Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
(OP)
I work for a large automative company. At my manufacturing site there is no liscensed PE. We typically hire out our large scale projects that require building modifications. We are always trying to save money. As an Engineer where should I draw the line for getting things "certified" by a PE. As an example I have three projects right now that typically have been "certified" by a PE, 1. A lifting device for moving a component of the equipment, design done by me, manufactured in house with our skilled trades. Usually I would get the drawing checked by a consulting firm PE, then the device load tested after build. 2. We need to tear out a piece of equipment and provide a cat walk for access around where the equipement was, this includes resupporting a deck and installing a catwalk. I did the design work and the drawings, is it required that a PE checks this over and stamps it. 3. We want to relocate a jib hoist from one area to another and mount it on a building column. I did a drawing for this and would normally send this to a PE to have them check it out and makes sure everything was ok. What should an industrial sites liability / legal requirement / ethical position be on these types of projects. Can we save money and trust our own design work? Is there liabilty for the designing engineer if something where to fail? Just looking for ways to save my company money and questioning what the normal practices have been. Any discussion around this topic would be appreciated.
And on a side note is there any training to be had or given to engineers that are asked to do these types of projects?
And on a side note is there any training to be had or given to engineers that are asked to do these types of projects?





RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Now talk about liability. Let's say you build the catwalk without a building permit, it happens all the time. Your design called for it to be strong enough for 10 300 lb guys to be on it concurrently with a huge safety factor. Then someone hangs a 25 ton chain fall from it and tries to pull an engine off its foundation. The catwalk collapses and kills the janitor walking by. In the ensuing lawsuit it comes out that there was no permit, no PE, and your name is all over the file. There is a real good chance that your company and you personally have satisfied the standard of "gross negligence". Directors of the company, your supervisor, and you personally could all end up in actual jail for this.
The thing I find funny is that you could even find a PE willing to "check your work and stamp the design". The stamp means that the PE was in "responsible charge of the design". The reason for this is that in your scenario, the PE would have considerable pressure to just accept your design or risk losing a client. He's not in charge of you, you pay his invoices. Him stamping your design is certainly unethical and possibly illegal.
I would certainly contact a lawyer before starting down this road.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
As far as the PE's I have worked with they will generally go over drawings check the design, send the drawings back and I would revise the drawing and send it back -- putting him "in charge of the design" I have done this with Three different PE's without concern on there end.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
If you modify the structure of a building in any way, it requires a permit. You cannot get a permit in most jurisdictions without a signed/sealed drawing or report done by a licensed professional engineer.
If you are modifying the building without a permit, you're violating the law. If you design such modifications without a license, you are violating another law.
Not good all around.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Different countries and even different states have differing requirements, so an idea ow which jurisdiction or jurisdictions may help focus the answers.
Certainly here some things can be done provided it is proved that codes are met by submission of detailed plans for approval then inspection by regulators at various stages of constriction. Other things require an engineers certificate from an engineer with an approved qualification or license.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
The term "Licensed PE" seems to be a US thing. In Canada or the UK he would have asked about a "Chartered Engineers", other cultures would have other terms of reference. From the sound of the post I'd further guess that he's from Kentucky or Michigan in the US. Just a guess.
David
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Pat..you are correct. The term "PE" implies US. Canada uses P.Eng., the UK uses Chartered Engineer, and I believe in Oz the term is RPE. The style of the vernacular and the industry of the OP would imply northern US.
Given that, almost all states subscribe to the International Building Code or their state's modification thereof. That's what led to the comment on structural modifications...
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
I just think in principle it is up to the OP to make the very relevant details apparent to all.
If I am inquiring about a code that applies to Qld Australia, I should say so instead of simply using the word crikey and expecting you to interpret that hint correctly.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction,alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures.
The only exception allowed by Michigan law is for a designated agricultural building.
Engineers licensed in Michigan must be familiar with these provisions.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Do you think Big-Billion Oil Company located in the middle of PoDunk, USA is going to run to the local building department for a permit on a 60 x 200 shed?? First of all, there is probably no code enforcement in the area. And second of all, they are not going to let some code inspector on their property and slow down their plans. It just doesn't seem to happen - at least from what I have seen. They are far more worried about OSHA or maybe the Fire Department - who can shut them down. Maybe the state should step in - but most don't really have inspectors and surely don't want to upset the tax dollar flow.
That said, yes, the Engineer of Record must and should follow all codes and engineering ethics. He/she is responsible!!.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
California, for example, does allow for exemptions, even for building related activities:
> various exemptions for wood-frame residences and buildings, unless they deviate from building codes
> exemption for building alterations that do not affect structural safety
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
You don't know what you don't know!!
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
The UK does not license engineers- they have voluntary Charter membership. Every repairman in the UK is an "engineer".
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
David
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
First, licensed engineers are generally required to be cognizant of code issues. In some states it's mandatory. In Michigan, there are no continuing education requirements for licensed engineers (I'm licensed in Michigan, so I know that is the case).
There are training and continuing education courses for building codes(www.iccsafe.org)at most any level you want and any code or subcode. Standards are different than building codes. You generally have to research those yourself. There are two levels of standards that you need to consider...(1) those standards referenced in the building code (they become part of the code by reference), and (2) those standards required for materials and generally accepted practices for the work you are doing. That's a bit more nebulous and requires research.
How would you know? You wouldn't. If the work done on your building is done by an outside contractor, depending on the extent of the work he would have to obtain a building permit. A licensed contractor is obligated to follow the code, which means they must obtain a permit for construction work.
If everything is done "in-house", then it is likely that no one will ever know until (a) the building is sold and an inspection is done and someone questions undocumented changes (b) a failure occurs and someone gets hurt or there is reportable property damage (c) your insurance company decides it wants to inspect your facility (d) a fire inspector squeals on you, or (e) someone else squeals on you.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Section 105 states when you need a permit
Section 106 states what documents you need to submit for a permit
Srction 106.3.4 states that the building official is authorized to require that a registered design profession (PE or Architect) be in responsible charge
Section 109 states what inspections are required including Section 109.3.9 for special inspections
So the short answer is that all your questions can be answered by reading the building code. It is up to the building official to decide if you need to have stamped documents and who should stamp them, and if you need a permit.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Another choice is to contract a PE as needed.
Another choice is to go without a PE and risk the costs and collateral damage to the business if a problem arises.
A choice about risk to the business is a business decision.
That kind of stuff is above my pay grade.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
I took the EIT exam when I graduated but never pursued getting a license.
Above my paygrade to Mike.
Just trying to understand why we do the things we do:)
Thanks again to everyone for the discussion.
You can close this thread if you want.
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
How would I or anyone else know that I need to have a licensed engineer do these things.
>> Read the PE law, or get a lawyer specializing in construction to tell you
What training or documents exist to tell an engineer this is what you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing.
>> the LAW for legal, the building code for structural
But what is it that leads me to hire an PE. Knowing the IBC?
>> again, the LAW
Maybe the norm here has been wrong for some time, but would someone know this?
>> by reading the LAW
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Article 20 of Public Act 299
More specifically, exemptions and sealing:
Exemptions
Sealing
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RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Regarding the jib crane, you also have to go back to the original design of the building to ensure that the new column you're mounting it to is also capable of carrying the new load.
Tom
RE: Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer
Of course be prepared if things weren't done right, and you now have brought attention to your company.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com