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Red in Color?
3

Red in Color?

Red in Color?

(OP)
Ran across a specification that said the fire alarm pull stations shall be "red in color".  As opposed red in flavor? Red in height?  I guess if you requested orange pull stations there could be some confusion and you might get an orange flavored one.  Anyone else find this silly?

RE: Red in Color?

I suspect that saying 'Red in color' may harken back to 'olde English'.  Or since, as you said, it was part of a 'specification', it could simply be the need to use syntax which is contractually unambiguous as it appears that there is going to be an exchange of money for the purchase of some product and/or service.  After all, you wouldn't have used the term 'specification' unless you were involved in the purchase of something either for yourself or for a client.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Red in Color?

Nothing wrong in being specific in a 'specification". When people say a green building, it may not necessarily be in color.  Or a brown site may not necessarily  be brown in color.

Wait until you run into contractors who can beat lawyers when twisting the meaning of a specification.

 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Red in Color?

This type of language is common in "narrative, prosaic" specifications where the writer begins writing about a thing and then tries to shoe-horn all the requirements for that thing into a single sentence rather than writing down explicit requirements.  I imagine the longer paragraph is something like:

Quote:

Fire alarm pull stations shall be located in each room at a height of 48 inches above the finished floor.  Pull stations shall be red in color, shall have a cover to prevent inadvertent actuation and shall contain a frangible element to indicate that it has been actuated.....

Best practices for requirements traceability are "one sentence, one requirement."  So:

Fire alarm pull stations shall be located in each room.

Fire alarm pull stations shall be mounted 48 inches above the finished floor.

The color of Fire alarm pull stations shall be red.

....

RE: Red in Color?

2
I think that "red in color" is a really good way to phrase it.  If you said "fire alarms shall be red", I would always wonder if someone left out an "a" as in "fire alarms shall be read".  

It also takes care of the case where a word is usurped after the document was written (how about if someone in the 1950's had written "the alarms shall be a gay shade of red", you wouldn't think "happy" today) or the example above "the building will be green" does that mean it will be the color green or energy effecient?  No way to tell today because "green" has been usurped.

David

RE: Red in Color?

Red in politics, as used to describe some nations of the World.
 

- Steve

RE: Red in Color?

If this is the worst thing you find in a spec you're doing well.

I just had to rush a change request to a vendor because the new version of the relevant IEC standards has changed the wording about minimum ground point size.  Went from "M4 or No.6" to "M4", so I've now had to ask our vendor to put in #8 ground points.  

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Red in Color?

Erik, The Red, knows rain, dear.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Red in Color?

(Rudolph died)

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Red in Color?

When I first read (not red) the op, I thought of "tuna fish."  I always just say, "tuna" because I don't know of any "Tuna Bear" or other kinds of tuna so it bugs me that people say tuna fish.  "Play toys" is another one that really bugs me.  What else are you gonna do with a toy?

However, after reading the replies to the op, I must agree that specs need to be specific even maybe redundant at times.  In particular I like the comment about usurped words.  An lps for you zdas04.

 

RE: Red in Color?

You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.

RE: Red in Color?

That's a good point metman.  Let me write that down with my ink pen.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: Red in Color?

Nothing wrong with "ink pen", it differentiates the thing from a "straight pin" or a "safety pin".  "Pen" would not be ambigous in written language, but it is in spoken language.  "Bring me a pin" sounds considerably like "bring me a pen".

David

RE: Red in Color?

It would be interesting to start a line of pull stations under the brand name 'red'...

RE: Red in Color?

Yes, no specification is complete unless it specifies if the colour is intrinsic to the material or an applied coating and if the later there should be a specification for the surface preparation, a definition of the paint type, application method and number of coats, there will be a specification of the surface finish and there will be a precise specification of the colour. "Red" is too imprecise to define the required colour so a detailed specification would bee required.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Red in Color?

Colors are prone to fading too.  the French Tricolor turns white very quickly.

RE: Red in Color?

I can "Tuna" guitar!

RE: Red in Color?

We raised dogs in years past.  If my wife asked me to bring her a pen, I would bring a portable metal cage, a pen, a portable kennel.  

Hence the need for additional adjectives at times, duplicious as they may seem.   

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Red in Color?

David,

Unless you are in the deep south where pin and pen sound exactly the same.  So bring me a pin could be something to write with or something to stick with.

rmw

RE: Red in Color?

In Mandarin Chinese the word for "pen" and the word for "prostitute" sound the same except for a difference in tone that is imperceptible to Western ears.

Be careful what you ask for...

RE: Red in Color?

dgallup: rofl

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Red in Color?

rerig
so if I asked you to bring me Tuna sandwich, might I expect to find a guitar between two slices of bread instead of fish?

RE: Red in Color?

In Yodaspeak, it could be in the colour red.

RE: Red in Color?

(OP)
I've always thought of "Tuna Fish" as the kind that comes in the can and you smush up with mayo and put on a sandwich.  As opposed to "Tuna" that you get fillets of in a nice restaurant.  But that's just me.

RE: Red in Color?

We'd call the big hunks of tuna: "Tuna steaks".  Great for barbecuing.

On the food names theme, my nephew used to call processed synthetic ham: "Square meat".  Similarly my daughter calls any kind of ham that's in anyway pleasant (i.e. not processed): "The wrong kind of ham".
 

- Steve

RE: Red in Color?

But when they start to talk about which 'color key' it's in, you know that they've gone too far dazed

And if you don't know what a 'color key' is, years ago, just before we were married, my wife was completing 'Business School' which back then was where most girl went to receive professional training to become a secretary and one of her classes involved appearance and wardrobe issues and she had to first identify WHICH 'color key' her appearance (complexion, eye and hair color, etc) matched with so that when she purchased clothes that she could make sure that it would be compatible with her personal 'color key' and not clash.  Being an engineering student at the time I kind of considered that to be so much a waste of time, but over the years she has continued to be aware of this and she did work for nearly 40 years in various jobs where she either had to look good for the bosses or where she interacted with clients (and most of those 40 years was in the health care industry so this included both patients and other hospital staff including administrators and doctors) and she was always considered to be very professional in all aspects of her work.  After a while you discover that there really is something to this since it does help explain why some people just look awful wearing something which on someone else it looks just fine.  I guess there was something to this as they really placed a big emphasis on this while she was taking those classes and I looked at the textbook and additional material provided and it did appear to be back-up with legitimate clinical research and technical references.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Red in Color?

quote,
"...He informed us that he like Tuna, but not Tuna fish."

Maybe he was confusing Tuna fish with Tuna casserole?

They say quarks have color and charm.  color me me charmeningly red.

yeah way off  topic

RE: Red in Color?

Metman, how strange charms and quarks are...neutral
Kenat; see my post 8 Apr 11 12:12 re your post 12 Apr 11 13:39 blush

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Red in Color?

I heard a story once of a number of lighting columns being supplied galvanised and painted RAL9005 instead of being supplied as uncoated steel. This one came about over the phrase "Columns to be supplied black". Why people use the term 'black' to mean uncoated in an industry where painting black is a fairly common practice I will never know.

Will
Sheffield UK
Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws

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