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Retaining wall failing

Retaining wall failing

Retaining wall failing

(OP)
New here - not sure if I'm in the right area or not but need assistance please.
Have retaining wall on residential property. "2 blocks high" at one end, 9 ft high at the other - curves around corner of house – double deep in one area (on a slope). I do not believe drainage was done properly. There are no "weep holes" and there is not an area below that allows water to exit from behind the wall. There is a culvert below the ground that it might be tied into. Retaining wall is separating in two areas with gaps of 5 to 6 inches between upper and lower block. Cap blocks are disintegrating as well.
Due to drainage and wall failure, corner of house is "dropping" and creating cracks in walls and ceiling inside the home as well as the cinder block in two different areas outside.
There is no record of a permit from the city (required) and the company will not reply to my emails to even a general inquiry about the wall or even the manufacturer of the block. Former home owner had it built, and rebuilt at least one time. Wall is 12+ years old.
Wondering if contractor would be responsible being a permit wasn't pulled for the damage that is being done to the house as well as rebuilding the wall properly. I live in MN.
Appreciate any help provided – or a direction I can go.  $20,000+ for a new wall, my insurance won't even look at it unless we dig the wall out and expose the corner of the house that is sinking.
Please help! Thank you in advance
 

RE: Retaining wall failing

your attorney could better advise you, however after 12 years it is unlikely that the contractor would owe you or anybody else anything. Most contractor warranties are for 1 or 2 years. And since the contract was with the former homeowner, you have no contractual relationship with the contractor. You might have some leverage with the former homeowner if you just recently bought the property and they hid important information from you about the lack of permit for the wall when you made your offer.

After just going through an adjustment with an insurance company for wind/tree damage, you should sit down with your claims adjustor and work out a plan. You might have your attorney at that meeting also...

RE: Retaining wall failing

Consult with a real estate attorney to review the validity of a possible claim against the prior homeowner, designer or builder of the wall, or local government. Consult with a lawyer who handles insurance coverage disputes to review the insurance company's denial of the claim. You may be able to establish that the collapse of the wall should be covered by your policy, but it depends on what is covered by your policy. Sometimes retaining walls are specifically excluded.

I would expect that the attorneys will cost you a minimum of $5K to $10K. You would have to pay for the lawyers yourself out of pocket, so the attorney fees will reduce any recovery that you may be able to obtain.

RE: Retaining wall failing

if there is a suit, and you win, you can recover those fees...

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
Thank you both.  I am just trying to get all the information I can - the wall is there to protect the structural integrity of the house and with the wall failing, so is the structure.  I bought the home from my former in-laws - as-is unfortunately. The thing that is frustrating me is the company that did the wall will not even provide me information about the block that was used. Luckily I work for a block mold company and they can identify it for me - but I would still like to hear from the contractor.  
Sent another email to my insurance company to find out if is something that is even covered being the wall is needed for integrity of the house.  
I hate cans of worms...they are always so damn big!! I'm ready to open the can o' woopass on this though.  All I need is for the house to fall apart and it not be covered...icing on the cake.
THanks again.

RE: Retaining wall failing

type of block really is not that important, especially since it doesn't sound like the block is failing (other than some caps). Retaining wall is a lot more than just some block. Dimensions of the wall and footing, amount and placement of steel, grouting of the block, foundation conditions, drainage, backfill matter much more. These are the things that should have been engineered and reviewed during the permit process. A 9 foot high concrete block retaining wall, designed by a contractor and no permit? That is just asking for trouble!

RE: Retaining wall failing

Can you post any pictures of the damage?  

As for the attorneys fees, if you do not ask for them, you will not get them, but asking does not guarantee that you will get them. As for the original contractor, in today's economy, he may not be in business anymore.  Is he still bonded with the State?  

Sounds like a real can of worms.  Nice present from the former inlaws!  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
I know, right? Where was the engineer?!?!
As best I can tell (without tearing it down of course) is there is nothing holding the block together - no morter, no adhesive etc - which I don't know if that is necessary or not, but it was noted. In the section that is separating - about 3ft wide in 2 sections - there is no rebar/steel visable.
It is straight up, no tiering or grade to the wall so to speak. I would think that a wall that high - with block - would need some sort of "slant" to it - but again, I don't know.  
When we had another landscape contractor out last year to look, they said they could get the caps replaced through the supplier - I believe it is Versa-lok. I was hoping to at least do that.
My husband did most of the talking with them so I am not exactly sure what they determined with the wall except that it was done very poorly and should be redone.
I am so frustrated and cannot afford to have it redone - in the mean time, I am losing the corner of my house and just found out it is considered "foundation settling" and is not covered under my insurance policy. :(

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
msquared48 - they are still in business - I have emailed with him recently but he has since stopped replying after he got the address of the property. Suspicious to me - but if they aren't liable because I am a new owner, I don't see what the issue would be and why he wouldn't reply to my email.
Still looking for a loop hole to get this fixed and not have it be ALL out of pocket...working with city now...
Again, thank you for your help.

 

RE: Retaining wall failing

wow, you're saying they built a 9 foot high wall with this? And not batter? I'm surprised it has last this long

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
This is what I'm saying...
I will post a pic of the full wall once my DH sends it to me. Get ready to shake your head...

RE: Retaining wall failing

As far as  can recall the VersaLok units were all designed to have a "batter" and provisions to hold geo-grid when an engineered design was required. No rebar or steel in used in a SRW wall and they should not be placed on a concrete footing, since it is a "flexible" structure even if the wall is 40' high.

"Weep" holes are not required because of the vertical joints between adjacent block and quality backfill must be used and perforated pipe is usually recommended if it is suitable.

The 5" to 6" spacing between the walls is troublesome. If they are tiered walls to avoid the 4' or 5' height code requirements, they should be separated by many feet horizontally.

VersaLok is sold to both contractors and resale markets, so there it becomes difficult to determine the liability beyond the contractor. There also many "knock-off" brands made by others that do not have engineers available for support.

If the wall was rebuilt and failed a second time, it sounds like a poor, amateurish design.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)

RE: Retaining wall failing

The damage in your first picture is due to freeze-thaw action, with consequent spalling of the cap.  

Waiting for the encore....  Can I laugh?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Retaining wall failing

The distress in your house is not necessarily due to the failure of the "retaining wall".  The house may have been founded too high, in unconsolidated fill material.  The two failures are related, but solving one may not solve the other.

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
Spalling?
So what you are saying is it is all due to freeze/thaw? Is that typical? How do "you" keep it from happening? How do I save my house from sliding down the front hill?
Does all block crumble like that in this situation? It's not happening on the other side of the house, but it is not the same block.
You can laugh - at me :)

Thank you

RE: Retaining wall failing

The freeze-thaw damage in the picture is not related (at least not much) to the wall failing structurally as it appears to be an unreinforced gravity wall.  Two different animals here as Hokie alluded to.  

Just post the other pictures before Happy Hour so we have something to discuss.   bigsmile  

By the way, since this a worldwide forum, our happy hour runs 24/7.  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=39ee04b8-7250-4a9c-baa2-10f1993dd574&file=DSC_0008.JPG

http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=eb5c62b0-5cd6-443c-a978-aa93f20fc5be&file=DSC_0011.JPG

http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=41d246fe-ebe3-4688-b4ae-2d712e042a60&file=DSC_0012.JPG

in this pic you can (hopefully) see the white "lines" on the house where it is coming apart.
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=041eed6a-55f6-4eb0-b210-1073af57780a&file=DSC_0007.JPG

This is the ceiling in the basement - has been "filled in" but I can stick my finger in it.
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=cbf485a9-179c-4a40-9419-2a6a437474c3&file=DSC_0013.JPG

This is the corner that is coming apart
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=0984ca5c-90ce-4070-ba4a-f1b42e727894&file=DSC_0014.JPG

and the walls upstairs - have all been patched so not sure how easily visable it is.
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a6d1f575-a979-47b8-bc91-5f684540e684&file=DSC_0015.JPG
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=716befd4-37f6-4ad6-8ade-a3223732d088&file=DSC_0016.JPG

and more outside
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=61e81d86-9b09-446e-912c-999da806efa4&file=DSC_0017.JPG
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=e3a52df5-9e48-4412-91dc-062aa2538b26&file=DSC_0018.JPG
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=f666e29a-0626-47cd-a593-f4cfd15392df&file=DSC_0019.JPG
http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=5e198af8-5c2d-4437-bbd7-8754f5e8c7cc&file=DSC_0020.JPG

That's all I have.

 

RE: Retaining wall failing

OOOH...  I have to look at the other pics yet, but just the first picture makes me think that the curved extension of the upper wall was placed on unconsolidated fill, and perhaps the foundation of the house too.  The rest of the wall appears OK in bearing, the there is a soft spot at the curve where the block probably does not extend to firm bearing.

I think you need to call in a Geotech here.  It is warranted.

I will continue looking...    

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Retaining wall failing

My emphasis would be on fixing your house, which will likely require some underpinning.  The slope stabilisation can wait, unless it all falls over.

RE: Retaining wall failing

I agree with Hokie here.  Use the pin pile as that is the best option, short and long run.  However, you will still need a geotech to tell you the allowable value for the pin pile to use, and a structural engineer to get it past your local jurisdiction.

Considering what happened, the jurisdiction should be willing to work with you.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Retaining wall failing

since you are in Minnesota, you must have a basement. Based on the photos and my pitiful attempt to figure out the layout and elevation of your site, it appears that the basement is cut into the side of a hill. Top of retaining wall is approximately level with your first floor? And where you are standing in the photos would be just about basement floor level? so if my assumption is correct, the house is not built on fill.  The fill was placed against the front of the basement wall and retained to create a flat yard? If so, then could the retaining wall failure and the basement wall failure be un-related? However, I do see a downspout at the corner of the house. I do not see that pipe exiting over the side of your retaining wall. It appears it is draining right below your cracked section and right behind the part of the wall where it is failing. Almost certainly, that is a contributing factor.

RE: Retaining wall failing

After looking at the photos provided, the installation should have been engineered instead of arbitrarily breaking the wall into different portions and just applying some information based on low "gravity walls" to make it look good at first. The drainage systems are obviously poor and not maintained.

Looking at the geography and trees surrounding the home (and living in the area for many years), it appears that as earlier posters commented on, are correct that this was a hillside site the was excavated for the foundation and basement and later filled. The wall construction followed later without any real engineering and using segments to partially get around some unenforced permitting requirements and neglecting the upper wall segment loads that allowed the settlement/distortion and possible loss of support for the home foundation.

I was involved in the early use of segmental retaining walls and later, during international travels (Europe, China, Australia, South America, etc.) and saw some amazing engineered walls in harbors or along a freeway with set-back walls and individual walls over 40' high. All of the major product developers/ franchisers/licensors have good engineering support for all engineers to consult with, but because of the rash of firms being able to produce similar units there have been many poor examples due to miss-use or poor quality control. I was also a part of a durability study on the problem of the caps that involved many DOTs, etc to arrive at a standard, which hopefully has been corrects by ASTM product and testing standards. One of the big problems was the acceptance of silicone to provide an attachment of the solid cap block to the wall.

In our area, the counties and municipalities have standard construction and use standards for use in the field regarding the routine use of low gravity gravity walls (under 5' high) for road realignment/widening, sidewalk construction, but rely on the approved suppliers to assist in the engineering.

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

RE: Retaining wall failing

Agree with other comments.  The two issues are not necessarily related, although there is certainly evidence that points to a relationship.

The segmental block wall quite possibly does not have filter fabric or a drainage layer behind it.  It appears, as Mike noted, that the foundation for the wall has failed at least in an isolated location.  Considering the gaps there is likelihood of some lateral material drift, which reduces or changes the density of the material under the house, thus might be a contributor to the observed settlement.

Agree that you need to fix the house foundation.  Pin piles or helical anchors would likely be the better options.  Both can be installed with relatively portable equipment.

The wall can be disassembled and rebuilt on a proper foundation. You have some obvious freeze-thaw damage to some of the blocks.  Be sure to consider that when you re-purchase.

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
Thank you all.
cvg - you are somewhat correct. The house (duplex)is built into a hill, but to the best of my knowledge, it was not filled. The house to the west was excavated to be flat, and has a cinder block retaining wall from the end of my wall to the back of the property line -  all others around are level with our back yard - and my street (front yard) is level with the street and neighbors to the west. Swampland to the north, neighbors retaining wall to the east. So there is a defined hill that the house was built into - not saying there wasn't some sort of fill being it is "3M swampland" in the front. Correct - drain pipe leads directly into the wall with no exterior exit - but possible tie into culvert draining into swamp.
House built in 1976 - by an electrician who cut every corner he could from what we have see thus far. Yes - thank you former in-laws so much for the money pit. Now I know why they did a "by owner" sale. Ugh...what a headache. So if I understand correctly, I need to contact a geotech and an engineer to have them come take a look-see. And they should be able to help determine what is causing what? Recommend anyone in MN - twincities area?

RE: Retaining wall failing

just thinking outside the box here:

since the basement wall was originally built at grade and then later soil was placed against it and retained with a wall, additional load was placed on the concrete basement wall. that wall may or may not have been designed to handle the additional soil load. Could that additional loading be causing additional stress on the basement wall which is then transferred to the structure above? - thus causing the cracking that is being atributed to foundation settlement?... Will the insurance policy cover that and can you prove it?

RE: Retaining wall failing

The only party you can sue is the seller. Since you're no longer related to them, don't feel bad about it. You may have an uphill battle assuming you were given the opportunity to inspect the property. If no problem was visible but the owner knew of a problem you could have a case for negligence. On the other hand - and granted, laws vary among the states - "As Is" doesn't necessarily mean a house can be sold "As Is." Ugly paint & carperting is one thing but a structural problem or non-functioning heating, etc is different.

Also, if you could identify the manufacturer of the wall, a technical rep might be willing to give you some free advice on a remedy. No one likes to see their product get a bad rap.

RE: Retaining wall failing

To be frank,

I would recommend you get a structural/civil engineer involved that has experience at underpinning/subsidence surveys. It is like sherlock holmes detective stuff sometimes and it is often the minute clues that you find on site that tell the true story.

Compared to a proper survey, the comments on this site are mere educated guesses.

Not sure that you could sue the previous owners as houses are usually sold 'as seen' but we are not really the people to ask. From my experience a non legal solution usual has a more predictable outcome (can you afford for 50k plus of legal fees if your case fails?)

Focus on ensuring that the house is adequately supported first as this is the most expensive structure.

Not sure where the 20k sum comes from but I imagine that the damaged parts of the wall could be rebuilt and the capping stones replaced for considerably less.

Dont stress too much about the cracks, I have seen much worse, and most cracks are really an aesthetic issue rather than a structural problem in themselves.

RE: Retaining wall failing

I would contact Holme on Homes which is a TV show and find out if he could help restore the retaining wall.  I don't believe he charges since the repairs would be televised nationwide.  

RE: Retaining wall failing

(OP)
Chicopee - I've looked into that - he only does work in Canada :( Would be great though! He would have a hay day with this house! It would have to be a mini-series, not just one episode! LOL!

Again, thank you everyone. I was just at a trade show in Vegas for ICPI and tossed around many conversations. Heard a lot of the same things there as I did here...which didn't surprise me.

I will keep you updated.

City got back to me - they have no record of any permits being pulled for this property except for the roof we replaced last summer.  That didn't make me very happy. She even had the IT Dept go through archives...nothing. Wish I would have known these things 8 years ago. Hind sight...

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