Rolls Royce.  He could afford the car, the insurance, the gas guzzler tax and all but, simply could not bring himself to do other than "self service regular"!!!

Do yourself a favor and just go buy a few hundred dollars of dedicated race fuel before you break one or more multi thousand dollar bits and pieces.  Advice from one who has BTDT all too many times in the search of 'savings'.  The project looks like just that, a project.  No one in his right mind drives a machine as you are building on the street.....Well, almost no one, mea culpa!!!

Rod

 

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
to answer the question about my oem ECU, I am using a software that allows full table editing of the factory ecu all tables, timing, fuel, boost, Load, even the speed limiters, i calibrated a bigger Mass air flow housing with it and a bigger MAP sensor to read the hgher boost i am running.

I change the charts then the device flashes the entire ecu with the new parameters and is also used to turn of all the Check engine lights from my mods. the only thing i cant do is tell it I am spraying additional fuel, i have to depend on AFR self correction to compensate for the extra fuel.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

"So what does leaded mean for gas ?"

Geeze, I AM getting old!

Maybe this should be in "Engineering History"?

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/ethylwar/

Some interesting reading here.

There are some who would say the "Battle of Britain" (that was in WW II )was actually won by the Ethyl Corporation; climb performance by the defending British aircraft being much improved by the exotic 115/145 octane "super Gasoline".   

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
hell i just looked at that 100ll site and that gas at 7 something a gallon is only 50 cents more then im paying for methanol. so if i add like 3 gallons of this to 12 gallons of 93 octane what kind of shape will i be in.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

I'm sorry, but I'm beginning to lose interest in this thread.  Simply put, combining unleaded fuels of varying octane rating (given they are all derived by the same method) is simple math.
However, by adding even a smallish amt of 'lead' (leaded racing fuel)you can arrive at octane numbers greater than simple average. Considerably more in some cases.

Worried about contact with the lead in 'leaded fuels'?  I'm too old to even consider that but perhaps you are not.  I'll admit it is a genuine concern these days, but I'm kinda old and have washed thousands of parts in leaded fuels since the 1940's(besides casting thousands of rounds of lead bullets) and, at least so far, I don't seem to suffer any permanent health problems.

Sorry, I don't get your reluctance to buy the correct octane fuel at eight bucks a gallon when you have invested tens of thousands of dollars in the project.  Go buy a used Prius and use the money you save on fuel to buy race gas.

Rod
 

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
lol you are taking it the wrong way i dont know about the available fuels honestly i dont and i am not giving a darn about my personal health and lead i was conerned about the MOTOR and lead, i dont know what if any effects are on the engine, since i was young i see unleaded fuel on every pump out there i always assumed there was a reason for removing it ?

Once i find the most efficient and cost efficient way to achieve what i want i will do it, and if the answer is running pure 106 sonoco i dont care lol i just need to find my options.

So lol dont blow a lid over my questions, i just also noted the aircraft fuel is cheaper then the sonoco gas and also only a bit mroe then methanol its right in the range im already paying ... but ill just be using more it of it more often oh well ? i can switch tunes for real racing.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Lead in fuel will not hurt your engine, in fact it helps some parts. One problem with introducing unleaded fuel was to prevent engine wear and premature failure.

Lead from the fuel will coat things inside the chamber, piston tops and ports and will wash through for some time afterward, hence my warning about passing emissions.

If it where not for catalytic converters being poisoned by lead I think we would still be using it. I know it's toxic, but so are the substitutes.

Mixing leaded and unleaded fuel is a guessing game as different components that may be used in fuel have different reactions to the addition of lead. You will never know the exact composition of any fuel you buy, or if it changed from last time. The specs for fuel are performance based not formulation based.

as you have no catalytic converter and by the sound of it are unlikely to ever retrofit just buy the 110 octane or do risky experiments at your own peril.

I like Rod and maybe yourself are stark raving mad when it comes to the pursuit of power, even in a DD.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

"exotic 115/145 octane "super Gasoline" was of course an error.

It should read 130/145 octane.

AND IT'S PURPLE! Probably run 100 "hg MAP with this stuff.

Thruthefence regrets the error.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
Pat you said

"Mixing leaded and unleaded fuel is a guessing game as different components that may be used in fuel have different reactions to the addition of lead. You will never know the exact composition of any fuel you buy, or if it changed from last time. The specs for fuel are performance based not formulation based."

are you trying to say the blend will variate too much and its not worth trying and wont be effective ? or if you do try to mix there is a process to test to see if its good or needs more of one thing or the other.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Once a long time ago I was a guest at a test lab for Chevron.  They were doing tests on additives and different formulations of race fuels. (incidentally, all were 'clear', with color added later) One of the tests I was interested was the "mixing of different grades" and testing them on a little one cylinder engine/dyno.

From what I saw, I am convinced that if you are not a chemical engineer employed in the race fuel industry,  just stick to buying the 'off the shelf' race gas.  I did some combination of unleaded premium and leaded regular when I could no longer get proper high octane fuel for my street rods late 70's early 80's.  I followed what I had read in the auto mags and, yes, it really did seem to work.  A little leaded mixed in with a tank of premium made for an octane sufficient to keep the little beastie from pinking and knocking under heavy acceleration.  Keep in mind that was for STREET and in no way would I subject one of my $50,000 race engines to such fuel.  Any engine I build for common usage today must be able to run on 89 octane regular and our race engines are fed 110 VP.  

Here is a little thought that perhaps most folks don't take into consideration when it comes to cost in racing.....For a weekend at Laguna Seca as example...

Tow vehicle fuel---$640
Race fuel two day race---$110 to $160
Tires---$400 to $800
Lubricants (Red Line Racing)---~$110
Wear and tear, especially on the old man---Priceless.
Entry fees, food for crew, etc.---All for just an amateur, vintage race weekend.  Double all this if we take both cars.  Trust me, this IS bucks down racing...The 'big boys' would laugh at such numbers.

Hey, it's up to you.  Make some short video, post to YouTube and, give us the link---especially if you get 500rwhp!!!!!  I may be losing interest in this thread but NEVER in the subject matter. Get on with it and then tell us what YOU have observed.

Rod

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

(OP)
I am buying 2.5" fire hose for my intercooler piping which is 2 1/4 gonna sleeve the pipes for insulation. I tuned the timing better and running 22 psi fine with spraying 50/50 meth/water. I will later tune for 26 or 28 psi and then i will use pure race gas along with the methanol.

I will go dyno next weekend after another week of tuning, I am talking with a professional who makes the tuning device via email and he is drastically improving my tuning for me and has helped more than anyone. he himself happens to own the same car so it helps alot enthus wise.

With similar mods and boost levels people with my car are making around 400 so i should expect at least that much.  

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

well, don't be too disappointed if you don't reach your goal on the first attempt, but it sounds like you're on the right track. thumbsup2

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

What I am saying is that if you take each individual component that might be used in a fuel, measure it's octane rating on the test engine Rod mentions, then add lead to each and remeasure, some will dramatically improve octane, some won't change at all. Fuel formulations are not fixed. They change the make up at will depending on price and availability and even expected weather in the target market.

Mixing fuels is a guessing game. Probably 99 times out of 100 you can guess right, and people publish magazine articles on ONE test.

1 in 100 you guess wrong and blow an engine. Is it worth it.

 

Regards
Pat
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RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Fire hose is intended for carrying water.  It may not behave nicely carrying hot pressurized air, especially with solvents added.

You might have better luck with 'blue stripe' marine exhaust hose.  The variant without the wire spiral will even flex a little.

If that doesn't work out, you can progress to blue silicone marine exhaust hose, but be careful to check the limiting pressure; it comes in several wall thicknesses.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Why not just use metal tube with a flexible section of reinforced silicone rubber charge pipe hose specifically designed for the purpose like everyone else does. Speed shops are full of the stuff.

Regards
Pat
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for site rules
 

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

What Pat said.  A good online source is airflowonline.com
There is another online shop based in Colorado that has good prices.  I forget the name, but if you search on turboford.org it should come up.  My recommendations are based on shipping to the US.  If overseas, you should able to find a good source closer to your location.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Nitro,

I haven't had the time to read many of the posts but one thing I have picked up, and its a bit of an aside, is that you are running a wall guided DI set-up and increasing fuel delivery.

You need to be careful with this as it can put you at risk of significant bore wash, which will cause some very expensive damage. Not only that but badly set up GDI engines (in terms or inj pressure & timing) can fill the sump with fuel in a very short time, degrading the oil and causing damage throughout the engine.

MS

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

"Lead in fuel will not hurt your engine, in fact it helps some parts. One problem with introducing unleaded fuel was to prevent engine wear and premature failure."

In Kettering's biography "Professional amateur" I think he mentions that the introduction of tetraethyl lead (1920s?) was anticipated as increasing engine wear by some mechanism or another.  Interesting how theory is sometimes overcome by fact.

I'm eagerly waiting for medical "science" to discover that hot salty fat is actually good for me but only when taken with mega-doses of cheap domestic beer.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/kettering.html

"Troubles continued to test Kettering and Midgley's commitment to tetraethyl lead in the 1922 to 1923 period. The compound was extremely hard to make and it broke down quickly in the sunlight. Engine tests showed that particles of lead burned holes in the exhaust system and valve seats. Lead oxide also caked onto spark plugs, stopping the engine after a few thousand miles. "

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Apples and oranges.  You simply cannot compare modern leaded racing fuels or, for that matter, the leaded fuels of a few decades ago, with the Ethyl Premium of the 30's vis a vis "lead content".  I remember fouling plugs in my '49 Merc a couple times but nothing like what my dad told me of the early days.

All to PC for me.  I've washed so many parts in leaded fuel and handled so much lead that, if you can believe all the hype, I should have died long years ago.  However---I'm still here and still using leaded racing fuel.

If your using an Okie credit card, the "new gas" tastes better than the old leaded stuff....;o)

Rod

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

A couple of things you can try to mitigate knock before opening the engine up to reduce the CR.  First, 11.6 AFR is extremely rich; that's equivalent to about Lambda 0.79 on gasoline.  Further, I assume that you are calculating AFR based on gasoline only.  Methanol has a very different stoichiometric AFR (6.5:1).  It is best to calibrate using a wide-band O2 sensor and quote lambda rather than AFR because AFR can vary greatly depending on your gasoline/methanol mix (stoichiometric AFR of M30≈12.7; M50≈10.2; M85=7.3)

Furthermore, DISI engines operate with quite different needs wrt knock-limited and MBT AFR.  They operate best with mixtures rather closer to stoichiometric than old PFI/carbureted engines.  Even the Audi R8 turbocharged FSI LeMans racing engines before the Diesel era were running closer to lambda 0.85-0.93 at full-load on gasoline.

Blending some methanol in the fuel tank will raise the octane number of the blend, and also the very high latent heat of vaporization of methanol will help charge cooling.  Direct injection magnifies the charge cooling effect.  Just make sure that the fuel system components are compatible with MeOH.  If this is OK, I would suggest running the tank to near empty and splash blend a small amount to about ~M50 start to start.  Calculate your fuel use carefully and observe knocking tendency and progressively add more *pure gasoline* until you are at the threshold of knocking; determine the percent MeOH at that point and that's about where you should be running.  Lambda should be brought back up to the aforementioned ~0.85 as a starting point, however.  When you run higher MeOH percentages, you will need a higher injector flow rates to maintain a given lambda at the same pulse width duty cycles, so keep this in mind).

One other thing you can do is if your engine has mapped computer-controlled cam phasing, you can try to retard the intake camshaft.  This will have the effect of reducing the effective compression ratio and operating on a pseudo-Miller cycle.  If you have a limited adjustment range, you could try to retard the timing by physically moving the camshaft by one tooth in the retard direction (re-indexing the cam position sensor accordingly) and also adjusting the phasing map so that you don't have such late IVC when you don't want it (e.g. at low load, low RPM).

There's no reason why a DISI, 4-valve pentroof head cannot retain a 9.3 geometric CR with the amount of boost you are running.  It's a simple calibration issue.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

TDIMeister, I agree with all your points, however, any Miller cycle effect will proportionately reduce IMEP, BMEP and hence torque and horsepower.  Now if the engine and turbo are up to it, boost could be raised to compensate, theoretically.  But I think Miller cycle is not often used when the quest is to optimize specific power unless there are severe constraints on thermal efficiency and/or engine-out NOX.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Regarding cam timing effects, a lot of the muscle-car engines back in the day, and sport motorcycle engines nowadays, get away with 13:1-ish nominal compression ratio simply because they are running so much cam that at lower revs, the volumetric efficiency is lower, so there is less effective compression (and less output torque).

At higher revs when the engine starts coming "on the cam", detonation is less of a problem anyways.

Engines in those applications are designed to make power with revs, not stump-pulling torque off idle. In a drag-racing car, you use a torque converter with a really high stall speed ... having torque off idle doesn't matter much. In a roadracing sport-bike, the rider keeps the revs high, in the powerband. In a heavy(ish) car with a manual transmission, absence of low-end torque (relative to top end power) could get rather annoying.

I agree with the other comments that your thick head gasket solution is the wrong thing to be doing; you need whatever squish you can get.

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Retarded IVC need not experience a loss in performance (at least compared in magnitude to having to drop x PSI of boost and y degrees of ignition timing on account of knocking).  If the intake is properly tuned, the charge backflow from late IVC can be minimized or eliminated where an overpressure-wave arrives at the intake valve just before its closure and you still benefit from the delayed start of compression and reduced effective CR, which can be easily seen on a log p-log V plot as the point when the compression stroke follows a pretty much straight line with the slope being the polytropic exponent coefficient.

Forced-induction race engines by virtue of radical cam timing run a de facto Miller cycle (minus the late EVO that makes it a true Miller).

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

At best then, we're talking about mild Miller cycle, as a band-aid solution for a CR that is too high for the power objectives, which is fine.  An optimized CR would yield better power density.  An aggressive Miller cycle, applied as intended, has a very high CR in order to realize a high effective expansion ratio, and has significantly delayed IVC in order to avoid knock.  The power density that is lost due to lower volumetric efficiency is offset by higher boost and higher thermal efficiency.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

BrianPetersen wrote: Regarding cam timing effects, a lot of the muscle-car engines back in the day, and sport motorcycle engines nowadays, get away with 13:1-ish nominal compression ratio simply because they are running so much cam that at lower revs, the volumetric efficiency is lower, so there is less effective compression (and less output torque).

At higher revs when the engine starts coming "on the cam", detonation is less of a problem anyways.


Not forced-induction and only partially germane to the discussion, but Mazda's SKYACTIV-G is basically a Miller-Atkinson cycle with late IVC, allowing the engine with 14:1 compression to survive with pump gasoline.  I suspect heavy full-load enrichment, especially near the max. power point but that's not an operating point in certification drive cycles.

http://www.mazda-news.eu/2011/05/31/skyactiv-g-petrol-engine/

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Nitro, could you post a pic of your mazda (engine)? I am always curious of mazda's running turbos

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

If possible, run E85!

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

I was reading an old book that mithyl alcohol (methanol) can be used in a petrol engine. 1 needs 2 times as much fuel (to air) but get 11 mpg instead of 20 but, as it is made of ½ oxygen, produces less pollution. As it has an octane N° of 130 it could use the same compression ratio as a Diesel engine.  As Diesel engines have no spark plugs then some ignition chemicals could be added to the methanol; they only work with a warm engine. So an engine could be started with Diesel & changed to methanol when more power is needed. Then back to Diesel when not much power is needed. That could be more economical than using a larger engine. Has this ever been tried?

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

I am not nearly as knowledgable as the other engineers on this subject.
But, I just wanted to say (Since I own a mk6 GTI)

Too bad APR is only for VAG cars. For a few grand you can get 450 whp from a 2.0 TSi/FSI engine installed and with proven reliability.
thumbsup2

cheers

peace
Fe

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

AndrewHod, your post is filled with non-sequiturs that render it technically unhelpful, and throw into question your qualification for posting, other than questions, in this forum.

Fex32, I agree with your first sentence.  The remainder of your post is cryptic, superficial and unhelpful, since you have thrown in 4 TLA'a (three letter acronyms) that are not commonly known (correct me if I'm wrong), and I don't see how it relates to the OP.

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

hemi,

I never meant to offend anyone here, particularly the other respected members like yourself. And I expect the same respect in return. I have my own engineering expertise to which I am surely extremely knowledgeable about (I won't go right out and say what I mean here...). I already acknowledged your good knowledge on this subject and still stand by it, as I have respect for it.
My post was not meant for you.
The OP is surely familiar with the acronyms as he is obviously a sport tuner (not an engineer) and knows the long rivalry between MS3s and GTIs.
I happen to be a GTI owner and know many MS3 owners. I thought I might put a bit a advocacy in this thread..... although not helpful technically it is relavent....(if not to at least make the OP chuckle smile)
If you are wondering why I am reading this it is to learn for myself outside of my regime. smile
Feel free to think otherwise.
With all due respect intended,

FeX32

peace
Fe

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Oh and I can't be 100% sure that the OP is not an engineer.
I apologize if you are an engineer Nitr0EngiEx.

To add to the above post, I think my reputation thus far on this forum has proven some of my spare time is full of witty engineering smile. To which I am glad to be a part of this forum where I can help others with engineering problems whilst at the same time read and learn others ideas and situations.
During the day I am a research engineer at a robotics institute.  

peace
Fe

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

No worries Fe, I'm certainly not offended and by this forum I only meant Engine & Fuel Engineering and meant no offense to your electrical qualifications.  Your mature & restrained response to my challenge is commendable.  If you could clarify the acronyms you used above I'm sure many of us would be grateful.  By all means, stick around, learn, ask, & contribute.
 

I forgot what I was going to say

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol

Thanks hemi.
Much appreciated.

APR refers directly to http://www.goapr.com/ , which is a very well respected tuning company for Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche.

VAG usually refers to the group of automotive companies which encompass VW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group
This now includes many manufactures other then just VW.

TSI/FSI, is the type of engine produced for 6th generation (Mk6) GTI's. I believe it refers to Turbocharged Stratified Injection. (See attachement) . I believe VW won several awards with its development as it combines power and fuel economy.

If the OP was driving a GTI instead of a MS3 (Mazdaspeed 3), he could shell out 3-4 grand for a kit by APR for at least 380whp. I realize that the OP might be offended by this, or he might like to "do it yourself". smile

Sorry for the VAG advert here. hehe pipe

Thanks for the invite to stick around this thread. Will do.



 

peace
Fe

RE: Higher boost and E85 or Methanol


Worrying about what the OP may or may not think is apparently a simple waste of time as he posted this question on 15,May and last cked back on 30,May.  Seems like the OP is out of the loop.

Rod

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