how to tackle this type
how to tackle this type
(OP)
new to this forum, looking for some valuable suggestion. how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type? i am facing problems with working with an individual who gets to make the calls in projects (by virtue of position), and whenever i come up with better method/mode to do things faster/better, i get completely cut off from that project right after! its almost like i tried to push this person out of his comfort zone and made his insecured, and so being cut off is my punishment. this person expects me to do his "dirty" work at all times, and tries to keep me at bay from all design/engineering work. i would appreciate if someone can offer some suggestion.





RE: how to tackle this type
I recognize that not using the shift key is easier and faster for you, but it's not better for me; it makes your whiny drivel much less readable than it could be.
Senior persons are often assigned to clean up messes after junior people make them. ... the assignment is done by someone even more senior, at least by rank, if not age.
Do not take it personally. Do not assume that the assigned senior person enjoys cleaning up after you; I assure you they do not. But they don't take it personally; they just do what needs to be done.
I get the impression you are a junior person, which by definition means that you will be assigned 'scut work'. Do not take that personally, either; you have to do the scut work long enough to allow you to differentiate it from other work, so you can in turn assign it to a junior person, leaving you time to do the core work, after you what that is, and you know how to do it.
On a more constructive note, I suggest that you use your own time to figure out _why_ you were removed from certain projects, and what you are going to do differently in the future. If you are having trouble with the figuring out, you might use the simple tactic of asking the senior person who replaced you. ... politely. Take notes. Do not argue; just listen and write.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: how to tackle this type
Try to become friends with this person. You will have a hard time trying to get someone to heed your advise if they do not trust and respect you as a person. Additionally, remember with experience comes insight, so if you have a good relationship with this person they may be more willing to let you know what their concerns are with your idea.
Don't be overly critical of their ideas, and always remember to show appreciation when they help you with something. Try to think of things from their point of view.
When doing the two things above, don't be fake. Sincerity will breed a good relationship. False complements will end up looking like you are trying to suck up. There is nothing worse than watching someone try to suck-up to you. So make sure whatever you do, you mean it.
It sounds like you have some good ideas. In my experience, most people in leadership positions earned it with lots of hard work and talent. Maybe you can find a good friend in this person if you give it a chance.
RE: how to tackle this type
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RE: how to tackle this type
You can assume that your ideas are good/better than the senior's but assumption is the road to disaster. As Mike says, if ideas are rejected, ask why and learn. Maybe he this is something he is trying to get you to learn? Presenting ideas as faster and better you need to listen to why they might not be so good and if you are not asking he may consider this as a dangerous attitude - whether you are right or not. It is as important to know why something is right as it is to know why something else is wrong. When something works and has worked time and again, you really need a compelling reason to show why it should be changed.
You need to stop fixing things that work and look for the things that don't work.
Your senior may also be getting frustrated by the fact that you keep going down the same path and not seeming to want to adopt a better attitude.
Also, the next idea you have don't say "Hey if we do it my way we'll save time and money and do a better job." (better than you, old man).
You say, "I was thinking about how we might do it this way but are there any problems with doing that?"
There may well be some good in your ideas but not in how you say it and until you find the right approach, they are going to get rejected.
Note that in many tasks what matters is meeting the objectives, not how they are met; they don't have to be the quickest or the cheapest or even better if they meet the objectives and are costed appropriately and as often as not "faster" and "better" are normally mutually exclusive and so viewed with suspicion.
One thing, you need to complete on some of these projects without getting kicked off. Current and future employers may conclude one or both of two things: that you are not a good engineer and/or that you have lousy people skills and are unmanageable. Not good to get tagged with either label. Not good to go to an interview and have to omit your senior from your references.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
I see where you're coming from... often times junior guys don't know what they don't know, and the senior guy is not interested in wasting time with a method that won't work. But that's a big assumption on your part...
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: how to tackle this type
RE: how to tackle this type
A bit of envy comes through in this statement. Be patient. He got that position for a reason. He doesn't "get" to make those calls...he "gets" the responsibility for those calls. There's a difference, that you should learn. Most often senior engineers are promoted to such positions for their engineering competence, not for their people skills. Perhaps he has a limited review budget and to have to repeatedly go through some new idea with you on each project is more than he can afford...he has a boss, too.
We've all had those "senior" people who were "in our way". Sometimes they truly are in our way. Sometimes their experience and seasoning are better than we realize as younger engineers. But perception is often stronger than reality.
I suspect that neither of you are particularly "people" oriented. You approach him in the wrong way and he responds in a wrong way...for you. You have apparently achieved a level of irritation with him that has caused your credibility to suffer. If you truly want to correct that, then have a conversation with him about it. Just keep in mind that to have an adult conversation, you need two adults in the room.
If he doesn't have direct salary control over you, he probably has some input to your reviews at the least.
RE: how to tackle this type
For further reading, take a look at Power, Influence, and Persuasion printed by Harvard Business Essentials. You can also use the ideas to further your career. It did for mine.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: how to tackle this type
You do need to analyze your delivery. The right message with the wrong delivery is wrong. It will get you nowhere fast. You have the same attitude many young engineers have towards the older engineers and that is, "get out of my way old man" and "I am too good to do your dirty work." I find it entertaining but others will not. If you cannot genuinely respect your senior engineers, that will bleed through your words and actions. They will see it.
Senior engineers have seen a lot. They know what works and what doesn't much quicker than younger engineers do sometimes. They also know what's been miserably tried. They may know others will have great difficulty adapting to your newer/faster ideas. I am not bashing your abilities but giving you insight into senior engineers.
Also, industry moves slowly. It moves but usually too slowly for some young engineers. You may be one of those. It moves slowly for a reason. No one wants to be the guinea pig and have a huge financial failure to deal with. Engineers who do that often have halted careers until they change companies. You are judged on your ability to make good decisions across the board.
Sometimes, engineers, regardless of age, cannot change. If they cannot, you'll have to learn to live within their parameters for your job. Senior guys have the responsibility for your decisions, as others have aptly stated, too.
Since it is important enough for you to seek counseling here, it is important enough for you to talk to your senior engineer, too.
If things don't go the way you want, you can seek employment elsewhere, with a company known for moving faster and innovation.
Senior engineers generally have endured what you are. It's their turn at the helm. You'll have yours. I hear patience is a virtue. :)
RE: how to tackle this type
The senior engineer has had to deal with folks like ac1980 also.
He/she knows how to deal with ac, and it appears has been successful in shutting ac down -- "move out of the way, I have work to do"
RE: how to tackle this type
RE: how to tackle this type
I would suggest that you look at how you are presenting the ideas. If you are arguing and raising your voice, then you need to work on that. If your ideas are being rejected with no explination, you should try and have them explain why your idea will not work (note that in the meeting may not be the best time for this). If they are just flat rejecting every idea because it is your idea "and obviously you can't have a good idea, so it must be a bad idea by default." Then it is time to get out of there.
I have seen an engineer argue a bad idea until they are blue in the face. To the point of alienating everyone around them. It won't take long doing that and the senior engineers will decide it is easier to complete the project without your help.
Use of product voids warranty.
RE: how to tackle this type
EXAMPLE 1:
i am given a stormwater management task. senior wants me to calculate CN soil/ground cover data by tracing in CAD. i request to allow me to ponder over for a day, spend an entire weekend in the office (without charging), write my own code in .net to automate the entire calculation (from survey linework to CN values). step 1 done. aside from this, i ask the question about what regs to follow. the answers that i get raises suspicion. since i wanted to do my due diligence to the best extent, i call the state dep, the county etc, and get to the bottom of the regs we have to abide by (very different from the regs i was asked to follow). i put together a very polite yet professional email essentially summarizing my effort, mentioning that i have the ground work done, please recommend what the next steps should be and please make some decisions, and also suggested that we may want to get face to face with the regulators to get some clear answers on the "grey" areas of the regs. about a month later, i realize after over hearing a phone conversation that i have been cut off from this project, and another person is basically re-doing all the calculations (flows, volumes, water quality)from scratch. i decide to let it go (although i felt a little sad).
EXAMPLE 2:
project 2, surveyor gives survey at wrong geographic location. i am asked to move it myself to manipulate it into somewhat right location. i accept the task, but at the same time point out that this is somewhat of a liability issue, and also bring to attention what the expected projected coordinate system should be. i also seek clarification (again, very politely) if the survey scope asks the surveyor to deliver a DTM. this is a project where the precise locations are very important. i am shaky on locations because i moved/rotated the file myself to create the base file. moreover, i am asked to create DTM from the surveyor's contour. again, i accept the task politely, but do mention that creating DTM from contours may not be the best way, compared to creating from points/breaklines. two weeks later, i am in another project that involves hatching landscape areas in CAD.
i have gotten time and time again-
"we (as in this person and the near/dear ones) are going to take care of the design, and you can help us with....."
and to that, i have politely replied-
"i would be more than happy to do this for you, but please note that i believe i will be able to do these tasks more effectively if i have some idea of the design process (i am not blank on the design)"
please do not get me wrong, i would be more than happy to participate in every aspect of a project, and at the same time would want to learn something from each. i may sound like i am a bit anal and detail oriented, but that's just how i have learned about this profession in my engineering school: if i am not completely right, then i am wrong. and all i am doing is:
a. trying to come up with ideas to do my job faster and more efficiently, and
b. making the decision makers aware of all the aspects, and offering possible solutions.
now if anyone can share some insight and please suggest where i am going wrong, i would really appreciate. sorry to make everyone read this much, but wanted to sketch a clearer picture.
RE: how to tackle this type
thanks again to everyone.
RE: how to tackle this type
Seeing as how you don't do that even when previously prompted shows an unprofessional and disrespectful attitude which undermines your credibility in my mind and that leads me to suspect, also very much in your senior engineers mind.
From what little I can drag out of whinging in your posts it sounds like you have a lot to learn about respect and professional presentation.
While you seem very well aware of what you do know, it seems you might be very unaware of what you do not know.
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
Just re-read and understood the "Shift Key" comment from Mike's post.
Sorry, i will try to be more mindful in my future posts. But pat, don't you think it's a little to harsh, what you said?
Anyway, I appreciate your comments, and hopefully I will be able to get something constructive out of it. Thanks much!
RE: how to tackle this type
Both Pat and Mike are equating poor grammer/typing skills with a lack of respect for senior management. Really guys?
Everyone immediately assumed ac was some snot-nosed punk disrespecting his fellow engineers, someone who didn't know how to interact with others, as if all suggested ideas were barked out as commands. Yet when he gave examples such as asking for their opinions on his ideas and reminding them it's their final call, the bashing and assumptions continued unchanged.
Granted, in example 1 I think he should have approached management before clarifying the regs with outsiders to avoid hurt feelings by those being questioned... but come on, are we sinking so low as to retaliate when our feeling are hurt by having our answers questioned?
I see some pretty disgusting replies in this thread, and it's the assumption the junior guy is doing everything wrong that gives the senior guys a bad name. The quick-draw and nasty responses I saw here with little information to go on should make the lot of you just a little bit ashamed for your nasty responses.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: how to tackle this type
Thank you for your response, I really appreciate you taking the time.
As for clarifying regs in EX.1, in my defense, I would like to add that this was initially a "task" that was given to me, to finish, and bring back.
So the first step of my due diligence that i did was to find out the regs that I am up against.
Almost parallel, i was handed another set of regs, which prompted me to reach out to the state and county people to get further clarification, as to which one to follow (knowing what I have to follow upfront will not surprise the reviewers, and will save us design time)
When i did get concrete clarification, all i did was relay the information up the chain, again, in a very respectful and polite way (" please advise", and "you have to make the final call" etc.)
My understanding was that this was a task assigned to me, expecting to be completed, and I would not have been expected to keep bugging the Senior Engineer and keep asking him thousands of questions for every little thing. again, i may have gotten that part incorrect....
Please do not get me wrong, I am trying to learn where I went wrong from this thread responses, and not how to get back at this person, or take revenge etc.
Although my very first post may sound like that, but it probably was my frustration coming out more than anything else. That is why I wanted to follow up with some concrete examples.
I am very junior in my career, and am hoping will get to learn how to take steps moving forward, from experienced engineers on this forum, and so i deeply appreciate everyone who responded. thanks again!
RE: how to tackle this type
We have only heard one side of the story. We all know there are really 3 sides, his, hers and the truth which always lays somewhere between.
I have seen to many times when someone relatively inexperienced criticizes someone with much more experience in that field is in fact unaware of some not so obvious pitfalls or did not see the full brief from the client.
It is good to think laterally, but it is also good to be very careful when questioning the decisions of a superior, especially one who has experience in your field and has a much greater overview of the project and it's restrictions re technical, economic and political details.
The OP presented what looked like a very one sided view, lacking much detail, written in a very difficult style to read and comprehend. I made my judgment based on what was said and what was clearly missing and presuming the worst for the missing on the basis of that is why it was missing.
Adding please and thank you to a disrespectful statement does not make it polite.
In my opinion, a young inexperienced engineer should not say Please I have a better idea than yours thank you.
He should say I am new at this. Can I run some ideas past you for critique so that I might learn what has been tried and how it worked out and why from you.
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
I think that Pat and Mike are showing that poor grammar reflects on a lack of professional presentation.
==> Everyone immediately assumed ac was some snot-nosed punk disrespecting his fellow engineers
Indeed, and the tone is set with the title of the thread.
"how to tackle this type"
What do you think is implied by "this type", and the choice to use the verb "tackle". His first question is then, 'how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type?' I think the initial assumption has merit.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: how to tackle this type
It is better to be born out of fire than to be spoon fed. The lessons I learned from my seniors (now principles), managers, and even getting into a job that is a little over my head and making mistakes and getting constructive criticism is the best way to learn new skills and retain lessons learned. People who are under more stress because of responsibility they carry become more critical of their comments and decisions. On retrospect of my career to this point, I am guilty of becoming more serious with my attitude and comments because now I answer directly to customers and program managers who demand straight forward professional answers.
For ac, you can only worry about what you can control. You can control your ideas, but you cannot control the person who has the power to make your ideas come thru. You will have to develop your persuasion and influence skills if you want to change other people's minds. Brute force will kill your career. This is also the same for your career advancement.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: how to tackle this type
Again, all you constructive criticism and opinions are much appreciated. Hopefully, I will be able to learn and put some of the methods suggested into action.
P.S: See how I learned to use CAPS while writing on a discussion board, to make it easy for other people to read? That seems like a good start! :)
RE: how to tackle this type
1) You have a senior engineer managing you who is inappropriate for that position. A good supervisor/manager/lead etc. would take some time you show you why your ideas do not stand up. Actual specific technical work is rarely covered in school on a multitude of subjects. This doesn't mean holding your hand as no project has the time for that.
2) Your pissing in somebody's cornflakes. From your example 1 and your previous grammar (which does set tone) it almost comes off as you were telling the higher ups that they are completely doing it wrong, this is the right way, and please let me continue the correct way; but it's your call. By calling outside sources after being told what spec to use to are severely undercutting your higher ups; if I were them and you did this and were wrong about it I probably wouldn't waste time with you on my work either.
3) Your example 1 could be taken the other way, that in fact they are using the wrong specs and then are dismissing this fact when you bring it up, moving you off the project to keep you at bay. If this is the case then do you really want to be tied to that company?
I'm not sure where your actual case falls (likely a combination) but one thing most engineers need to improve on is playing the political/social games and learning how to interact with different personalities. Learning how to interact and learn from that one cantankerous expert designer who normally doesn't waste time on anything but his specialty his way can teach you a lot.
RE: how to tackle this type
First impressions, fine, I get that, but it struck me as being wholly unprofessional for what was sent back to him. Part of being a senior guy (or gal) is to properly handle the junior guys. This means explaining why a suggested method will not work, and doing so in a professional manner. If necessary, suggest how to change their request to make others more receptive. From what some posted here, the first bad idea or poorly worded suggestion would have the senior guy permanently shut down the junior guy and ignore them for an eternity.
I've been in ac's position, and instead of being told why an idea wouldn't work, I too was ignored, laughed at (in meetings with senior management, no less), and so on. Eventually things became so toxic in the department they had to bring in a consultant to do a sit down with everyone and work through issues. Seniors had just become used to dismissing juniors out of hand and treating them like second-class citizens. They weren't mentors, they were bullies. Think about that the next time a junior guy makes a suggestion you consider outlandish or impractical... explain, don't criticize.
I think it was wise of ac to ask for advice on how to handle such a senior guy, especially if there are so many of them out there. Fine, he may or may not have some more maturing to do, but asking for advice on how to handle the person/situation puts him head and shoulders above the bullying seniors.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: how to tackle this type
JUST KIDDING, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.
DON'T FORGET: NOT YOUR ENEMY. YOUR MEALTICKET.
EXAMPLE 1:
i am given a stormwater management task. senior wants me to calculate CN soil/ground cover data by tracing in CAD. i request to allow me to ponder over for a day, spend an entire weekend in the office (without charging), write my own code in .net to automate the entire calculation (from survey linework to CN values).
IN A BLACK BOX METHOD COMPLETELY OPAQUE TO YOUR CHECKER. CAN THEY REVIEW .NET CODE? DID YOU VALIDATE THE CODE OR CHECK YOUR RESULTS BY PERFORMING THE CALC AS DIRECTED AS WELL? A MUCH BETTER WAY IS HERE'S THE CALCS YOU ASKED FOR. AFTER I DID IT I WROTE SOME CODE THAT MAKES IT GO A LOT FASTER! IF HE DOESN'T BITE, SAVE IT FOR WHEN IT WILL MAKE YOU LOOK GOOD- 'HOLY CRAP JOE X IS MISSING FROM THE FILE! CAN YOU DO IT BY 2:00?' 'WHY YES, I WROTE SOME CODE FOR THAT'
aside from this, i ask the question about what regs to follow. the answers that i get raises suspicion. since i wanted to do my due diligence to the best extent, i call the state dep, the county etc, and get to the bottom of the regs we have to abide by (very different from the regs i was asked to follow).
WHISTLEBLOWER'S DILEMMA, BAD CONSCIENCE OR NO DINNER. REF. ROGER BOISJOLY, CHALLENGER O-RING. A FRIEND OF MINE WAS BLACKBALLED, WORKS IN A DIFFERENT SEGMENT OF INDUSTRY NOW, I'VE BEEN IN CIRCUMSTANCES THAT GAVE ME THE HEEBEE JEEBEE'S A COUPLE TIMES. I STILL EAT AND SLEEP.
FORMALIZING THIS IN AN EMAIL MADE YOUR BOSS CRAP HIS PANTS- LOOKS LIKE A WHISTLEBLOWING PAPER TRAIL WHETHER OR NOT HE IS IN THE WRONG.
EXAMPLE 2:
project 2, surveyor gives survey at wrong geographic location. i am asked to move it myself to manipulate it into somewhat right location. i accept the task, but at the same time point out that this is somewhat of a liability issue, and also bring to attention what the expected projected coordinate system should be. i also seek clarification (again, very politely) if the survey scope asks the surveyor to deliver a DTM. this is a project where the precise locations are very important. i am shaky on locations because i moved/rotated the file myself to create the base file. moreover, i am asked to create DTM from the surveyor's contour. again, i accept the task politely, but do mention that creating DTM from contours may not be the best way, compared to creating from points/breaklines. two weeks later, i am in another project that involves hatching landscape areas in CAD.
YOU RAISED YOUR HAND AND DISQUALIFIED YOURSELF FROM PERFORMING THE ASSIGNED TASK AND ASSIGNED MEANS. YOU WERE REASSIGNED.
i have gotten time and time again-
"we (as in this person and the near/dear ones) are going to take care of the design, and you can help us with....."
and to that, i have politely replied-
YOU ARE LUCKY. SOME PEOPLE GET IT ONCE WITH A PINK SLIP.
YOUR BOSS IS NOT COMFORTABLE THAT HE CAN ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING, SPECIFY THE MEANS, AND THAT IT WILL BE DONE AS SPECIFIED. MAKE A FRIEND THERE WHO HAS A GOOD AND REALISTIC ATTITUDE AND HAS AT LEAST A FEW YEARS IN THERE. ASK FOR HELP IN LEARNING THE ROPES. DON'T BITCH, IT GETS AROUND, AND STICKS TO THE LEAST SENIOR (YOU).
RE: how to tackle this type
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: how to tackle this type
Upon reflection, I think it was entirely too obtuse, because it took two days and many echoes for the primary message to be received correctly.
I don't read the 'seniors' as bullies, and I don't read ac1980 as an idiot either, but they've got a serious miscommunication problem going on there. It's not a language issue, either; ac1980's grammar and spelling are just fine.
My initial, shorter and very rude, message, might have done more good, after the OP cooled off a bit. I apologize for not sending that, because time may be of the essence.
Quietly relieving one of a project is an obtuse way of sending a message. My interpretation of the message: "Change, or leave".
Given that the message has been sent at least twice, I suggest acting on it immediately.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: how to tackle this type
I'm not picking on you AC, but every time I see a post that describes that the other person is the problem and it is not me, then try to find confirmation on this board, 90% of the time it is yourself. You're just trying to find some kind of justification here.
If you have said "I am having a hard time getting my ideas across to my seniors, what am I doing wrong?", it would have come over better.
One rule is to never slander anybody. Take them as they are, figure out how they want to be treated, and move on. Your career will move faster.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: how to tackle this type
I can't tell you specifically what you may be doing right or wrong but I can say there are some personalities that don't mesh at all. That may be your situation. You've gotten great responses and have a lot to sort through. You are bright and motivated so I am sure you will.
Playing the politics at work is always difficult. Some people are overly, overly sensitive and will seek revenge. Often you will not be able to identify them. Vengeful people can wait years to get revenge. I've seen it and it is ugly.
I don't create paper trails or email trails unless they are absolutely necessary and only you will be able to make that call. If you are a PE and/or your ethical and/or professional responsibilities are jeopardized, create a trail just in case you need it for an investigation. If a superior seldom to never answers questions, I treat that as a red flag and begin making requests in email. It may not help, in the long run, but you can provide evidence of doing your job. Do not send mass emails unless you absolutely have to. First, bring issues up in person with the relevant people(s). If that does not work, begin creating a trail and inform the party that you will be talking to their manager about the situation. Most people never want to be embarrassed or "found out" for any reason so delicacy is needed.
As my career progressed, I began to create more and more trails. I found them necessary because I was often blindsided by other engineers that had many challenges. They exist and if they have no scruples, they can and will harm you. If they perceive you to be a threat, they will harm you. I've not had problems with most engineers but the ones I have made my life miserable. I moved on while they remained. I believe that's the way they wanted it. Every time that's happened, management eventually saw the problem peoples and moved them to positions of unimportance so they could no longer cause problems on projects, production, and others. Sometimes it took years, up to seven years, for management to make those changes.
A manager once told me there were three "problems" with me: 1. Female 2. Smart female 3. Educated......and 4. Getting more education. He said, "Those three, uh, four things make people not like you." You cannot overcome others' character deficiencies. You have to understand they exist and deal with them the best way possible. The same manager told me the maintenance manager, a technology major, had been telling the Plant Manager, a non-engineer female, that I lied and did not know what I was doing. My manager did not defend me. I talked with the Plant Manager but got nowhere. She did not know enough to know who to believe. I had less seniority so they went with the maintenance manager. My manager told me during my exit interview that he "would never hire another good looking, female engineer." According to him, I caused too many disruptions on the factory floor. I never knew. It took management seven years to determine who did not know what they were doing and who lied routinely. Ultimately, there were too many players of bad politics for me to truly know what happened there.
Many engineers are jealous of bright, motivated engineers. Jealousy knows no boundaries. You may need to learn to channel your motivation and intellect in other ways that will benefit you and your engineering career. Don't let bad politics ruin your career. Find a working environment that fits you and excel.
Determine the kind of ignorance you can fight and fight that.
Buy a copy of The Unwritten Laws of Engineering by W.J. King. It may provide Pearls of Wisdom you find useful.
RE: how to tackle this type
But the one that is
I have to add that the opening post created an impression that later posts have made me think you have set out to soft soap and manipulate us.
Good on you for trying but it's too obvious and if we accept that you did actually do a Uria Heep act on the senior, he will have seen that too.
To be good at this, it needs to be invisible and seen as genuine and not as an attempt at manipulation.
All credit to you for staying the course in the face of strong criticism, there have been those that have posted here with the idea they'll get a pat on the back and an endorsement who never ever did come back when their expectations were not realised.
If this demonstrates a genuine attempt to find a solution rather than just to have your way, right or wrong, then persevere and you'll get there in the end.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
No devil, no angel, laid off for a while, landed me a great gig afterward. I was well cast in the roll of Giles Corey in a middle school play, didn't end up badly, happy the situation is behind me.
Suffice it to say, I've been in a get along or move along situation. It didn't look like getting along would be agreeable, at least when it came to previously noted facts.
Ref:
Giles Corey
Miller, Arthur, The Crucible
Salem Witch Trials
Martial Arts / Aikdido : 'Good Ukemi'
RE: how to tackle this type
The OP first post didn't read as an ethical question, but the post relating to 2 examples may need to be looked at with ethics in mind.
In Example 1, there appear to be 2 different design regulations - the ones given by the OP's supervisors and the ones found after contacting the State and county officials. Once the OP informed their supervisors of the different regulations he was removed from the project.
Unless the design regulations provided by the supervisor is more stringent than the State/county regulations; there may be an ethics problem at the workplace. Without knowing why there the OP was given a different design than what he got from the State/county regulators, it makes me wonder as a State regulator if the company is conforming with all applicable standards for the design. Note: it could be that some of the regs didn't apply, but it's part of a supervisor/senior engineer to take the time to explain it to the junior engineer.
Once I found out that the project had been reassigned, I would have contacted the other engineer and at least given him the calculations you had already performed. Additionally, I would have a conversation about why the different design specs/regulations were being used.
In Example 2, there seems to be problems by the surveyor and the method of setting up the coordinates on the CAD file. Without knowing what the surveyor did wrong, the safest thing would be to have the surveyor redo the work. If it was something simple (e.g., the calculations were based off a inccorrect benchmark and you needed to redo all of the calcs based on the correct benchmark), then it shouldn't be a problem; but if you don't know, ask. If the problem cannot be simply explained, another survey should be performed otherwise you don't know if Property X was surveyed vs Property Y.
For creating the contours, don't rely on your memory of the best method of creating them. If possible, have examples that show why one method is better.
For both examples, it would be best for the OP to perform the task both ways (e.g., the way the supervisor wants them and the way he thinks it should be done). In most cases, it's having the computer punch out a few more numbers/code which still gets the work dones, without the OP getting in too much trouble for asking the questions.
I'd also advise the OP to contact the other engineers who've gotten the work that was originally reassigned from him. Apologize to them about giving them extra work and see if they can give you any insights. Trust me, they don't want the additional work if they can get it off to you. Ask them why were doing things Method X vs Method Y.
If you don't get a good reason or one that is clearly unethical (e.g., nobody looks at these calculations, so why follow the regs; or nobody follows the rules); then I'd avise the OP to start looking for another place to work.
RE: how to tackle this type
This trick works with senior engineers, government regulators, cops, wives, mothers in law, angry Wal Mart cashiers, anybody really. It takes some time to master, but once you do, it's one of the most handy social engineering methods you'll ever learn.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: how to tackle this type
I have used that tact on suppliers, bosses and freshman engineers many times.
RE: how to tackle this type
Your boss is obviously a sith lord and he has already picked his accomplice, there is only one thing for a good jedi knight to do....
On the serious side, It sounds to me like your boss is not a very good manager. He may be technically correct for reasons you do not fully understand but a decent manager should not silently kick you off the project without sitting down and explaining the reasons to you.
That said, you will have good and bad managers throughout your career and you need to work with both. Do your best to learn how to work with this one.
Dont be disheartened by the grumpy old men.
RE: how to tackle this type
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: how to tackle this type
I was hired to replace another person about a year ago, and i came to know that she originally left because of somewhat similar reasons. Now the person higher up did not fill me into all this, but it turns out that that lady had some close friends in the building, who i now happen to be in good terms and hang out with for lunch or after work drinks every now and then.
this particular (i will use my originally used expression: "ninja claw") person seems to have his "pets" who he always favors, that's what i gathered from others. i have to admit, i was very astonished to find out about this, especially knowing that it's not just me, others have felt and faced the same. i decided to talk to the person higher up shortly after i became aware of this background information.
now it has been about three working days since i talked to the person higher up (i spoke last week friday), believe it or not, i can sense a huge change in the attitude and behavior of this particular individual. let's just say now when someone says "design", that someone says my name right after :)
Honestly, all those harsh words from quite a few people in this forum did make me feel bad initially, but now it feels very good knowing that i was right about my opinion, my judgment, and my perception. i had narrated my problem in the best possible way originally, looking for valuable suggestions from people who know a lot more about this business than i do. but instead, i was met with criticism about my grasp of English language, and frowned/picked upon for not following the forum "etiquette" on how to write, among other things.
There is one valuable learning that i am going to take with me from all of this, to believe in myself, my gut feeling and my judgment at all times. so, thanks to all of you who actually did take time in understanding my situation, and trying to offer me some good advice.
As for the people with the harsh words and blind criticism, i do not hate you, nor do i have hard feelings. i understand and acknowledge that i may have started off in a somewhat rough note, as it was my almost a year-long frustration and a few drinks of bourbon pouring out on to the computer keyboard that night.
i can picture you from not being too far away from this particular individual in my workplace. that's why my request for good advice to you fell into deaf ears, and you enjoyed more in tearing me apart and picking on other things than taking a minute to honestly understanding my situation, even after i gave you concrete examples. now, i have a piece of advice for you guys, as i wrap this up:
moving forward, please do take a minute to at least honestly listen to that young engineer, or that junior person, because most times, they probably do have a good suggestion or idea. and that is primarily because some of them do spend those extra hours after "close of business" browsing the internet, reading blog articles and trying to learn new things. and they do this because they are young in their career, and do have the urge and the enthusiasm to stand out from the rest. please do not dampen their spirits in the same way you did with me. they respect you already because of your knowledge and position, and believe me, if you listen to them, you will get nothing but greater respect.
If you continue to have this attitude towards your junior employees and subordinates, trust me, one day, very soon, they will get past you and ahead of you, and they will be so far ahead, that when/if they take a second to turn around and look back, you will be like a "dot" to them....
RE: how to tackle this type
You have no idea how I interact with my peers of any age, but I will tell you, I treat them with loyalty and respect until I see it is not due to them, then I treat them as I find them. You I am sure I would not treat well.
Your OP by your own admission was drunken ramblings and that is what I initially judged you on and I did justly judge you in a poor light.
On my good advice you corrected that behavior and greatly improved the quality of your postings here and gained credibility with some, but now you abuse me for that advice that you took on board and used to good advantage.
Your last post reeks of the discrimination against the elderly which is a characteristic that I saw hints of in most of your posts. I also saw some mercurial change of position to add weight to your claims. Both these characteristics caused me to be wary of what you say.
I have picked up more crash and burn victims of your ilk than you can possibly imagine. Enjoy your little win before your lack of respect, loyalty and understanding of the limitations of your own knowledge comes back to bite you hard. I strongly suspect ninja claws will shortly be feeding out an ample amount of rope to you and he will sit back with arms folded waiting for the inevitable result.
I know you won't take this advice, but what you learned at university is only the beginning of your education and your failure to recognize that will be to your own detriment.
The most competent people I know are always looking to learn whatever they can from everyone they deal with and continue with such behavior until the day they die.
For myself I have willingly stood aside and given bright young rising stars a leg up when they deserved it, but never one with your attitude. Many of those I helped not only looked back but still come back for advice at times.
I am often quoted on another forum for a line I once posted. It is:-
"I will always feed in inquisitive mind, prod a lazy noob and blast a disrespectful bum"
I will always stick by that sentient.
The only words that come to mind to describe your attitude above would rightly get me banned from this site.
Ninja claw might have seen your true character and justly decided not to trust or help you. From your comments above it seems he does help and mentor others. You might ask yourself why them and not you. Look back over most of this post if in doubt.
My final bit of advice for you.
I see the two most probable scenarios as:-
1) As you presume, ninja claws was hauled over the coals as a result of your complaint. Maybe he was and is resentfully eating a big portion of humble pie. Do you want your immediate boss hell bent on revenge and after your hide.
2) Maybe the meeting went more like this.
"Enter boss.
Boss to ninja. Ninja how is young Alex Smart going.
Ninja. He shows great enthusiasm and energy, but he is a bit reckless and conceited and obviously lacks respect and loyalty, otherwise we would not be having this meeting.
Boss. Hmmm. I wonder. He claims you are discriminating against him and you resent his superior knowledge and are deliberately holding him back just like you did with miss floozy.
Ninja. Well you know how her last project turned out. We are still picking up the pieces. I really don't trust his judgment anymore than hers yet. He needs some serious mentoring before he is competent, but he resents guidance and is disrespectful and disloyal. I really have trouble getting him to slow down and heed advice. I really find it hard to talk to him and find his attitude distasteful and frankly I don't like working with him.
Boss. OK, but we have him now and you need to integrate him into your team as a trusted and useful member or we may as well fire him now. Lets see if he is anywhere near as good as he seems to think he is. Give him some latitude on something that won't get anyone maimed or killed and we will see if he is worth the time it will take to sort him out.
Ninja. OK. What if I let him loose on project Z. That will sort out what he really knows from what he thinks he knows. If he does well, lets send him on an ethics course and a team building course. He sure as hell could benefit from them.
Boss. OK throw him in the deep end, but keep a discrete close eye on him. If he stuffs up will fire him.
Ninja. OK, sounds like a plan to me.
Boss leaves.
A few minutes later
Enter Alex.
Ninja. Alex, how would you like to take a much more significant role in project Y".
3) As many here use pseudonyms, do you know who else is reading this thread.
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
Three working days......
A week is a long time in politics, as they say.
Three days is no time. It may have escaped your notice but some really obnoxious people, if we assume ninja claw to be of this type, have superior survival skills.
He is still there.
He hasn't been to talk it over with you.
His boss hasn't been back to you.
Your only criteria for judging the success/failure of your action (you need a metric for whatever you do, an expectation that action A will produced a range of results from B to F) is a sense of a huge change of attitude....?
When you spoke with the bosses boss, did he say lots of platitudes and then say "leave it with me, I'll talk to him." Did you have any expectations of more robust action? Did he promise things would be better? Did he say what would happen if the boss didn't respond? Did he suggest you keep him informed? (My door is open... blah blah...)
Yes, he may have had a word.
Chances are the "pets" have been feeding you and the boss and stirring the pot.
Oh well,......good luck.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
I would give 2 stars for that one if I could.
A question properly stated is a problem half solved.
Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/
RE: how to tackle this type
Unfortunately, instead of trying to help the OP with his ETHICAL question, he was attacked in this forum. Many of the people posting here never did address the ethical problem that the OP presented in his 2nd post. In most cases, the posts were saying "You're a young engineer who seems to think you know everything. If your boss tells you to do something, do it without question." I may be wrong, but that is the feeling I got when reading the posts.
In my 20 year of engineering, with my PE; I've had experiences with older engineers that treat younger engineers like dirt. They (the older engineers) would feel that anything they stamped shouldn't be questioned even if it was the responsibility of another engineer to review his work. When the older engineer had calculatons without forumlae, units of measure, or references for varables used; it was difficult to review the work. When questioned respectfully, the older engineer stated, "I don't have time to teach you engineering!"
Just because an engineer is older, doesn't make his work correct or him right. Nor does it mean that just because an engineer is young, he's wrong. I think that all parties need to stop "venting" and take the time to provide respectful answers.
Please think how you would have answered the following post:
"I'm new to this forum and have a problem. My boss is reassigning projects I'm assigned after I start asking questions about a project. I will do the work that is originally asked, but doing independent reasearch I find out that the design may not be up to the appropriate regulations. After e-mailing my boss about the issues, I never hear back from him directly. Later, I overhear a telephone conversation indicating another engineer has been assigned my project. What should I do?"
That was a simplfied version of Example 1 the OP submitted in his 2nd post.
RE: how to tackle this type
If a senior engineer cannot discuss the relevant issues and the reasons for removing a junior engineer from a project or task and "on the sly" assigns tasks to other engineers, I personally find that hard to respect. It is cowardly. The senior engineer has the power and the responsibility to mentor young engineers. For those two reasons, he is a coward for shirking his responsibility. He has all the power and cannot discuss the reasons for his actions with a young engineer? Has "he" matured yet?
I don't care how "old" one gets there is always room for maturation. Some never mature despite advancing years.
I learned at the graduate level that some engineers do believe the best thing you can do for an employee is to tell them the truth, good and bad, about them. If you cannot utilize that kind of honesty, you deserve the performance you get from your subordinates. They have to be given a choice. Often, we are completely ignorant of our own problems as human beings. It often takes others to inform us of just how much something irritates, annoys, or is flat out wrong. If you don't tell them the truth, you do not present them with a choice.
I had a similar situation as this young kid many years ago. I watched all the men get the gravy projects. I had been asking for one for the experience and to learn. As the next one approached, I sat across my boss's desk and informed him, after a brief conversation, he would have trouble, if I did not get the next one. I got the next one. He didn't trust me enough to do it alone and assigned one of the other men to do it with me. I was infuriated because this man had less experience than me but I accepted his terms. Unfortunately, he left the company. I had the project alone. It was the most successful of its kind in the plant.
The generation gap is obvious here. I'd say there is some age discrimination against this young engineer for his initial presentation with "syntax." Good grief people! Be glad we have young people willing to engage with us old farts. Heck, he was seeking your wisdom not your bitterness.
RE: how to tackle this type
We have heard only this one side of what appears to be a lop-sided story. The fact that "senior" is inserted is a sign; "ninja claws" affect people of all ages.
TTFN
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RE: how to tackle this type
That is the most pertinent point. How can you mentor someone like that.It takes two and BOTH have to talk and both have to listen at appropriate times.
The story we have seen here in my opinion is extremely prejudice and one sided, hence my stance. I simply do not believe much of what was posted by the OP.
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
But having said that I'm concious of the points raised by the more tolerant members here that some of us may have been unduly harsh and unsympathetic and failed to make allowances, failed to address the fundamental request for help.
When taking a critical look at the way the "senior" is not mentoring ac1980 nor explaining why suggestions are rejected there is a great deal of truth in this and the potential that this is a case where the senior is seriously at fault.
Now, we have been invited in on this when the problem is at full fever pitch. We have a description of teh situation as it exists now.
It would be nice to know if the senior's behaviour was the same at the very outset or not.
So ac1980, on the very first project when you put forward a suggestion as to how to do it better, did the senior ignore you, take you off the project etc. or did he at that time offer some discussion of why he wanted it done a particular way and why he didn't think your solution so good or sufficient to justify a change?
Is it the case that in the early days he tried and has since given up? or was he always a Ninja clawed senior?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
As we only have limited views as to what the situation is/was posters on this board had to try and read into not only the details of your post (Boss continually dismisses me from projects when I raise questions) but the formatting and presentaton (ninja claws, this type, punctuation, etc.). I would agree that I was surprised at how harsh some critisism was (think mine was successful at providing a balanced view with constructive critisism) but they all still provided you with some relative value; even if only insite on how others process information. It would be unwise to just blatantly dismiss and assume that "oh they're just like my boss".
Either way if I were you I would still be keeping an eye on future job postings becuase working for a shite boss that's temporarly better is still working for a shite boss.
Best of luck and thanks for a quality quote that should be a warning to all people on all forums "it was my almost a year-long frustration and a few drinks of bourbon pouring out on to the computer keyboard that night." Whiskey breaks my shift key too ;)
RE: how to tackle this type
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: how to tackle this type
I still think my suggestion was the best
RE: how to tackle this type
I must agree with MacGyyver and a few others, the tone was a bit harsh by certain members of this forum (and they cannot see the tone of their threads and the impact it may have on younger forum members). I think a lot of senior engineers forget that we were once in these same graduate positions and we can all remember that certain "senior guy" that gave us a hard time. The lessons learned were often very good ones, but it is clear to me that ac1980's senior did not take the time to explain the project to him and ignored his questions - not a very good example to a younger team member! I guess that if the senior had taken the time to explain the project aspects to ac1980, then this thread would probably not existed.
I guess that ac1980 has learnt some good lessons from this forum and hopefully he remembers this when he has a graduate engineer in his project group some day. The comments on this forum can only make you a better person ac1980.
RE: how to tackle this type
Again, we're only reading one side of the story. The brain's prefrontal cortex doesn't fully mature until age 25. While my 17-yo is obviously far from that point, he certainly has a very selective memory. Things that other students obviously heard and remembered from class and announcements are total unknown news to him. Things I tell him, he has no recollection of.
TTFN
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RE: how to tackle this type
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: how to tackle this type
TTFN
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RE: how to tackle this type
Now if she asks a question I answer it once. If/when she comes back with the same question 10 seconds later, I ask if she listened to my answer. If she says 'no', I tell her she should pay better attention, and I do not repeat my answer. She quickly learned 'no' didn't get the repeated response she was after, so she tried 'yes'... which prompted me to ask what part of my answer she didn't understand. She is quickly learning to pay closer attention after she asks a question.
Had I continued to repeat my answer, it would have been my fault for enabling that kind of behavior. But I made sure she understood why I would not repeat my answer.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: how to tackle this type
RE: how to tackle this type
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekagi-shuko
.. or 'shuko' for short.
As I understand it, they were primarily used for silently climbing trees or (wooden) walls, making them a tool.
With a great deal of skill and practice, they could be used to trap someone else's sword, essentially by holding the heels of the hands together with the fingers outstretched and somewhat protected by the steel bands or claws on the inner face of the hands. ... making them a defensive weapon, and perhaps a source of ninja mystique.
With less skill, they could be used in the same way a cat uses its claws to scratch a person. Only in this context does the OP's phrasing make any sense.
... and it's clearly intended as a pejorative.
So let's have no more of this PC crap about the response being harsh.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: how to tackle this type
Well now she will have been taught better than to ignore you.
What you have taught her is exactly what I suspect the OPs parents never taught him. I know it's a guess, but with only one very obviously heavily weighted side of a story, all we can do is guess what might be the real middle ground.
The OP has the right to question AND listen to replys. He has not yet earned the right to ignore or worse still, actively undermine.
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
There is a young engineer here. One day about 5 years ago he walked into my cube, very excited to present one of his "original" ideas.
He though it would be great if the US military formed a scientific research group to try to figure out how to defeat IEDs.
It never got any better after that either.
For a couple years now, he does more talking than work.
Usually about a home hobby project for getting rich; an in-dash system that allows automobile drivers to surf the web while they drive.
I remain on the sidelines in amazement.
RE: how to tackle this type
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
RE: how to tackle this type
RE: how to tackle this type
If you haven't noticed yet, life is unfair, every one has a pet, shi# rolls down hill, and the junior engineer typically gets the shi* end of the stick-a perq for being "senior".
So when life is being so very unfair, and some mean old man is being cruel to you for no reason, stand in front of the mirror and say
"I'm smart enough to do this. I'm good enough to do this."
I was going to quote from Full Metal Jacket, but that probably would not have been sufficiently PC.
RE: how to tackle this type
RE: how to tackle this type
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King
RE: how to tackle this type
Still looking up for that trick!
As a junior, I find that the generation gap is really hard to overcome with some senior engineers. Especially when you know, from experience, that they were sometimes wrong.
RE: how to tackle this type
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
RE: how to tackle this type
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: how to tackle this type
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: how to tackle this type
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: how to tackle this type
I once used her name as a password to lock my step kids out of the internet for that exact reason, or lack thereof. It was cryptic enough to keep them out until they got it about what was required.
Funny, they did not see the joke despite having seen the Blues Bros recently.
I even had them play the song numerous times with a comment it contained the clue to the password.
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
They probably needed Google to find out who was singing the song... and you locked them out
I have Senior in my title, but I like to think of myself as still a young pup (despite what my knees and back often tell me). I guess I need to learn how to respect myself...
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: how to tackle this type
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
TTFN
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RE: how to tackle this type
I guess it's sexist, the plumber's pants look foolish, but I don't mind duck skirts.
RE: how to tackle this type
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
Regards
Pat
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RE: how to tackle this type
TTFN
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RE: how to tackle this type
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: how to tackle this type
IMO, many senior engineers have never advanced with new technologies, products, processes, etc.. They continue to repeat what has always worked for them, without questioning themselves. They see them like that, Juniors. Without seeing what the "Duo" can do if they let some space.
Especially in civil engineering / hydrology I think.
Don't get me wrong, I personally do trust and rely on some of the seniors here, but they're a minority.
Hope to be different as a senior.
RE: how to tackle this type
The problem with hydrology is both seniors and juniors don't get it, because it's such a dark art.
I reviewed a flood study recently by a very large company, and they obviously had a junior engineer, possibly even a nongineer GIS technician, who ran their watersheds. They were a nightmare. It was for a South Louisiana flood study, so I get how it could be difficult, but the technician / junior engineer had drawn up their basis in such a way that creeks actually crossed their basin boundaries. Also, their CN for the watershed north of I-10 was higher than south of I-10, despite the soils/land cover being effectively the same and south of I-10 being more developed. There were a huge number of errors in the watershed delineation across the board, and this was for a study encompassing many square miles, which reclassified many people's property into floodplain or floodway erroneously.
But it's been adopted. And all on bunk watershed analysis by some youngin chugging out GIS maps with either poor oversight or bad oversight, and it's a product of a Top 25 ENR design firm.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: how to tackle this type
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: how to tackle this type
The Firm should take the blame though for letting a non-engineer delineating a watershed.
Worst is that has been approved blindly.
RE: how to tackle this type
This map has been completed using the best information available and is believed to be accurate; however, it's preparation required many assumptions. Please note that there were a huge number of errors in the watershed delineation.
Sounds good.