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Tingling sensation while in Substation

Tingling sensation while in Substation

Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
I've been working in the utility industry for the past 11 years.  Up until about 3 and 1/2 years ago I was a field employee and was in or near high voltage substations almost daily.  More recently, I've been in an office enviornment with occasional trips to the field.  Recently (in the past year or so) I've noticed that when I'm in a 345kV yard (or 220kV) I experience tingling sensations in my arms and other parts of the body (most nocticabley arms), while someone standing right next to me feels nothing.  Why the change?  It's a very unsettling feeling, I am not breaking an clearance rules, I am simply talking about walking through the yard and when I get within a certain distance (haven't measured) I can definitely feel it.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
Doesn't seem too likely.  Where would these "iron deposits" come from, and why do I have them now and not 3 years ago?  Why are they only in my extremities?  By the way, I've felt it in my face, ears as well.  It's just the most noticeable in my arms.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Any weather type? Cold, warm, humid, dry?

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
One time it was cold with snow on the ground, but today it was close to 50 and normal humidity.  I would say of the four or five times, it's been cold most of them.  Only one was extremely humid.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I suspect itsmoked is referring to "hemochromatosis". I don't know if iron can accumulate in the body enough to noticeably interact with external magnetic fields, but, well... it's not the craziest thing I've heard.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001368/

 

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

How about your shoes?
when field service, you were possibly wearing heavy sole boots with insole pads for all those hours.

 

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
byrdj
I'm wearing the same shoes I had when I was in the field

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Some people develop a hypersensitivity to electric and magnetic fields.
I know of several "water diviners/dowsers" (looking for underground water for well drilling etc.)that become violently sick /nausea when exposed to these fields.Don't ask me to attempt to explain this, it is simply an observation.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Gunnar (skogsgurra) had a great story a few years ago about divining the source of a "tingle" people were experiencing in a lake somewhere...

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Off the wall hypothesis:
It's not the quantity of iron involved, but the velocity at which it's traveling through your capillaries.

How's your blood pressure?

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I would think that when you're in a substation, the field that is extreme is the electric field (resulting from voltage differences) rather than the magnetic field (resulting from current).

Obviously high dc electric field can give tingling sensation if it induces charges that make the hair on your arms tend to stand up. I haven't heard of that for ac.

I do remember once in a hv substation, you could feel a shock when you touched the door of a compressor panel a certain way (later learned it was when you touched the seam between door and panel).  Did some voltage measurements and found that the open circuit induced voltage between the door and the panel was around 1000 vac.  The door was not effectively grounded and had high induced voltage.  That probably doesn't have much relevance to your situation, but it came to mind because it is an illustration of human perception of the effect of high voltage present in a hv ac switchyard.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)'  ?

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Quote:

Quote:

More recently, I've been in an office enviornment...

Nuff said

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
GTsratup
What's your point?
If you're not going to offer any actual advice, why post?

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

pmdykstra,

I notice that you are new to the site as of yesterday.  First let me tell you welcome.  

Then I would say that after you have been here a while you will see that we often take a poke at one another on a professional level that is.  You will get accustomed to it and once you learn who the respected posters are, you will know that you have been poked by the best.

Your problem is unusual and as an ex-field guy, I understood the "poke" that GTstartup (his handle is spelled that way and that is my "poke") gave you.  Be honored.

What else can you tell us that is different from the days when you were constantly in this environment.  

Could it be that then you experienced the same thing back then but were so accustomed to it that you just didn't notice - like working in the sun constantly but then after "being in an office environment" suffer when suddenly exposed to the sun again?

rmw

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

rmw - are you saying it is normal to be able to feel ac electric field?
(I didn't think it would be.)

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)'  ?

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I guess I should say I have disregarded this comment: <i>"I know of several "water diviners/dowsers" (looking for underground water for well drilling etc.)that become violently sick /nausea when exposed to these fields.Don't ask me to attempt to explain this, it is simply an observation."</i>

As far as I know, people can't feel the presence of water at a distance any more than they can feel voltage difference at a distance.  I'm open to being corrected if I am wrong.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)'  ?

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)

rmw,
I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it.   These were some pretty distinct feelings and I think I would have noticed before.  I also had someone with me who works in my office and is not in the field on an everyday basis and he felt nothing.  The only thing I can think of that is different is that I am now on allopurinal due to having high uric acid levels.   Maybe it's just a change in physiology due to age (I'm 33).  I' just wondering if there are other health problems this may be a symptom of or could lead to.  I also fear that I couldn't return to the field if I ever wanted to.   

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
electricpete
I can definitely feel the field as I get closer (horizontally not vertically obviously) I feel the inrensity increase.   Feels like the hair starts standing up and arms get tingly-kind of like an intense "sleepy limb" and just overall unsettling throughout the body

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

A colleague has sub-contracted a lady who can sense electric and magnetic fields on stray-voltage studies.  She's a bit of a hippy nut-job but the lady is scary accurate when it comes to locating loose neutrals, etc.  Perhaps you should tune your abilities.

you can't fix stupid

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Well you might want to read this from IEEE, it doesn't support your claim but it does reference some additional reading.

http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/embs/comar/Hypersensitivity.htm

I have a neighbor who is making a similar claim (we have a high tension power line overhead behind our house). My own theory is that she is sensitive to the sound, the "buzz" that gets worse on damp foggy mornings, because that's when I hear her complaining the most. I know when I walk through switch yards, that hum makes me nervous, but that's probably because I have seen HV arcs jump out of gear. Your tingling may be a reaction to your own perception of risk; your "spidey sense" warning you of a known dangerous situation. When you were younger, you may not have perceived the risk as strongly because you were exposed on a more constant basis. You were habituated. Now that you have been "...in an office enviornment...", you have lost that habituation.

"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln  
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
jraef
I'm pretty sure it's a physical reaction.  The second time I noticed it I was simply walking parallel to a 345 bus and I felt it in the arm closest to the bus.  It doesn't seem to happen in every yard either.  One day i was at a yard and felt it 30 minutes later at Nother yard it wasn't noticeable.  I'm guessing I've just gotten extra sensitive to the emf

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Medications can cause allll sorts of sensitivities.  It could well be the Allopurinal.

A friend of mine's business has a cell site in the parking lot.  You can't tell it's a cell site because the tower is completely camouflaged inside a fake but extremely realistic fir tree.  He told me about a customer who came in and seemed a bit antsy.  The guy said his skin itched if he was close to cell towers and asked my friend if he knew of any nearby.  It seems some people can sense something.

 

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Hi pmdykstra,

Welcome aboard.

I have been in around substations in Australia for the past few years. I visited some MV subs in Germany a few years ago and in a couple I felt exactly what you describe. I thought it was due to the shoes I was wearing at the time, as I haven't felt that in Australia.

Even though you're wearing the same shoes I'd be interested in whether you experience the sensations when standing on say some sort of thick insulating mat.    

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Here's my 2 cents.... Back in the day you when you were working as a field tech or whatever, you were probably around new substations that were just energized so had very little, if any, load current.  Nowadays, you're an office man, going to existing substations operating at full capacity trying to figure out expansion plans.  Higher current = higher magnetic field...
The other possible  reason... 345kv (or any voltage) substations are sometimes designed with higher than usual bus spacing to reduce the short circuit bracing that is needed.  The further apart the busses, the better for short circuit forces, however, the voltage gradient in the air actually increases.  So maybe you walked in a sub with long bus spacing, and felt that voltage gradient.

Or maybe you're just old and rusting now..
 

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
zer0sequence,
Option 2 sea more likely :). Some of these stations are the exact same as I was in while in the field, and their load currents were high back then too.  Standard bus spacing too.  I've come to believe that for some reason I've developed a bit of hypersensitivity to fhe emf.  I was in a 138kv yard just last Friday and had the same sensation at a much less intensity level.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

RE: jraef (Electrical)  1 Apr 11 10:48
"Gunnar (skogsgurra) had a great story a few years ago about divining the source of a "tingle" people were experiencing in a lake somewhere..."

The story (start of it) is here.

http://svt.se/2.33831/1.629601/el_misstanks_komma_ut_i_annabodasjon?page1851421=0

Run it through a translation program of your choice.

It turned out to be little animals (less then a mm dia) that swarmed in the water. They were contained in transparent jelly balls and couldn't be seen easily. But people felt them between their fingers and a rumour that the lake was electrified started and spread like wildfire.

If the OP thinks that he is sensitive to the electric field, then it is very easy to test if that is the case: When you are in a place where the feeling is intense, then put a grounded metallig screen between you and the source. Even a chicken net will work.

Magnetic elf sensitivity does not exist. There have been so many tests run so there is no doubt about its non-existance.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I worked in 230 KV switch and substations for a couple of summers in college, and always had a problem with the static electricity.  Never could shake it.

That being said, there are a lot of conditions we are only discovering today and are learning to deal with.  Don't rule out anything until you find out why.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

So we shouldn't rule out trolls, fairies and elf(s)?  

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I love my job.

I often get tingly at the prospect of a new high voltage substation.

old field guy

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Quote (skogsgura):

So we shouldn't rule out trolls, fairies and elf(s)?
...elves
Gunnar, haven't you been on the Internet lately? Trolls abound in chat rooms and foums, fairies are all over (especially here in San Francisco, not that there's anything wrong with that...) and elves? Who do you think makes the internet repairs at night?
wink

"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln  
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies  

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Money quote from above link:

Quote:

Taken as a whole, the provocation studies strongly suggest that EHS symptoms are not related to actual exposures to electric or magnetic fields, and that electromagnetically hypersensitive individuals are no better than non-hypersensitive individuals in detecting the presence of fields.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Hi DPC,

I guess that the conclusion is that the there is not consensus regarding this issue.

Furthermore, I suspect that the power industry, researchers, academy, application engineers and legislators do no fully understand the EMF effect in humans.
 

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Do you think that doctors that specialize in allergic problems and nerve system functions understand? They have been involved in the research. I know - I have followed the research for more than 25 years - and they (the doctors) have never found any correlation between actual exposure and reactions in human cells, tissue, organs or the body as such. It all seems to be a psychologic thing.

A psycological problem is also handicapping, but the problem is that most victims want 'society' to take technical actions to help them. Or they move to places where they think they are safe. That usualy is deep woods, deserts, mountains etcetera. One of our neighbours did that and killed himself when the gas heater in his camper consumed all oxygen. He had definitely been better off not to care.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I'm thinking that trial lawyers have the best understanding of the effects of "EHS symptoms" especially as relating to settlement of lawsuits and collection of contingency fees.

old field guy

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
Skogsgurra,
I can tell you that for me it's a physical reaction.  I know the mind can influence that sort of thing, but the first couple of times I noticed it, I wasn't even thinking about it.  Keep in mind, that I've worked near energized equipment for 7+ years and was exposed to it daily.  Even while being an office employee, I would make field visits, and never noticed it.  I can say that on a couple of occasions, I visited two yards in a day, and I would notice it in one and not the other (both 345kV yards, both times).  The last time I was in a 345kv yard it was the most noticable. (this was a heavily loaded station, which I actually didn't think about until after I left).  I could definitely feel the change the closer (horizontally obviously) I would get to the equipment.  When I would take a few steps back the feeling subsided.  

I guess you don't have to believe me, and if you want to think it's in my head, that's fine, and maybe it partly is.  All I know is that I am having physical effects when I am in a high voltage yard.  They basically include tingling sensation (mostly in arms) and a general uncomfortable feeling (I know that's a generic term, but it's the best I can give).

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

The sensation that you describe is very real. I feel that, too. And also when the electric field outdoors is high (thunderstorm). You can convince yourself that the effect is electrostatic by doing the experiment I described in an earlier post (use a grounded shielding net).

This kind of reaction has been known at least since the eighteenth century when people were experimenting with glass and resin electricity and Leiden Jars or whatever.

That is pure physics and no need to involve mystical forces or reactions. We all feel that and most of us don't worry.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

(OP)
Skogsgurra ,
I'm not exactly worried, I just find it strange that I feel at it a much higher intensity level than I ever did before.  Maybe I was acclimitized to it.  My real concerns are two.  First (and this is probobly the least) would I be able to return to the field on a day to day basis?
Second-is this indicitave of any health concerns?   I know this may not be the best thread to figure that out, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I have worked in the same environment as you for many decades. In steel works, paper mills, power stations and so on. Perhaps not so often in the HV switchyards, but often enough to count as a 'switch-yard man'. The discussion about hypersensitivity is an ongoing thing and lots of research has been made over the years. I have been involved in some of that research and also corresponded with a few of the better known specialists.

Many of the studies have concentrated on finding out if individuals that say that they are sensitive to electric and magnetic fields really can sense such fields. Many of the people that say that they are hypersensitive do not want to partake in such studies. The reason seems to be that they receive welfare money (such money is very generously distributed in Sweden) and that they think that money will be withdrawn if they don't perform 'well' enough. Those that has taken part in the studies have never, yes NEVER, been better at telling if power is on or not.

There are no known health effects as long as the fields do not exceed certain limits that are laid down in national health regulations and those limits are way lower than field strengths that cause any harm. The limit that comes close to any practical existing field strength is the SAR dose from mobile phones. The field strength from cellular towers is very low in comparison with the field strength when using the phone near your head.

The worries are more harmful than any real effects from power lines, transformers, motors or any devices you come close to.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

I have felt an electric field while doing a DC high potential test on a ship that was in a shipyard for repairs. There were a few people in the small compartment to witness the test. At about 20kV or so I heard one of the witnesses say that he could feel the field. I looked up from the high potential tester to see him holding his arm pointed towards the cable end that was being tested.

I reached out in the same direction and felt as if I was sticking my hand into an invisible bubble of tingling energy. I reached in to about the middle of my forearm and the sensation was greatest at my hand and decreased back to an 'edge of the bubble' at about the middle of my forearm.

For a fleeting moment I thought about how cool it was to feel an electric field and then I realized how foolish it was to be poking around in the field. Everyone pulled back and the test continued.

At about 30kV the cable arced about two feet through the air to the steel deck. The cable was pretty long and pretty capacitive so the arc was almost like a little lightning bolt.

I do remember that the ambient conditions were very, very hot and very, very humid. I do not recall if there was any obvious source of ozone at the time such as a thunderstorm or nearby welding operations.

I have never felt an electric field like that before or since. Of course, I have also not seen an arc like that through open air at any voltage. This does not include a switching arc, this means a breakdown voltage arc across air.

 

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

Cap Banks on or off?

RE: Tingling sensation while in Substation

no caps. just a 900-1000' cable in metallic conductor where the entire run was faced with a perfect ground conductor, ie. the metallic conduit was attached every few feet to an almost perfect ground return path provided by the steel hull and frame of the ship.

I am saying that the installation produces a big capacitive effect even though there are no actual capacitors present.  

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