Pump Building
Pump Building
(OP)
For projects in Northern Canada, where temperature can reach -40C and there is a lot of snow and rain.
(a) Can pump with electric motor driver be installed outdoors ?
(b) Is a building absolutely required for pumps (other than for comfort of operating and maintenance people) ?
(c) If we order a pump for installing inside a building then building is deleted from project scope, what changes will be requierd in pump to be installed outdoors?
Thank you
(a) Can pump with electric motor driver be installed outdoors ?
(b) Is a building absolutely required for pumps (other than for comfort of operating and maintenance people) ?
(c) If we order a pump for installing inside a building then building is deleted from project scope, what changes will be requierd in pump to be installed outdoors?
Thank you





RE: Pump Building
sorry I cannot help any further I live in +40C temperatures
RE: Pump Building
RE: Pump Building
Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand' ... Book of Ecclesiasticus
RE: Pump Building
at -40C, let's say you're not pumping water, with oil your viscosity will be so high that you'd be better off hiring a fleet of mountain goats to drag buckets up hill. If it's water, make snow cones.
RE: Pump Building
Valuable advice from a professor many years ago: First, design for graceful failure. Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs. Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.
RE: Pump Building
RE: Pump Building
Thank you for your response.
I forgot to mention that if the system is properly insulated and heat traced, can the pump and motor be installed outside ?
Thank you
RE: Pump Building
If not, the technicians who have to do it will be coming after you.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Pump Building
I repeat, FALSE ECONOMY!
How much will you save after additional lost production time when repairs take excessively long due to having to erect a functional shelter so that repairs can be made? How much will each episode of erecting a shelter cost compared to building a proper enclosure in the first place? How much is saved by having to get past all of the encumberances associated with the necessary heat tracing when repairs are required?
From your questions and comments, it seems that you must be dealing with people who haven't a clue about cold weather, snow, blizzards, ice, .... If they insist on such foolishness, the best you can do is to be sure that they are fully informed of the potential problems. Let them deal with the consequences of their cost saving measures.
Valuable advice from a professor many years ago: First, design for graceful failure. Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs. Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.
RE: Pump Building
If a 'building' is not wanted, consider a shipping container. That's typically what they do in Labrador with the mine dewatering pumps.
RE: Pump Building
Think of all the work involved with heat tracing and insulating all of your lines. What happens when a middle section of pipe is damaged and may need replacing. You could have to cut/rewire a huge section of heat tracing to remove that bad section of pipe etc. And overall it's an encumbrance.
Heat tracing, if not properly used can also boil the stagnant water in lines. Consider that.
RE: Pump Building
4C if it is for water. Pump room also need to be heated.
RE: Pump Building
Ductile brittle transition temperature issues do not come up. It is impossible to start a pump with full pressure without warming it up. So, it if is that cold, it won't be at full stress. And if it is at full stress, it won't be that cold. We have had to make exceptions in our specifications to allow for materials with a transition temperature as high as -35 °F.
Our mechanics work outside in these conditions every winter. You dress for the cold and take appropriate breaks. I have performed full overhauls on large gas compressors under these conditions with no building. I once aligned a two case dry screw compressor at -30 °F actual temperature. I insist on doing alignments at ambient temperature. So, we took down the temporary shelter, shut off the steam heaters and did the alignment at ambient conditions.
This is not a false economy for an oil refinery. It is a safety imperative.
Johnny Pellin
RE: Pump Building
Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand' ... Book of Ecclesiasticus
RE: Pump Building
Without a building, the pump will run until it doesn't and then if you can find it, it won't run again till spring. I know of one company in Edmonton who still can't find about 100 tons of steel in their yard (under the snow )
RE: Pump Building
Snow does not build up around running pumps since they are pumping hot oil. Our average pump is probably over 300 °F product temperature. If we were talking about a single pump or a small group of pumps, it would be one thing. But in a refinery, we have thousands of pumps. It would be impractical to put up heated buildings with gas detection, fire suppression and bridge cranes over all of these.
I am not talking about some theoretical possibility. Our plant is built this way. I was outside all night last night in a blowing snow storm overhauling a two case, 4000 HP Clark centrifugal gas compressor. We have windbreaks on two sides of the deck and a roof over our heads. Otherwise, we are outside.
Johnny Pellin
RE: Pump Building
When working at extreme temperatures, in either direction, I wouldn't have much faith in that last gasket getting installed correctly. Its a well proven fact that extreme working conditions have their effects on performance, both human and equipment. Don't you really think that it's simply a case of how far any company is willing to push work time, safety and performance limits in the face of heat, cold, noise, radiation, stress, lack of oxygen or whatever against the cost of providing work conditions within the average worker comfort zones. There is no question that work can be performed in freezing, weightless, no visibility, high radiation environments when it has to be performed there, leaving the questions, "Why would anybody want to do it that way? and "What's the advantage?". Is it costs ... again?
Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand' ... Book of Ecclesiasticus
RE: Pump Building
If the pump is pumping water, an additional concern is to find a way to drain it automatically in case of shutdown, as it doesn't take long to freeze up.
RE: Pump Building
From what the OP is doing, I understood him to be pumping water. To me, that's a very different ball game. While he can run similar materials (possibly-corrosion issues?), his fluid properties just aren't the same. That's why I think most of us are leaning on the safer alternatives.
My lab is a Class 1 Division 2 work space. But it's also a food-pharmaceutical environment. So having a building is a must, even though I am working with alcohols and other solvents. I can't have my tanks trying to cool down to -20-40F in winter, while I'm trying to run a hot process.
I'm located a bit east of you, in Illinois.
We're all giving him advice based on our own experiences.
RE: Pump Building
RE: Pump Building
RE: Pump Building
Buildings are not always required. For the sake of the operators, we try to put rotating equipment into buildings when we can, but...
If we had to put a building around every pump, pretty soon the false economies would work completely the other way once you get all the EAC, H2S, LEL, summer case heat rejection, plot space, access, egress, pile locations, picker truck and crane access provisions sorted out.
Some thought needs to go into winterizing the pump but there are a variety of ways to do that cost-effectively other than a building.
Regards,
SNORGY.