Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
(OP)
Quick bit of background. I volunteer at the local curling club, helping out with the ice and ice equipment. We run an Ammonia-Brine system and four years ago built new supply and return headers for the brine distribution. The original equipment, circa 1960 was all steel, but we replaced it will PVC as it is more resistant to brine running through it.
The setup is pretty simple. The supply and return headers are both an 80' length of 4" SCH80 PVC that has been drilled and tapped every 6" along the length. Each of those holes has 1" hose barb cemented into it. The system worked great the first couple of years, however this year we noticed brine starting to disappear from the make-up tank. After some investigation, we've found that four of these hose barbs have developed leaks that need to be fixed.
The problem is that correcting the problem with hose barbs that have been cemented is not so easy. Cutting/drilling out the old one requires the brine from the whole system to be drained and refilled once the job is complete. That's a major undertaking for a small group of volunteers.
This is where I'm looking for some advice/input from fellow engineers. Since the leaks are all very small and system is fairly low pressure (20-22psi), is there another solution? Like building up some epoxy around the hose barb connection? I'm thinking about a product like "JB-Weld Waterweld" or some similar putty type epoxy. Does anyone have experience with these products, especially in regards to being used in an environment where it would be exposed to cold conditions, ice build up and contact with brine?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
The setup is pretty simple. The supply and return headers are both an 80' length of 4" SCH80 PVC that has been drilled and tapped every 6" along the length. Each of those holes has 1" hose barb cemented into it. The system worked great the first couple of years, however this year we noticed brine starting to disappear from the make-up tank. After some investigation, we've found that four of these hose barbs have developed leaks that need to be fixed.
The problem is that correcting the problem with hose barbs that have been cemented is not so easy. Cutting/drilling out the old one requires the brine from the whole system to be drained and refilled once the job is complete. That's a major undertaking for a small group of volunteers.
This is where I'm looking for some advice/input from fellow engineers. Since the leaks are all very small and system is fairly low pressure (20-22psi), is there another solution? Like building up some epoxy around the hose barb connection? I'm thinking about a product like "JB-Weld Waterweld" or some similar putty type epoxy. Does anyone have experience with these products, especially in regards to being used in an environment where it would be exposed to cold conditions, ice build up and contact with brine?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.





RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Might I recommend using some saddle taps to fix the leaky fittings (and other fitting as they start to leak)? This will give you a tapped connection to install some thread-to-barb fittings. Check the links below:
http://www
http://www
http://www
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
The hesitation lies in tha you still have to do something with the brine. Removing the 1" distribution line from the leaking hose barb would still need to be plugged or the system needs to be drained to install the saddle. That's where the suggestion of putting something over the hose barb in place came from. The fact that "water-weld" didn't hold up to sea-water is very good to know.
As for keeping the area clean and dry, with the pump off and the leak is non-existant. Since it's now the off-season, the pump is off from now until September.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
I guess I would have to see a picture/diagram of the set-up, but even if they don't gravity drain, can't you stop the pump and drain through the existing barb fittings (at least drain enough so that there is minimal spillage when removing and saddle)?
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
The problem with the brine has little to do with the brine in the header. It's the miles of distribution tubes in the ice surface. Each one of the hose barbs on the supply header is connected to a 1" PE tube that runs the length of the ice surface, doubles back and then connects to one of the hose barbs on the return header. I haven't measured any of the lines, but based on the dimensions of the ice surface, from supply header to return each line is approximately 305'. That is a lot of brine stored in the ice surface distribution. Coupled with the fact that the headers sit some 3' below the ice surface, you have to drain off a lot of brine before you can do any work.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Do you have clean-outs on the end(s) of the headers or are the capped and welded?
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
The ends of the headers were finished with welded caps. We installed 1" ball valves at the end of both runs for draining the system. There are 4" isolation valves between the pump/chiller and the ice surface, as well as some smaller valves used to bleed air from the system (I've shown them at the tail of the header, but I think there are actually three sets: head, tail and mid-span).
It seems, at least from my experince, that any option involving a distribution tube being re-moved and re-installed means draining the system. We wanted to avoid this, if possible, since it's a big task for a group of volunteers. Maybe it was just wishful thinking that there would be something out there that would accomodate that thinking.
It does seem that the correct thing to do is bite the bullet, drain ths system and fix the four leaky fittings properly. Thanks a bunch for your input.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
http://www.indumar.com/
Don't know if it's recommended for use with brine.
Godd luck.
donf
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
I'd say you'd be better off fixing all of the fittings properly, leaking or not. Or else plan on fixing some more leaks next year, and the year after that...
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
That being said, as a club we don't have the money (~$35k, I've made some enquiries) to replace every one of those fittings with a saddle and hose barb. It would be nice if we did, but the fact is between the building and equipment there are lots of maintenance tasks and not a lot of money (or man-hours). We've worked hard to get our heads back above water and it would be a tough sell to convince the membership to spend that kind of money on something that is not critical at this point. The bottom line, regardless of the decision, we'll have to live with fixing the leaking fittings and leaving the rest. A bunch of preventitive maintenance isn't an option at this point in time.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Groovlok saddles ((U-Bolt Style 7045, with FPT connection, for new barb)http://www
Sequence of repair.
Open all possible drains to reduce the amount of liquid in all lines. Cut off affected barb hoses and clamp off temporarily. Cut off or remove old barbs. Use a jig to drill out new holes to accomodate branch holes. Strap on your new saddles and reinstall your hose.
As always this is only a suggestion.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
How about cutting in socket weld tee fittings, with reducers? Still spendy, and more labor, probably.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Based on the suppliers I talked to a 4" x 1-1/2" saddle complete with a reducer and new 1" hose barb runs somewhere about $90 per connection. Factor in some thread selant and the liklihood of needing some spare hose clamps and distribution tubing and it's a ~$35k bill.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
All four leak locations are indeed on the supply header. And all four leak almost identically, although one is a bigger leak than the other three. Personally, I think that the fact that water weld didn't hold up to seawater is a red flag for me. Seawater is a weaker saline solution than we are dealing with, so it would seem to be a good comparable to me. At this stage, my preference is to drop in a saddle to replace the leaking fitting. It's a pain, but it should eliminate the problem.
After that, we put together a plan to replace a portion of the good fittings with saddles and repeat that replacement over a couple of years.
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
I came across these the other day when looking for some odd PVC and thought of you and your brine distribution system. Something you might want to bookmark/keep in your back product for the future. Looks like the largest they list is 2" main, but it might be worth checking with the mfg. if you ever do replace the entire system.
Java
RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Leaking PVC Header in Curling Club Brine System
Thanks for the heads-up, meant to include the link.
Thanks,
Joe
LINK: http:/