Power Supply Options
Power Supply Options
(OP)
Is there a place on Eng-Tips where power supply options for the Earth are discussed? It looks like nuclear will be out of favour for a few decades and it is hard to take wind and solar seriously as major reliable components of a supply mix. Natural gas seems to be in favour in spite of its generation of CO2.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca





RE: Power Supply Options
forum633: -Energy engineering general discussion
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: Power Supply Options
Various of the 'global warming' etc. threads started out discussing these kinds of topics.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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So...politicians are the way forward?
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HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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"Brown also claims "330,000 extra jobs have been created in Germany because of legislation moving to a clean, green energy future". If only.
The figure of 330,000 green energy jobs may well be true if you add up all employees working in industries such as wind energy, biomass and solar power.
But were these extra jobs created as a result of green legislation? And at what cost?
First, it is necessary to count the costs of the alleged green jobs miracle. A study by the respected economic research institute RWI concluded that every single worker in these industries had been supported to the tune of E175,000 ($240,000). Given this enormous subsidy, it is remarkable how few jobs have been created."
and...
"Germany is a good example. ... it has led the world in solar panel subsidies, spending $US75 billion putting inefficient, uncompetitive solar technology on rooftops.
This delivers a trivial 0.1 per cent of Germany's total energy supply and will postpone the effects of global warming by just seven hours in 2100."
Thirdly. Every MW of windpower needs a MW of conventional SPARE generation to cover for lack of wind. Solar isn't quite that bad, as you can pretty much rely on getting 40% of the energy you expected on a given day.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Power Supply Options
If you bring CO2 emissions partially into the mix, it's probably wind with natural gas turbines as back-up.
If you bring CO2 emissions totally into the mix, the only way forward is a total re-think of the way we produce and use energy. I'm of the opinion that this is needed regardless of AGW fears, simply because fossil fuels are finite and have other, non-fuels uses which are FAR harder to substitute with other sources.
Any traction the nukers got over the past 20 years is gone now after Fukishima. The only way a new nuker could ever be constructed is if government limits the civil liability of the people who own and operate the plants. Governments in North America are not anxious to be owner/operators themselves, and I doubt the populace will be too willing to allow their governments to underwrite the liability of private for-profit owner/operators of new nukers after Fukishima.
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HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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RE: Power Supply Options
With some of the new cycles using working fluids other than water, the temp difference between the hot & cold 'reservoirs' don't need to be as big as they have been historically, which opens up possibilities in places not previously considered.
Geothermal can also be used for heating without turning it into electricity.
In fact, the earth can be used as a 'sink' for both heating and cooling of buildings as the temperature is generally pretty stable just a few feet below ground - as demonstrated in many cave systems.
Of course, one wonders if extracting all that heat from below ground and effectively dumping it into the atmosphere will have some negative consequence. Or maybe drilling shafts for geothermal will cause it's own problems if done in the wrong place.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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http://www.dilbert.com/2011-03-29/
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You are either
a. underinformed
b. practicing for a beauty pageant
c. pushing an agenda
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HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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If you watch television long enough, you can be certain to find all the needed solutions, or at least see all the reruns of Beverly Hillbillies.
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Also no has pointed out that natural gas generation isen't fast enough to back up wind power. Right now the only thing that is backing up wind power is the inerta of all that coal, nucular, and hydro electric generation.
The joke here is "look at that 30 MW cloud", which seems true that one cloud can reduce electric demand by 30 MW or more.
So maybe the best alternitive is more clouds to reduce electric energy demand.
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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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http:/
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?
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"natural gas generation isn't fast enough to back up wind power"
I have no experience in this area but I thought a gas turbine would speed up quite quickly. I do have experience running equipment on the end of a long natural gas pipeline and there is no more reliable source of energy. Almost everything can be down but the pipeline unpacks as required.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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Is this fast enough? Depends:)
Regards,
Mike
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That's why 'pump store' power-plants exist as I recall it.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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http://en
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I'm not sure pumped Hydro is any faster than gas units. I do know of hydro units than take over two minuites to open the needle valve, and maybe some time to come on line. But pumped hydro is a good idea to store peak wind.
Right now wind is so small it dosen't rock the grid that much. but with more farms it will get to a criticle point, if things continue the way they are.
Only the short term storage technologys can smooth out wind to work with either gas or pumped hydro. but no wind farm I've seen has added those.
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Come one come all !
Fe
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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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Regards,
Mike
(mauricestoker, how 'bout those flashlights you shake, could be adapted, hey?)
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covers our subject as "Could Shale Gas Power the World".
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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Perhaps something could be done with the thermocline in the ocean. Stirling engines operate on low temperature deltas - perhaps pumping cold water up from the ocean floor in conjunction with a solar collector would be a viable source of power in tropical regions.
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However, it does still seem to me underutilized.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraPower,_LLC
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Fe
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1) Japan ... the lesson learnt seems to be "nuclear bad", but i htink the lesson should be "pressurised water reactors are problematic, maybe we should look into new design concepts ... pebble reactors"
2) energy sources ... if petroleum based energy is so bad, shouldn't we be encouraging India and China to develop their economies along electrical lines (which we see more/better future potential) rather than developing our (bad) petroleum based economy ? Instead, we're encouraging the to burn as much petroleum as they can get their hands on ('cause they're a developing economy and blah, blah, blah).
3) Renewable energy ... sure there are some places where sunlight/wind are reliable sources, but not as widespread as they're being applied.
4) Alternative energy ... biomass maybe, corn (foodstocks) doesn't sound like a great idea (in a world that's hungry), wave/tidal/geothermal ... niche apps (at best) ... SPS ? (Solar Power Satelites).
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Want to know the future? It'll be more of the same, plus some new stuff (but only gradually). And it will cost more.
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Obviously now we have some reason to believe that burning all that fossil fuel may have had negative consequences that outweigh some of the benefits but that's easy to say now we're at the standard of living etc. that we're at.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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the market doesn't dictate what happens ... politics does (because politics can adjust the market to suit it own ends).
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The overshoot between being too market friendly (self-interested) and too socially conscientious is one way of looking at the never ending swing between Right and Left wing majorities in many political systems.
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politicians are catering to environmental activists that are telling them that the world as we know it will end in a few short years because of globabl warming that is caused by our out of control consumption of fossil fuels which can all be reversed by giving tax credits for producing green energy and LEED certification and penalizing those who dare to burn anything. The ultimate solution is to make laws that artificially raise the price of energy to high levels such that demand is greatly reduced, thus forcing complete change over to alternative energy which will reverse the climate change. All of this globabl warming hysteria based on admittedly sketchy "science", much of which was paid for by the same politicians and environmentalists and with the end result in mind prior to the study, it is not surprising what the results of the studies have been.
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From a practical point of view, making a model that is accurate to the fraction of a degree is dubious. Measuring temperatures to the fraction of a degree is difficult. Can you imagine the difficulty associated with creating a thermal model of the entire planet? Do we really want to hang our hat on these numbers?
The other dubious side of things is money. Currently, there is a lot of money involved in global warming predictions and research. A cynical person might question whether the money involved might influence the direction of the research.
I'm all for innovation. I think that cleaner energy producing technologies are desirable and environmental legislation is required for maintaining a clean environment. However, increasing the cost of energy by limiting things like carbon dioxide emissions based on computer models that have thus far proven inaccurate seems ill-advised. Actually, it hurts people. Especially poor people who spend a larger portion of their disposable income heating their houses and turning on the lights at night.
I know this is a bit off topic for this thread, but CO2 has been mentioned several times, so I wanted to address it.
It's interesting: When I was in elementary school we watched filmstrips about the coming ice age. Now we're concerned about rising temperatures. From my understanding, many of the same people were involved in both sets of predictions.
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Unfortunately, the silliness never ends, no matter who the clown is. I remember in the Reagan years the "killer trees" concept, where trees were responsible for lowered air quality and acid rain. When that feel out of vogue, the converstion turned to cattle farts being responsible for the ozone layer going away.
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
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i think we need new ideas to tackle our energy consumption.
petroleum is limited (ok we won't run out tomorrow, but some time). ok, we've got loads of coal, NG, shale-oil, tar sands, etc but these'll return less energy (ie will be more expensive and intrusive). there's the nuke option, but pressurised water reactors are inherently dangerous (ok, fallible).
renewables (solar, wind, wave, geothermal, etc) will only be IMHO niche producers of energy. there are some places where they'll reliably produce output, and lots of places where they'll be unreliable.
biomass ... maybe, why not ? it'll be expensive to start with, but that'll reduce as the techniques get improved. using foodstocks in a hungry world sounds more than a bit daft.
of course the long term hope (dream?) is fusion, but that is for the later 2st century.
SPS, new nuke designs ... why not ?
energy is going to get more expensive. the demand for energy is only going to increase. the rational thing for us engineers to consider is how to improve efficiency and how to "exploit" other sources of energy.
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He works out that if everything renewable was done a European country could generate about 25% of that.
His conculsion is simple:"Let's be realistic. Just like Britain, Europe can't live on its own renewables. So
if the aim is to get off fossil fuels, Europe needs nuclear power, or solar
power in other people's deserts (as discussed on p179), or both."
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Power Supply Options
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Power Supply Options
I can remember seeing in PA a pair of dams with a pump between them. Excess power was used to pump the water uphill during the offpeak so it could be used during the peak. I am sure better ways of doing this could be sought.
I also disagree that nuclear power is completely out of the agenda for the next couple of years 40 year old nuclear power has no comparison to modern ones. Back then computers were the size of a room.
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Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Power Supply Options
None of them make any economic sense until there's a price on carbon emisssions to the atmosphere.
This is not a technical problem. It is an economic one.
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I was doing reearch last night, watching an Austin Powers rerun, and I think the Swedish pump makers have the lead, not the flash light shakers.
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WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S. 4/5/11 (PennWell) --
Hydropower is a clean, efficient renewable energy source that is poised to play a larger role in the nation's renewable energy portfolio, U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski told hundreds of hydropower professionals gathered at the 2011 National Hydropower Association Annual Conference in Washington, D.C. The senator's NHA address followed on the heels of her introduction of the bipartisan Hydropower Improvement Act of 2011, which is aimed at boosting U.S. hydropower generation.
WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S. 4/5/11 (PennWell) --
U.S. Department of Energy Secretary Steven Chu and U.S. Department of the Interior Secretary Ken Salazar have announced $26.6 million in funding for research and development projects to advance hydropower technology, including pumped-storage hydropower.
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For pump stores I'd have thought ways to get them online even quicker might be beneficial. Perhaps more efficient pumps & turbines etc. could be developed as well.
As to the supposed environmental issues, hydropower may not be as 'green' as some like to think. If the area flooded has a lot of vegetation then supposedly as it rots it adds considerable green house gases in it's own right. Plus there are all the little critters that get flooded that may upset other shades of greenies.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Power Supply Options
RE: Power Supply Options
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
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htt
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Regards,
Mike
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"Alaska senate clears proposed hydroelectric power project"
The Alaska Senate has approved a bill allowing the Alaska Energy Authority to build and operate a hydroelectric project on the Susitna River. The project, estimated to cost from $4 billion to $5 billion, is seen as a way to help meet energy demands in the Railbelt region. The measure goes next to the Alaska House for consideration. AlaskaDispatch.com (4/19)
http
RE: Power Supply Options
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Power Supply Options
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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Or did they do that already:)
Regards,
Mike
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HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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It adds a very significant energy cost to production, so while helping to reduce atmospheric CO2 levels (maybe) it will increase costs somehwat (but less than most alternative energy sources) and speed the depletion of fossil fuel reserves.
As to whether it is feasible, I don't know.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Power Supply Options
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Isn't that the agenda?
Regards,
Mike
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There is lots of coal, and suitable storage basins cover most of Alberta and Saskatchewan, and run east from Sarnia to the St. Lawrence. CCS has got to be a candidate interim solution, until we figure out the low cost, high efficiency solutions. I have experience with capture of CO2, and with storage of product in the salt caverns in Sarnia. That just leaves the pipeline bit to figure out.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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The economics have to make a kWh saved worth every bit as much as a kWh of new generation, or NOTHING will get done, because the smart money will avoid the whole mess. The most the "dumb" money will be able to do is to provide a distraction in the media and some ribbon-cutting opportunities for politicians looking for re-election.
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The project, called Belo Monte, has been in the planning stages for three decades, and the focus of opposition by environmental and Indian-rights groups for almost as long.
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A lot more wind energy could be incorporated into the grid if they (a) upgrade older radar from the 50's to filter out the wind turbine image and thus invalidate the current construction prohibition in many areas plus (b) develop an effective means to store excess power from the wind turbines, perhaps underground CAES compressed air energy storage which would feed gas turbines during peaks of high demand/ low wind availability plus (c) smart grid automatic shutdown of high amp consumer appliances ( hot water heater, drier) during short upsets in available wind energy.
Latest low cost PV solar will be more prevalent- see for example UniSolar flexible paanels that easily attach to steel roofing panels- espescailly if newer local building codes mandate such use.
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Regards,
Mike
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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Power Supply Options
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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or is it more related to normal ebbs and flows of sunspots and solar flares and eccentricities in the earths orbit around the sun? The known facts are that the earth's temperature has a cyclical fluctuation that has occurred for thousands of years. It is a bit egotistical to think that this is occurring solely because of increase burning of fossil fuels by humans.
Global warming is postulated and has not even reached the level of a theory due to a serious lack of hard evidence to support it. It certainly is not a given fact yet.
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See, if it's not CO2, then you can't control people via their energy usage - burning cheap fossil fuels. That won't do for the political overlords that have the "climate scientists™" working for them.
Real, truly independent scientists that study the climate acknowledge that humans have an impact: urban heat island effect, local heating of bodies of water near power plants (doesn't need to be fossil-fueled, either), and yes, even CO2. But the magnitude of the CO2-effect is small - certainly not enough to warrant spending Trillions of dollars. And the other effects are very localized - not enough to qualify as world-wide climate.
Which brings up another point. The whole terminology change to "climate change" is another sleight of hand trick. Of course they mean warming. But, from a geological perspective, the only constant in the climate is that it changes. Severely. And frequently. So, can we cause climate change? Possibly, but it has always changed without us, so can any scientist discern the human fingerprint in such a chaotic system? Unlikely with sufficient certainty to warrant us spending Trillions of dollars.
Oh, and if you wanted to, you could consider the entire human energy needs, assume that it is all eventually returned to heat energy, and compare that to the amount of energy we get from the big yellow ball in the sky. OK - here's the calc:
In 2008, worldwide energy usage was 474E18 J.
Total solar irradiance is 1361W/m^2. Divide that value by 4 (ratio of area of a circle vs surface area of a sphere). Total of 680.5 W/m^2.
Total surface area of the earth is 5.1E8 km^2, or 5.1e14m^2.
A standard year is 3.15569E7 seconds.
Multiply solar power by the surface area by the time, and you get 1.095E25J.
So, our energy needs are 474E18/1.095E25 - 4.378E-5 of what we get from the sun. So, nope, it's not the heat that we generate by our energy consumption.
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HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
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besides, do you know how nice it is to have jollies every so often to nice interesting places at the taxpayers expense ?? ok, you have to put up with some senseless babble from some Really boring "scientists" but then, that's the time to recover from last night's rave ...
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rb1957 - right...math... who would have thought...
What we actually know about the climate could fill a bathtub. What we know that we don't know could fill a small lake. What we don't know that we don't know could fill an ocean.
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Whose level is rising of course:)
Regards,
Mike
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As for the whole CO2/climate change debate my opinion has been that I'm (and for the most part the general population) too ignorant to know what effects are truly human caused. What I do know though is that heavy metals and other chemical pollution have effects that are easy to see and measure... why don't we work on the low lying fruit and set up proper monitoring and legislation to decrease these?