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The Profession
19

The Profession

The Profession

(OP)
I just want to give my two cents about the state of the profession.

1. I believe for the most part it is an incredible amount of work for how much money it pays. Many organization expect too much free overtime in name of professionalism and too many meek engineers just give it. Stop it. A god damn plumber is smart enough to not work for free. If you are scrambling to get a project out, ok but if it is an every week thing knock it off.

2. Organizations treat engineers like cattle and just an expense.  I don't feel anyone in management really gets the expense of bad engineering.  Engineering is an expense and the cheapest is often seen as the best option.  

3. Engineers do an incredibly bad job conveying their worth to an organization. The reason why analyst and people in other occupations do well is because they make their worth to the organization measurable. Engineers make no effort in quantifying their efforts.  Why is this?

4. Every company has no interest in training an engineer for anything.  Every company would rather gobble up someone who worked at some other organization.  If they do hire someone new, two many organizations believe that and expect a green engineer can somehow bootstrap himself to an expert without the expense of mentoring.  If you worried about your new engineers being a flight risk, apply for a H1-B visa.  Never have to worry about them switching companies for more money.

5. I really get tired after being several years out of school and being close to applying for my PE license, having to explain why I am better than a fresh grad. People switch to adjacent positions all the time and never have to explain why they are better than a fresh grad.  I also get tired of people who believe that being good at software package X, makes you a good engineer and extremely valuable to the company.  When did the software package become engineers?  Does our profession do such a bad job in promoting itself that people believe that engineering is nothing more than being familiar with a software package? Would you let a plumber work on your car because he knows how to turn a wrench?

6. I truly believe any engineer worth his salt could have made more money becoming a plumber or electrician and starting his own company.  Most engineers are smart cookies and motivated. What the hell happened to this profession?  I have half of mind to just drop from the profession and start my own company. A lot of politics, low wages, and low security.  If I want low wages and low security, why not start my own company?  


7. Shortage in the industry? Really, why aren't people more vocal over the fact that there is absolutely no shortage. The only shortage I see is of engineers with 15+ years of experience will to work for X, which was caused by many industries not being interested in training newer engineers due to the fact that is an expense.

8. If there is a shortage, why haven't the effective wages been going up?  The effective wage of engineers has only been going down in the US.  Am I in bizaro world? What kind of shortage is this?

9. Why are electrical utilities screaming that their is a shortage of power engineers and believe that getting more students interested in engineering is going to solve this supposed problem?  Only 30-40 percent of graduating engineers go into engineering. What are we trying to do? Reduce that number to 10%?

10. If there really is a shortage, I'll tell you how to get broke college students serious about engineering. Pay nice starting salaries. Period.  

Maybe , engineering is completely different for you if you have 10+ years of experience.  Much of this though I just don't get or understand.  I like engineering a lot but it has left me a little frustrated lately.  

RE: The Profession

I noticed almost exactly the same thing working for a small company led by an a pair of accountants and a salesman. It had everything you mentioned.
- Nobody higher up knew what bad engineering was so didnt care
- Pay was rubbish
- Stress all day
- Lots of free overtime expected
- Average lenth of employment for engineers was 1.5 years (almost all from graduate) until they tried to get a raise, failed and moved on.

I now work for a large company led by engineers. It's completly the opposite, I get the feeling I have barely any work to do and theres hardly any stress (not particularly true, Im just comparing it to a situation where every job was a 'fire engine')

Will
Sheffield UK
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

RE: The Profession

So just say "no" and push back a little.  But make sure you do it nicely, politely, and professionally.  You may be surprised at how much power you actually have in an organization.  But the cost of being able to de-stress your job and go home at a reasonable hour is that you  will be branded by worthless management hacks as "non team player", "having a bad attitude", and other lame aphorisms.  And possibly getting a few more entries on your resume.  Not bad things, really.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: The Profession

We have to take mandatory ethics training every year.  One of the thing they stress is accurate time charging and they say this is important because underreporting time can give a false impression of the true cost of a job and lead to underbidding new jobs.  Whenever I feel I'm being pressured to work extra time I just tell them how I'm taking one for the future of the company by only working 40 hours a week so they have realistic manpower cost data for future contracts.

RE: The Profession

I can't comment on the rant, I actually think engineers have it pretty good overall. How many other jobs pay you just to think stuff up? Architect maybe? Artist? How cool is it that engineers get paid just figure stuff out and just plain make things work. However, I do like the title of the thread:

"The Profession" sounds like the title to a slick TV drama. How cool would that be? I think that it should follow several teams of crack engineers who work for a consulting firm investigating industrial accidents, designing weapons systems, testing/improving vehicle designs, creating/testing new engines, and developing power generation equipment.

I smell Emmy...

RE: The Profession

Star for MG.  A nice rant, I have similar thoughts.

RE: The Profession

But what a handle....Mel Gibson isn't any too tightly wrapped these days....and the real Mel's rant would land him back in court.... but yes, these are all fundamentally sound complaints, but as Kenat suggests, not unique to engineering. Management are equal opportunity shafters.... they'll shaft anyone just so they can "fulfil their legal obligation to the shareholders" to rip off the workers.   

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The Profession

4
(OP)
No, I don't believe they are as common as Kenat believes.  I know a lot of people who make as much or more than engineers with less stress, liability, hours, and more security.  Maybe, this is comparing apples to oranges but I don't think that it should be like this.  I like engineering and I know some of you guys have some pretty sweet gigs or something you are in the least to be content with but on the whole I think things aren't too hot.

I have been visiting this site several times a week for the past four years and I knew which people would probably counter.. Kenat being one.  I have enjoyed reading about the engineering and work problems that all of you run into.  I just am frustrated with how much I put into it and how much I get out.  Maybe, I am just picking bad companies, bad positions or something but the idea of just dropping out of engineering to start my company starts feeling more and more compelling.  I remember awhile back a guy quit engineering to be an electrician awhile back because he was just tired of it so I am not the only one.  I just had an interview yesterday with a company that does a lot of interesting things and some of things said riled me up a bit.  Take that with some salt if you want.   

RE: The Profession

(OP)
I like problem solving and learning about new things. The interest isn't imaginary.  I have attended a load of conferences, have a bunch of books that I have gone through, picked up a 30 i/o plc to give me some experience with plc controls, and taken 20+ credits in grad courses. I had a mediocre undgrad gpa and it made it really hard for me to get into engineering. After, I got in I basically was doing anything that I thought would help me be effective in what I was doing.  I am not saying I am the bees knees.  I don't have 20 years of experience but whereever I have gone I have never felt I had a hard time pulling from other new hires. In my grad classes, I also don't feel like I am in anyway out of my league. I don't believe that engineering has a monopoly on problem solving or learning about new things.  Engineering will in the least always be a hobby for me even if I am not doing it as a job.  

RE: The Profession

Well, that's a better reason than the 'I was good at Math & Physics and my counselor/teacher pushed me to Engineering/I fancied a challenge' crowd that all too often seem to later regret becoming an Engineer.

It's not that many of the things you list don't annoy me, or that I haven't seen them etc. I'm just not convinced the grass is universally greener in other fields.

There are some lawyers making well into the six figures etc. but how many hours did they put in early in their career, how much extra time & cost to study law after their under grad degree.

Doctors too spend more time at school and often work some real unsociable hours early in their career etc.

Finance & banking have their own issues.

As to trades, I've know people that didn't like it because of the physical tol it can take.  While some people make loads at it, others seem to struggle, at least when the construction market dips.

Maybe for you being an Electrician would be more fulfilling and more rewarding, I'm not convinced similar is true for most other engineers.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: The Profession

During my brief stint at one of the Evil Empires, an engineering line manager quit, to finish building and then crew on, a lobsterboat.  At the time, I didn't understand why.

I do now.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: The Profession

2
MelGibson,

I can remember feeling almost exactly as you have described, I nearly singlehandedly convinced half the engineering department to get other jobs.

I am now at the opposite end of the scale, my opinion is not only valued but is sought out, the director of the company knows me personally, and my manager is actively seeking ways to enhance my role in order to keep me.

What I am trying to say is that there are good jobs out there though they may not be in the exact niche that you are working in.

The job that I am in now was such a sideways step that I would never have picked it in a million years if I wasnt desperate for the work. But I am glad I did.

RE: The Profession

Interesting rant. I have had some of the same thoughts. After doing the job for twenty years I still have some of the same thoughts but have choosen to attack the problem a little differently than originally planned.

Instead of trying to change the world, I have adjusted. I just choose not to get upset about things I can't change.

What I can change is my employement situation and my reactions to situations. Now I'm fortunate to work for a company that pays me well and doesn't create a constant environment of stress.

Review your rant in ten years. Hopefully you will have mellowed with age like a fine wine.

Regards
 

RE: The Profession

2
Amen brother Mel!  Testify!

Like many others here, I too have a GREAT gig, after a series of bad ones.  But I know there's a huge difference between my own situation and that of the average employee engineer- the situation I once found myself in, which sucked big time.  And I see us as authors of our own misfortune.  We work absurd amounts of overtime for free, we don't know the monetary value of our services to the organizations we serve, nor do we demand our fair and proper share of that value- how could we if we don't even KNOW it?  Some of us even encourage and promote an increase of supply into our profession.  These are our fault, not the fault of our employers.  

Our biggest fault is that as a profession, we've withdrawn from personal risk, preferring to become wage slaves instead of businesspeople.  As a result, we've allowed our services to be commodified, and we've been permitted to capture far less of the value we create than we would be able to if we remained more engaged in the business of what we do.  Instead of delivering products and projects, capturing our fair share of the value of the risks we take and the innovations we make, most of us sell paper and services, and get the servants' wages we deserve.  It's for this reason, plus the obvious explosion on the supply side into our profession over the past half century, that we have slipped so dramatically in the relative value of our profession to its members in salaries etc. when compared to other professions.    

Unlike many in the "leadership" of our profession, I don't confuse personal anecdotes with data, nor do I confuse criticism of our labour situation for a criticism of the value of our profession to society.  I've got the labour market data and I understand quite clearly what is going on, and why, and it makes me absolutely furious.

As to employment opportunities, the last survey I saw showed the the average engineering grad here in Ontario was significantly more likely to be unemployed 2 years after graduation than the average of all university graduates.  That little shocker has gone unnoticed as the universities continue to raise enrollments.  Clearly, 2/3 of engineering grads working outside engineering isn't a sufficiently flooded labour market for some folks.  There's a chronic shortage of entry level engineering jobs.  

KENAT's right in that there is much in your rant which is a criticism of the life of salaried employment in general rather than of engineering as a specific career choice.  But again, what bothers me is that people, engineers amongst them, still tout our profession like it was "the next big thing", despite the fact taht 2/3 of the grads are already voting with their feet.  

RE: The Profession

Agreed, and this is a story that is reflected in Australia, UK and the US.

The worst culprits are our peers. Engineers Australia has once again published a list of Australias top 50 'engineers' and almost all of them are managing directors. If the pinnacle of our profession is a position that involves little or no engineering then how can we expect anyone else to respect the profession.

RE: The Profession

3
The garbage I've seen and endured in my own work has brought me to the point of changing directions somehow.  I have a few options to consider.

I've had direct and significant economic results to show management who only told me I was not doing enough.  I resigned from that company several years ago and they have yet to find an adequate replacement.

RE: The Profession

Yes, I know the feeling.
I fought long and hard against bad management and bad managers to bring in a project which has resulted in many many millions of dollars extra business.
The moment it started to take off they made me redundant (I think they realised that my bonus system would, uniquely, not only pay out money but lots of it).
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: The Profession

Management is usually a bunch of no nothings (empty soulless suits) who got there by either browning their nose or undercutting the guy next to them.  
I get paid every week or two, so my obligation to them stops when I see my check does not bounce.  

Who said being an engineer was being stroked by your boss?  

I like what I do because I get satisfaction from solving problems and see things run in a semi flawless manner.

Dont hang your life on how your treated at work, you will be very disappointed in the end.

end of story

RE: The Profession

controlsdude, whereas it is nice being complimented for a great job, it is even better to be rewarded financially.

I didn't think much about the financial aspect in my youth.  There wasn't enough experience to contribute beyond normal assignments.  As I gained experience, that changed.

I saw the politics working out for others financially through promotions, bonuses, etc. and not me.  I realized they were doing this off of my work over many years spent away from home and long hours behind a terminal to improve quality, throughput, decrease downtime, etc.

I am human and wanted more, too.  I wanted to enjoy more of the fruits of my labor rather than watch others enjoy it.

RE: The Profession

(OP)
Just an update. The day after this post, my significant other got me a full body message.  Shooting spree averted. The company that I was hoping to get in with is letting me borrow a $4,000  piece of equipment from them for 3 months to run test patterns on something I purchased dirt cheap off of ebay. This is to continue a project I just finished for one of my classes. I am thinking about turning the results of this into a IEEE paper.

If something doesn't line up, I'll probably spend the summer working on this and volunteering for habitat for humanity. I can live with this.  

RE: The Profession

"I am thinking about turning the results of this into a IEEE paper."
Good for you. If unique enough consider a journal not conference. This is much more of an "eye catcher" in the research industry and academia.
The fact that you are continuing your  work after work/classes are over suggest a greater motive than most have.
You might consider getting a job related to whatever your project is about.

btw, full body message! I need a few of those every once and a while wink

peace
Fe

RE: The Profession

lacajun
People that are nice tell you if you did a nice job, compliment you, etc.  It depends on the manager what verbal comments that you get either good/bad/or none.

It reminds of this job I was at recently where this older engineer kept telling me, if my manager would just say thank you once awhile, he could stand working there.  But I kept telling him that if he did not like it here and its unbearable, its best find a different job.  You cant change the people around you, you can only change what you do, only control what you do.  This engineer finally got it and left this company.  He finally realized that they were mean and unthankful lot.

My point is all things being equal, I would rather work with people that are nice and considerate, then jerks.  People vote with their feet.  Who says you have to work there?

RE: The Profession

controlsdude, I voted with my feet more than once.

I've been complimented on my work so that wasn't as much an issue as not getting the promotions and bonuses for my contributions to the bottom line.  If I had made one significant contribution, I wouldn't have worried about it.  After consistently providing significant contributions, it became an issue.

I've worked with some tough nuts in my career in high pressure situations.  Ever worked with a PTSD Vietnam veteran operator who routinely threatened to go postal on everyone, while rolling over a huge ethyl chloride reactor next to a non-explosion proof control room?  I have.  I've been called all kinds of names by men I am still on very good terms with years later.  I have been "hit on" by married men that I am still on very good terms with today.  I have worked just as hard at relationship building with my peers, maintenance hands, and operators as I did at the technical aspects.  I have many successes in that area, which I am happy about.

I've studied the Bible for years.  I am well aware of human nature and its attendant problems.  I give allowance for those problems.  After all, I have them, too, and have really appreciated people cutting me slack, when needed.  The least I can do is provide it to others.  I've also found that prayer about the problem people in my life, and there have been many personally and professionally, changes me most often.  I don't expect others to change their attitudes towards me.  I am not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

However, there are times you run into characters, as you know, that are extremely recalcitrant and have no desire to cooperate with anyone.  How numerous they are, I can't say.  I ran into enough of them that I have left more than one job.  In some cases managers wouldn't address the situations.  In others cases, managers were the problem.  Undesirable knows no boundaries.  On the other hand, desirable knows no boundaries.

I've had managers expect me to solve their personnel problems because they failed.  If you want me to manage and repair relationships you cannot, pay me a managers salary and provide their bonuses.  It's pretty simple.  I am not a lackey.

I've unwittingly stepped into political messes caused by managers.  They wanted me to fix their problems yet they continued to mishandle the problem people to the point that only pigheadedness remained over minutia.  With this situation, a manager later told me they were very careful during the interview process to keep political problems hidden.  They knew I would see them and decline an offer.  They were correct on both counts.

After years of working with processes and people, I wanted to move up the food chain and learn some new skills.

Somehow spending years away from home working 60-90 hour weeks to provide millions in profits for a company didn't seem worthy of a few $40 bags from the company store, with the company logo.  I liked the people I worked with.  I detested the compensation.

RE: The Profession

The owner of an engineering firm said in an interview that engineers are never recognized for doing a good job or anything else good by anyone.  We went on to discuss how people don't understand the value engineers bring and companies have tried for decades to shed as many engineers as possible.  It's a small but decades old firm.

Little wonder Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged has remained so popular.

RE: The Profession

Sorry lacajun, but we disagree on that one!  Anybody who is an "objectivist" (ack) should prepare to be offended and stop reading:  Ayn Rand's novel "Atlas Shrugged" is a piece of agitprop rather than literature.  The self-made man, whose brilliant inventions are suppressed soley by the evil business conspiracy blah blah blah...It remains popular because it suits some people's ideology.  The way her technical people are written, I sincerely doubt she ever met any.  Then again, they're not really people, they're ideological constructs in her ridiculous little ersatz "philosophy", so I guess it doesn't really matter.

People don't value what we do, but they do notice when we screw up!  Perhaps we should screw up more?!  Screwing up and the hope for its avoidance was what led to the licensure of our profession in the first place.  

RE: The Profession

moltenmetal, thanks for the word of the day, i.e., "ersatz."

When I read stuff like this Zombie Apocalypse, I find it increasingly difficult to not laugh at our government and to not reduce the people in it to a level of ridicule.

What I took away from that novel was that incompetent people politic their way into positions of power and do nothing but make things worse through their incompetence and cronyism.  I've seen it countless times.

People do notice when we screw up, unfortunately.  I prefer to "engineer out" all of the mistakes possible because I make enough of them unwittingly.

RE: The Profession

You may not like the source, may not believe the stats or may think it's missing something etc. but here's an article that paints engineering a little more positively than much of the above.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43139089/ns/business-personal_finance/t/study-tells-students-what-their-major-worth/

Quote:

The Bethlehem, Pa.-based group reports that engineering majors account for seven of the top 10 highest-paying majors for the class of 2011. The other three are computer science, information science and business systems networking/telecommunications.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: The Profession

(OP)
I don't buy this study. The bottom engineering quarter is making less than what other agencies quote as average starting salaries.


I am guessing they took these salaries from a study that companies benefit from using for their H1B visa numbers.  Companies are required to pay prevailing wage.  What they are paying their H1B visa employees and where they got their prevailing wage numbers is public record and can be found on the internet. I looked into a company once and saw that what they paid and what they claimed to be prevailing wage were significantly lower than what starting engineers were getting out of University of Texas-Austin, University of Houston, and Texas A&M.  But what do I know? There is a huge engineering shortage.









 

RE: The Profession

(OP)
Companies exist to make money so I don't know if you can fault them for this.  

RE: The Profession

Mel,

I like the cut of your jib.  I had to give you another star for your H1-B visa comments.  We seem to share a certain amount of cynicism; I wish that I could figure out how to capitalize on my cynical attitude.  I will share the formula if that ever occurs.

RE: The Profession

dvd,

There is certainly a way to capitalize on cynicism; become a radio talk show host.

RE: The Profession

I totally understand.  I was laid off two months ago. Turned out the rules of the profession my father in law told me were correct. Funny thing: a client heard about my "misfortune" and picked me up. I was out of work for only a few weeks. Changed careers, moved up the ladder (from engineer to project manager) and got a raise to boot!  

RE: The Profession

lol....

peace
Fe

RE: The Profession

satchmo,

That is the most accurate engineering chart I have ever seen.

RE: The Profession

Thank you, Satchmo, I've never seen my life philosophy, lowered expectations, to be so clearly depicted in graphic form.

RE: The Profession

Got a copy hanging in my cube.  When anyone wants to know why I'm being mean or surly, I just point to it.

RE: The Profession

lacajun,

With regards to the Zombie Apocalypse emergency planning I have to disagree with you (at least how I read your post).  That was probably the most effective emergency planning campaigns I've see/heard of out of any government group... just look at how much coverage it's received.  The fact that they've used satire to draw people's attention to a topic that many would have ignored was genius and I hope whomever thought of it received their fair credit.

As for the OP, many of those thoughts have crossed my mind too, at least I enjoy what I do (most of the time) and the people I work with.  It helps a lot working in a small group of like minded people who expect fair treatment as the norm.

As for flash's post in my mind that's a bit of a cop out that could be said for many jobs; using a garbage man as an example "How many other jobs pay you just to drive around the neighbourhoods enjoying the scenery? Meter-reader maybe? cabbie? How cool is it that garbage men get paid just to drive around and just play with heavy equipment."  It's great that you enjoy your job but I expect fair compensation along with that enjoyment, anything less is not being fair to myself.  (As an aside I did meter reading to put me through the first couple years of uni... it was a great job that I enjoyed and my intention was not to demean those positions mentioned).

RE: The Profession

a brilliant rant from TS, so true thumbsup2

Engineers seem to have collectively resigned to (mis)threatment.

For sure everybody has a diferent character, if your the "quit&absorbing type' that's perfectly fine, but it sure sets you back in the company big time.

To be honest, i cannot even blame them for treating engineers in such way(selfinflicted for a large part)









 

RE: The Profession

"and push back a little.  But make sure you do it nicely, politely, and professionally."

Such nice guy behaviour is detrimental and indirectly sets the scene..

The spectrum is broad between "nice guy & jerk" one should simply not be at the extremes (all the time)

My opinion







 

RE: The Profession

123GO
conehead

peace
Fe

RE: The Profession

The fierceness at which some defend 'this profession' reminds me of Apple Fanboys love      

No matter how mistreated, they continue to rave, meanwhile hunting the critical one's with the intend of biting their heads off

Highly enjoyable read this!
 

RE: The Profession

I talked with a ME today that believes the commercial side of engineering is much better than the engineering side of engineering.  You are treated better, earn more, and don't have near the hours, headaches, and travel to project sites.

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