FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
(OP)
Being the nerd I am, I couldn't resist buying the new FLUKE 200 MHz, all insulated four channel colour scope.
I like most of it. Battery life is good - a full day's work on an airport and still some battery left at the end of the day. But the plastic BNC connectors are delicate like they have been for decades. And internal memory is a mere 15 recordings 'deep'.
Not to worry, I thought. There's always the USB port. Just save data on USB sticks and use Flukeview 5 to get it back to the computer and into your report. good thinking - but no luck, I could not get the data back.
Yes, I could get the data back to internal memory in the scope. But not able to transfer that data from internal memory to computer. The 'native' data (data that were stored directly in internal memory) could be tranferred with no problems, but not data that had been stored to USB and then taken back to INT.
I prize my luck that I did save the more important measurements in INT and not USB. All I can do now with the USB data is to get them back as BMP. Coarse and not at all what my customer expected - and not me either.
Anyone knows what to do? Is there a magic trick so I can make USB data behave as well as the internally stored data?
I like most of it. Battery life is good - a full day's work on an airport and still some battery left at the end of the day. But the plastic BNC connectors are delicate like they have been for decades. And internal memory is a mere 15 recordings 'deep'.
Not to worry, I thought. There's always the USB port. Just save data on USB sticks and use Flukeview 5 to get it back to the computer and into your report. good thinking - but no luck, I could not get the data back.
Yes, I could get the data back to internal memory in the scope. But not able to transfer that data from internal memory to computer. The 'native' data (data that were stored directly in internal memory) could be tranferred with no problems, but not data that had been stored to USB and then taken back to INT.
I prize my luck that I did save the more important measurements in INT and not USB. All I can do now with the USB data is to get them back as BMP. Coarse and not at all what my customer expected - and not me either.
Anyone knows what to do? Is there a magic trick so I can make USB data behave as well as the internally stored data?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.





RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
http://
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
As I said, I left the more important measurements in the scope's internal memory (INT). And I am happy that I did that.
It is not in RECORDER mode that I have the problem (I probably have, but haven't tested yet) it is in SCOPE mode.
The SAVE menu has two choices: 'Screen + Setup' and 'Replay + Setup'. Nothing else. The funny thing is that the text is identical when saving to INT and saving to USB, although saving to INT seems to preserve all data so I can use zoom, cursor measurements, FFT and other math on it while saving to USB and recalling from there does not even allow zoom - let alone any other function.
I am starting to get quite frustrated. Could as well have bought a Chinese Rigol or similar for a tenth of what the 190-204 costs. Doing a paper machine survey with hundreds of measurements, which is my main use for the scope, will not be an easy task if I have to transfer data to a PC every fiftenth measurement.
The portability, isolated channels, high bandwidth and good battery life was what made me buy the 190-204. Perfect for field work. But the USB problem leaves me with a very poorly functioning 'solution'.
I really hope that there is a way out. But so far, I haven't seen one. And the support line is dead on Sundays.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I really hope so. I'm afraid I'll have to ship the instrument back to them if I cannot get a decent solution to this.
I did some more checking. There are three modes; SCOPE, METER and RECORDER.
The RECORDER mode *could* be a way out. But when you want to measure current waveforms with 10 MHz components, a 200 microsecond resolution (fastest in RECORDER mode) is pathetic. There is a glitch cather, but that only says if there has been a glitch wider than 8 ns. It doesn't show waveforms.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
The 2.5 GS/s is probably too fast for an SD or other 'card' memory. Anyhow, there is no immediate access to other than the USB connector from outside. And opening the instrument probably voids a lot of guarantees...
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Saving after measurement needn't be very fast. Perhaps there is an SD or similar. Hope to get a positive answer tomorrow.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I'm not familiar with your 'scope. I mention this just so you know it's been seen before.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
The FLUKE 190 204 was released 2010 or perhaps 2011. I saw the first ads for it in March this year. So it is a recent development and I thought that they had learned from earlier mistakes and that they would be more generous with memory - it doesn't cost as much as it used to, after all. But, no. They hadn't. They weren't.
My older monochrome FLUKE 199 Scopemeter (also 200 MHz and 2.5 GS/s but only two channels and inputs not insulated) actually seems to work better. The PC connection (via that 'optocoupler interface) never caused any problems but the new 190 204 sometimes can't connect to the PC and I have to restart the PC to get a connection. They still use that COMXX: shit with baudrates starting from 1200 Bd instead of talking directly to the USB hardware like most of us do these days. We have designed two instruments where communication is absolutely transparent and connection is instantaneous. Why cannot FLUKE do that? Compatibility issues? Thanks a lot. I'd rather use two software versions than being forced to use this crap. It is year 2011 - at least over here.
Now, when I was already in a really bad mood, I decided to find out if that old overload problem had been solved. They must have done something these years, i thought. At least the €4000/USD6500 price tag makes me believe that there is something more than colour and two more channels to it. Wrong again.
The problem with the 199 was that if you wanted to examine, say a VFD IGBT anode-cathode voltage drop, with high resolution - you couldn't do that because the vertical amplifier (or something else) got choked and produced artefacts that made you believe there was a problem in the IGBT. This time, I checked that with a simple function generator outputting less than 10 V peak and increased sensitivity gradually. The result can be seen in the attached jpg. Looks like that old problem was not dealt with either.
I feel very disappointed. Have the bean counters taken over FLUKE Corporation also?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Or use my TiePie USB scopes plus an Eee small computer when I need to do lots of measurements and store the complete results. I have two of those little nice USB scopes (four channels, differential inputs, COLOUR!and stores ALL! data directly to my drive or USB). Very often, the 20 MHz bandwidth they offer is adequate.
My fast PicoScope (the 3206) is way too sensitive and if there are transients on the input signal that exceed the 20 V limit clearly indicated on the instrument, the input gets damaged. Has happened twice. No guarantee - of course - and I therefore do not use PicoScope any more.
For lower bandwidth and real long memory (equals hard disk space) I use our own ARCUS. Ten channels, 12 bit resolution, inputs that can take 1 kV transients without blinking, fast and reliable USB communication. But that's me. I don't expect FLUKE or Pico Technology to come to me to learn how to design instruments. But I feel they could benefit from a visit
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
In other words (my interpretation) "Trendplot" is a simple graph on the screen with no numbers stored. ScopeRecord is the raw data.
Trendplot (screen-saves) are saved under the section labeled "Q: On the 190 series when storing measurements into memory what is the difference between Screen + setup and Record + Setup?"
ScopeRecords (nujmeric data) are saved under the section labeled "Q: How do I record?
Note also that the word "screen copies" is used when describing how the Trendplots are stored under the section "On the 190 series when storing measurements into memory what is the difference between Screen + setup and Record + Setup"
So if you did not follow the instructions for ScopeRecord under "how do I record", then I think you should not expect to have any numeric data saved.
At least that's my interpretation. We have a fluke 190 2-channel, but it has no USB... so I'm just going off what it says in the link.
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
If it were some newbie making such a statement I would be inclined to agree with you... but it's Gunnar we're talking about here.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
1. The resolution I need (tens of nanoseconds) is not available in scope record mode (best resolution is 200 us).
2. I think it is fair to say that I am surprised that Fluke still uses an antique way of doing things when a small 'mom and pop' operation like ours have found better ways of doing it. I had no intent to sell anything. But I have insights that I wanted to share.
3. I do not think that I am satisfied with the 190 204. And there are reasons for that.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Read what that means.
So again it seems like you got exactly what the link said you would get (screen prints). In contrast, you should get raw data by recording into a "ScopeRecord" using instructions under "Q: How do I record?"
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
But apparently it is a litle better than simple samples spaced as 200 usec.
There is also this:
The table shows:
Time resolution of recording: 200 usec
Will show glitches as narrow as: 50 nanoseconds.
I have to admit it is not 100% clear what that means. Apparently it is an attempt to provide better resolution for suddent changes without wasting storage by recording the entire trace at the higher esolution
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
My mistake was that I had a small HF transformer and a high-pass filter to measure noise. I didn't think that the small HF transformer was able to let enough energy through. But it obviously did.
I have used the same transformer with several other scopes and never had a problem. With the PicoScope, I have destroyed two inputs. Didn't understand what had happened the first time. So had to blow another to realize what was causing it.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Apparently their strategy was to process the heck out of the data and offer all varieties of processed data that they believe is more user-friendly and still somehow contains the vital info from the fast sampling. I'm not familiar with all their features (glitch detection etc) and even if these features do get back some of the data lost, I would certainly be annoyed at having to learn them, rather than just getting raw data which requires no extra learning and which can always be processed later.
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
No, I meant to say that there are more direct, faster and reliable ways of connecting to a USB port than the antiquated COMxx: technique.
The simulated com ports are a nuisance and it is much better to talk directly to the USB hardware/software instead.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Would it be possible to "stream" the data straight to the usb without being constrained by the in-box storage limit?
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(2B)+(2B)' ?
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Direct communication with the hardware works everytime and is fast. We have used FTDI components, which makes communication easy. TiePie seems to use a custom solution and that works very well also. The COMxx: method is, in my opinion, a relict from the RS232 era when you had either that or the Centronics interface to chose between.
The main problem, that I have, is still that there is a very limited space for data (15 measurements) and that the USB stick, which I thought would be a good way of saving data, doesn't store anything but bitmaps of the screen.
The other things mentioned in this thread are 'extra nuisances' that do not make me any happier.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I can store more that 1000 waveforms when I use the USB as extra memory.
No problems with the communication. I had to remove the USB drive when I connect to my PC as told by the manual.
I think you have to send in the unit for service.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I am talking to Fluke directly. They have not suggested that the instrument needs service.
Question: Why would a Tek fan use Fluke?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I save the waveform on the USB drive and with the file options menu I can retrieve them and download them into FlukeView (demoversion).
Maybe you are wondering why i have bought a Fluke?
I was using the Tek THS720 but that unit last ony a few years in a rough environment. The Fluke is more rugged and can be used upto 1000V cat III. I used the ScopeMetre for motor speed drives and the output voltage can be very high.
Safety is what counts for me.
I like the View&Connect and Replay features which makes my work as maintenance engineer much easy.
Guenther
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
h
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I had a long good look at that range of scopes three or four years ago. It's a reasonable scope but its capability is now lagging far behind Tek's mains-powered scopes, especially in memory capacity and communication options (no ethernet or USB), which it didn't when it was first introduced. I asked Tek if they had any plans to update it, but none were forthcoming. It's a shame because it is basically a decent scope but has been left behind in recent years. Had I not changed jobs I'd likely have bought a mains-powered Agilent scope with some decent isolation probes, giving better overall capbility and increased protection for the scope: better to blow an isolation amp than the scope. There aren't many places where I want a scope and can't get either a mains supply or generator given a little effort.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Seems Tek is just lusting after all those damn mega-scopes. At least once a month I see ads and product briefs on scopes costing more than $50k. The other day I saw one that listed for $230k!
Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
Günther, I have tried to transfer all those waveforms stored on the USB stick to Flukeview5 (licensed) and the only way it works is to first manually download each waveform to INT memory (as you know, that takes quite some time for each waveform). The maximum number of waveforms that can be stored in INT memory is 15. No more. So, if I have a modest day's work, say a hundred or so, waveforms and want to transfer them to FV5/PC, I have to manually copy each waveform from USB to INT until I have a set of 15 waveforms available in INT. Then I *can* (if I am lucky) transfer those waveforms - one by one - to FV5 and then store them on disk in the PC.
Usually, the USB stick gets autistic when the USB cable is connected. So I have to disconnect the cable to be able to read the USB. Then, the FV5 doesn't notice that the cable has been pulled and if I try to transfer the next set of 15 waveforms, it starts reading setups and God knows what. It 'reads' happily and after six or seven minutes, it sys that it is rerady to transfer waveforms. Only problem is that it has no information on what waveforms are available. And it still doesn't hace a clue that the cable was pulled.
The situation is aggravated by the fact that there is no information stored with the waveform. No date, no time of day. The scopemeter 'recycles' waveform names. I can have several 'scope1', 'scope2' etcetera waveforms after one day's work. It is extremely awkward to try and keep trace of which is which. Date and time would have helped immensely and is something you get on every simple camera today. But not on this scope.
I can not use a scope like that when doing field work. It is OK for trouble-shooting, yes. But if your task is to verify bearing currents, motor voltage transients on a paper machine or a steel mill where you have hundreds and hundreds of readings that you need to store for reports and future reference, it is not possible.
There is a deeper discussion going on in a 'parallel universe' and we are a bit more outspoken there. All problems haven't been mentioned here. This thread started not as a whining thread but as a way to solve a problem that I got when writing a report during the week-end.
All other problems have popped up after that and I intend to keep that discussion in the 'parallel' and more closed 'universe'.
BTW. Your name is German/Dutch. Your excellent command of English points to Dutch - the little mistake with 'much easy' instead of 'very easy' makes me believe firmly that you are actually Dutch. Have seen that before when talking to Dutch guys. It is kind of a giveaway.
Then, the natural question to ask is: Do you have any connection with the Fluke people?
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
The 'problem' with the maximum voltage between channel references (cold side of the probe) and channel reference to ground may be a simple mistake in the derating diagram. If the horizontal scale is in MHz instead of kHz, it makes much more sense. See attachment.
I find it totally unnecessary that such simple errors shall caus a discussion like what we have had here and also that I have had with the guys in Holland. A customer should not be the first to spot it. Especially not when the question has been put directly to top officers at the headquarters.
As several posters have noticed before - the company doesn't give the competent and solid impression it used to any more. I feel sorry for that.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
"This week, I set out to find solutions to problems on board a ferry owned by Norwegian TIDE ferry company.
I packed my 190-204 and some other things and drove the 800+ km way across the beautiful Norwegian landscape - you ought to do that at least once in a liftime - and did my measurements yesterday. Drove back tonight and started my report this morning (yes, not much sleep - and bad weather, too).
I know how to make FV5 work the first time now, and I also have learned not to try anything else with any USB device as long as the 190-204 is connected. So, I started transferring data from 190-204 internal memory to PC. First data was OK. Next was blank. No data. As a matter of fact, the 190-204 refused to give me any data from 8 out of 14 memory places.
I made a condensed report of what happened and it is available here: http://gk
I am ready to throw this monster out the window now.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
I desperately need a replacement for my trusty, but woefully superannuated Tektronix THS720P. I design power electronics and can't really afford high bandwidth differential probes and, of course, a grounded bench scope is verboten for this line of work. The limitations of my 1996-vintage THS720P are becoming more and more glaring every year. I can't bring myself to get a TPS2xxx series scope because it really doesn't look like it is much of an improvement over the THS7xx series, and the fact that they charge $600+ for software to do basic math functions on the waveforms is exceptionally annoying. Hello - the main reason people buy this type of scope is to look at VFD and SMPS waveforms!!!
Anyway, is the French scope I have seen mentioned here the AEMC OX7xxx series? The OX7204-III sure looks promising, but it is 50% more expensive than the similar model from Fluke. Of course, that still might make it a relative bargain if it does what it says while the Fluke does not. I really prefer to avoid the Chinese stuff like Owon or Rigol or whatever unless someone has just been totally blown away by the performance.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
The Rigol DS1102E has a very comprhensive triggering menu. One thing that I have been looking for in other scopes (and did not expect to find in this low-cost scope) is to be able to trig on edges and where I can define an upper level (say 10 V) and a lower level (1 V) and then set the trigger condition so I trig on all transitions faster than a certain value (I needed 100 nanoseconds). That is quite an achievment. I haven't found that on the OX7204 and certainly not on any of the Fluke scopes I have used over the time. FFT does work on the Rigol scope. But it doesn't exactly shine. Useful if you need to introduce learners to basic signal theory. But not much more.
The OX7204 has four isolated channels. And TWELVE BIT resolution at 200 MHz BW. Genuine one-shot 12 bit resolution.
The OX7204 also has four math channels. One math channel for every scope channel. Just as one expects. Fluke only has one math channel. So you cannot do much with the math functions, which, by the way are limited to four banger functions with an interlock (don't ask why) so you cannot square a channel. The OX7204 has all the math functions you will ever need. Transcendent functions, integration - everything you can possibly ask for.
There is so much more in the OX7204. IP address, SD storage, USB works flawlessly, of course. Can't say that about the Fluke.
The PC program is a run-time NI application and works well. The Fluke FV5 does have a rudimentary Windows look-and-feel but lacks many fetures while others are poorly implemented. No file identity, no date or clock saying when the data were taken. But you do get a time-stamp that tells you when you downloaded the data to the PC. Not very useful.
I am comparing the three scopes now, but it will take some time. Stand by!
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.
RE: FLUKE 190_204 Scopemeter. Data on USB seem to be lost
More seriously, thanks for your honest commentary on the shortcomings you perceived with the Fluke scope.