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Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Question came up this past weekend during a college baseball game. Would like to get some expert opinions on the subject.

A bat's deflection at impact acts like "trampoline" for the ball so heating up the bat could possibly make it deflect more, possibly giving it more spring. On the other hand , heat it up too much and it could dampen the impact. I would think heating it up could possibly improve the hitting distance of the bat.

What do you think?

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

I vote that heating the bat would be bad for long distance hitting.

Reason being, heating the material will lower the modulus of elasticity and there by reduce the overal structural stiffness of the bat.  Lower bat stiffness would imply lower impact forces.

Interesting question though.

More interesting....who is going to hold the 500 deg F bat.

Announcer: "Next up number 9 in his thermal protective suit..."

Stephen Seymour, PE
Seymour Engineering & Consulting Group
www.seymourecg.com  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Well, composite bats have recently been outlawed in college baseball because players were "rolling" the bats which broke the composite fibers in the bat allowing more deflection and bigger "trampoline" effect. This was studied and found to give the bats a 30 to 40 ft farther hitting distance, all other variables equal.

From what I've read, the deflection of the bat "trampoline" effect, allows the ball to retain more energy. If this is the case then a bat heated could possibly have an effect on the amount of deflection as Seymore stated.  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

IR's got a good suggestion ... maybe there's data out there already.

there are obviously a couple of competing mechanisms ... would the bat absorb more strain energy if it was slightly softer ?  would a slightly softer bat return this energy more efficiently to the ball ??

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

The typical extruded and drawn 7000-series aluminum tubing is heat-treated to harden the metal. First, cleaned then tubes soak for 20 minutes in a salt bath (sodium nitrate solution) at about 900 degrees Fahrenheit, then they go immediately into cold water tank. Afterward, they are heated in an aging furnace for about 12 to 36 hours at about 300 degrees Fahrenheit to form grains in a particular size and shape and the required hardness/strength.

Research and development for the alloy determine the best hardness/strength and aging conditions.  Heating up too much will change the aging.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

We used to cryogenically treat certain types of tooling - gave it a noticably longer life.  Just dipped it in liquid nitrogen for a few minutes and let it soak.  Then took it out and let it warm back up.

Might try that??  Not sure why it might possibly work??  But it did work on golf balls!!  Supposedly??

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

It is known that an aluminum bat at 90 deg F will enable a batter to hit further with greater velocity than a bat at 50 deg F, especially if the ball is at similar temperature because it has more bounce and the trampoline effect of the bat is increased.

Warming the bat beyond 90 deg F is impractical and probably results in no added gain, especially if the ball is between 70-90 deg F.
 

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

To say nothing of the fact that a 'warmer' bat will be slightly 'larger' which should increase the 'sweetspot' as well, although I suspect by an amount which will be meaningless when you consider all of the other variables involved in successfully hitting a baseball.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Per MIL-HDBK-5, for 6061 and 7075 alloys, the elastic modulus is about 2% less when the temperature is increased from 75 to 200F. I don't know what this would translate to in distance, but it seems rather minor considering a more reasonable upper limit temperature would be far below 200F.

I am not familiar with the "rolling" of composite bats, but I could see how that would be far more dramatic than simply heating a bat by 20 or 30 deg F.

As far as a hot day versus a cold day, I suspect the change in air density would have a lot more to with that than absolute bat temperature.

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Sounds like they may need to add temperature to the testing procedures for approving an NCAA bat per the BESR testing procedure. Currently there is no temperature variable in the testing procedure.

Testing Procedure Explained (BESR):
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/besr.html

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

TrippL,

   What really matters here, the modulus of elasticity, or the aluminium's ability to recover the stored strain energy?

   Elastic modulus is important in impact analysis when you are trying to reduce the deceleration to avoid damage to equipment and people.  All a baseball bat has to do is not destroy the ball.

   It may be important that you match the elasticity of the ball and the bat.  I am trying to visualize this.  There ought to be some sort of shock wave in the ball.

    

               JHG

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Besides, if you're talking about the Major Leagues, Aluminum bats have been outlawed for years.  Hell, they get nervous if the bat is painted and you can't see the actual grain of the wood.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Wouldn't it be better to change the metallurgical characteristics only in the handle of the bat?  That way you get the "spring" without the excess energy absorption in the barrel.  Use a combo cryo/heat process!

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Ok, clarifying the original question.

College baseball has recently banned composite bats due to players "rolling" the bats breaking the fiber layers in the bat and giving the bat an increased hitting distance due to increased "trampoline" effect. Now, aluminum bats are all that is allowed. And these aluminum bats have to be BESR Test Approved. (http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/besr.html )

Looking for advantages in hitting ability, players are heating their bats before they hit. Question is, if the batter heats up his bat before he hits, can it possibly help?  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

boo1... nice to see you back...

Dik

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Could it possibly help? Sure. But by what amount? Like I said before, aluminum's elastic properties don't change very much over reasonable temperatures for human handling.

What was happening with composite bats was a completely different phenomenon. Ball players are pretty superstitious so I suspect placebo would have more affect than actually heating the bat.

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

All of the energy from the player has to go into the ball in order to hit the ball as far as s/he can.  Thus you want the bat to be as "stiff" as possible to transfer the energy.  Any deflection (trampoline effect) will use up energy thus less energy to the ball.  If no deflection, all of the energy will go into the ball, thus making the ball go further.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Oh if you heat up the bat and then a sudden cool down may make the bat more brittle thus more stiff.  So I guess if the player heats up the bat with a flame torch and then dip it in an ice bath just before going on just may give the player an extra edge, if s/he hits the ball at all LOL...

 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Twoballcane,

Actually a stiffer bat will cause the ball to lose more energy due to internal friction whereas an aluminum bat momentarily stores the energy and returns it to the ball at impact.

www.hep.fsu.edu/~wahl/phy3091/sp05/talk1/AGomesTalk1.ppt

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

TrippL, you seem to be concerned about the trampoline effect and whether or not stiffer is better.

But what I don't understand is there is a reference that demonstrates the properties do not significantly change over reasonable temperatures. I would argue that manufacturing tolerances, processing, etc. would be a more significant affect.

What else can be reasonably said about it?

 

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Trippl, your correct, my apologies, I had it backwards.  

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

If as posted by the OP "they roll the bats to break the
fibers" you would have to talking about Fiberglass or Composite Bats

http://worthsports.com/bat-technology

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

But, it would seem plausible for someone to at least try sticking an aluminum bat into a pizza oven for a couple of hours and then see what happens.  However, if there was a signficant change, that would be evident upon retesting of the BESR on that bat.

TTFN

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RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
IRstuff,

That's the point. The BESR testing does not specify a testing temperature as far as I can tell. Therefore a BESR approved bat could be tested at room temperature then heated to say 90 degrees F before you get up to bat by means of some type of heater and the bat could obtain properties that would surpass allowed BESR limits.

This is what happened during a college game last weekend. The batter got up to bat, hit then the catcher noticed the bat was "hot" to the touch so the bat was protested.

I would think that a bat manufacturer could design a bat to pass the BESR yet have better hitting properties (beyond BESR limits) when heated to say 90 degrees F. Nothing in the rules that say you can't heat a bat and no good way to enforce it.

Seems plausible to me.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

If it's suspected that the bats are being tampered with, then the bat would be BESR tested at the tampering temperature, not at any other temperature.  If the catcher indicated that the bat was hot to the touch, why would one test the bat's BESR at a normal temperature?

And this would not be that difficult to prove.  A $20k thermal camera could be used to demonstrate that a team, or a player, is using a "hot" bat, and the measured tempeature from the thermal camera would then be used in the BESR testing.

TTFN

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RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Seems like a great topic for Myth Busters and their rigorously controlled scientific method.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
IRstuff,

Great reply IRstuff. Thermal camera is a great idea that I did not even think of. As for the BESR testing, I'm sure this will be addressed before next season at the BESR testing facility. However, don't think they can test them during a game. Great post though. Very helpful.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
And MintJulep, seems like a great topic for bat manufacturers who want to give sponsored teams a little under-the-table advantage.

Mythbusters is good idea too though.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

There are a lot cheaper IR temperature measuring guns.

Maybe that I need to be in the bat warmer business like the used for race cars.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Exactly what mysterious property or event is supposed to occur by heating the bat?

For every 200F delta change there is about a 5% change in elastic modulus. There is a reliable source for this in Mil-Hdbk-5 or MMPDS. For the scenario indicated, there may have been about a 20F delta, and perhaps a 0.5% change in modulus.  

This may lead to some very minor distance change, say 2-3 ft, but this would hardly be measurable, statistically relevant, or something a governing regulation would care about. Especially for college baseball...at least that would be my guess.

Is there any other real evidence, engineering source/property, etc. to indicate otherwise? There is nothing else provided in this thread. There really does not seem anything more to it than this. Is there a counter argument to what I have said?

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Guns are cheaper, but they don't give you live video.

There's a big difference between testing for product compliance vs. testing for tampering.  In the latter case, the investigator (say, me) would use the imaged thermal data to determine the temperature of the bat and test the BESR at that temperature.  Any other temperature would be completely irrelevant to the investigation of tampering.

TTFN

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RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Speaking of thermal imaging, we had the occasion to image a wrecking ball during a demo, and impressively, we could see an increase thermal signature when the ball hit the concrete walls of the building being demo'd.  Pretty cool to see thermal physics in action.

TTFN

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RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Well...you still have to hit the ball for any of this to work.
Swing batter batter batter swing.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
ESPcomposites,

I understand that that small of a change in the temperature of standard aluminum alloy will change the modulus of elasticity that small of an amount. However, how do you get from that to only a 2-3ft change in distance? What parameters are you using in your model? Bat speed? Ball speed? Ball coefficient of restitution? Bat length? Double wall or single wall bat? Thickness of aluminum? Flexibility in the handle of the bat? Etc...? Surely a bat could be physically designed that could take advantage of the small changes in the modulus of elasticity with temperature to maximize the transference from the bat back to the ball.

 Also, surely there are numerous elements or types of alloys that have different properties which heating from 70F to 90 or 120F would maximize the delta in modulus resulting in maximized "trampoline" effect. Or if you prefer the maximum transference of kinetic energy back to the ball.

Looking for possibilities not limitations.



 

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Ron,

Very true.  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

"Speaking of thermal imaging, we had the occasion to image a wrecking ball during a demo, and impressively, we could see an increase thermal signature when the ball hit the concrete walls of the building being demo'd.  Pretty cool to see thermal physics in action."
International cricket broadcasts now include "hot spot" cameras - infra red video cameras that show clearly where the ball has struck the bat or batter.

http://www.itsonlycricket.com/entry/437/

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

TrippL,

"Looking for possibilities not limitations."

But there could be problem with this thinking. Are you sure you are being objective, and not selectively considering what you want? Are you the one who was complaining about the bat? haha.

I made the assumption that elastic modulus is the dominant property when it comes to the trampoline effect. That would seem reasonable. I would encourage you to investigate the change in modulus with varying alloys. It is relatively insensitive to alloy, heat treatment, etc. (unlike material strength).

If you determine the elastic modulus changes by only about 0.5%, then it is all relative from there. All of those other variables are relatively meaningless since even if it is not a direct relationship, the effect should be nothing more than minor. If a homerun is about 400ft, then a 0.5% difference is 2 ft. Accounting for some variability in the relationship behavior(i.e. the variables you stated), then maybe 3-4ft.

Now, if there was any other information as to the fundamental physical property that I have overlooked (i.e. that it is not based on elastic modulus), that might be another thing. But so far, there has been no mention of what that might be.

The point is, unless you have a significant change in the fundamental physical property that dictates distance, I don't see how you can have a real world difference.

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Could the Placebo effect effect be the answer since the batter thinks he has an advantage?

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

unclesyd...good point.  Confidence often goes further than skill in sports.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

It all depends on the temperature you heating up the bat.  The average temperature range to anneal is 500F to 750F.  So, to quench it after anneal would make the material harder.  You want the bat to be as hard as possible because the ball is going to be carrying your energy and when the bat hits the ball, you want the bat to transfer your energy into the ball.  This is why metal bats are not used in professionals because of how hard the bats are.  Wood absorbs the energy some, so it makes hitting a home run harder.  I hope this helps.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

rc0213,
That assumption is only true if the ball is infinitely stiff. Energy is lost when there is ball compression.

I'm surprised that the exact relation between the stiffness of the bat and ball has not been explored. To me that ratio seems to determine the maximum "trampoline effect" physically possible.
In other words minimizing the dampening effect of material deformation seems to be the name of the game.

 

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

What about shot-peening the bat to strain-harden the surface?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

I think it's funny that someone has invented the "trampoline effect". I think Newton called it "Impulse" when he came up with it. If you increase the amount of time that the ball and the bat are in contact by making it a bit squishy, you increase the momentum transferred from the bat to the ball.

Of course, there's a limit. It wouldn't do you much good to go out there swinging a noodle.

When it comes to heating up the bat? I wouldn't want to be holding it if you made it hot enough to make a significant difference in the stiffness. You'd probably have better luck rolling the aluminum bat to a slightly smaller diameter just above the handle.  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Definitely not if you heat it past the melting point.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
Flash3780,

Obviously you have not read any of the previous posts or links to explanatory material. The "trampoline effect" is a little more complicated than an impulse. It is not the same thing. This is a real world situation with an inelastic collision. Kinetic energy is lost in internal friction from the compression of the ball and bat. The internal friction of the ball compression is minimized by the bats deflection and more of this energy is returned to the ball than that of a rigid bat.

Check out Dr. Russell's (Phd in Applied Physics) work in this area: http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats.html

 

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

I would think this has more to do with the density of air than anything else.  I am betting that there are more homeruns hit in colorado than elsewhere due to air thinning .... As far as hitting the ball and the trampoline effect, the main driver of ball speed after impact is coefficient of restitution, which probably wont change much over 40 degrees.  

for reference there is a 8 % change in air density over 40 degrees

(~32 feet on a 400 foot hit is quite a large change)

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

I prefer cork in my aluminum bats.  No heating required.   

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

I played baseball untill I was 62 and hit with everything from a broom stick to hi tech composite and titanium bats. I gave into the high tech stuff and bought a very expensive top of the line ultimate bat.  Guess what...my batting average went down a bunch!!!  I switched back to a trusty 10 year old black beauty that had untold number of hits and the average came backup.

I spent hours..maybe days in the batting cage trying to get something special out of that bat.  Other guys tried it and they hit ok but not for the price of the thing. When I retired from all sports (doc said I was worn out) I donated it to an arch rival team. Nothing like giving your junk to the other guy. haha

As for heating bats..yeah it was tried, there are a number of heat pads available but by the time your grab your 'hot bat' and get to the plate it's cooled to nearly ambient. By the time you get to a 3-2 count The hottest part of the bat is where your hands are so what good does that do??  We tried it a number of times in batting practice but if there was a difference we sure didn't notice it. Even against a pitching machine there wasn't any measurable distance noted.  How hot can the bat be before you are uncomfortable with it??  40 deg over ambient I think would be pretty hot.

   

99 Dodge CTD dually.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

bentwings1, thanks for the anecdotal evidence. Everything I have said, with valid references, has indicated there would not be any noticeable effect. It would seem that you are backing that up. There has been no reasonable evidence in this thread to suggest otherwise.

Anecdotal evidence, supported by engineering data, suggests no realistic effect.

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

The differences between hot days and cold days is little to do with the bat. Its mostly about pitcher and fielder and a bit less batters. Sunny days increase the ability of batters to score high runs- partially a factor in the greatly improved results of Japanese batters for the last season. High temperatures impair the ability of pitchers to pitch and fielders to field.  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Here is a link to one of the great studies of baseball.  I've still got the book somewhere in my old baseball stuff. He investigated the bat situation pretty well. It's a good read for engineers.

The author was commissioned to do the book by MLB.

http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Baseball-3rd-Robert-Adair/product-reviews/0060084367/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

 

99 Dodge CTD dually.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Why can't we just get back to the way baseball is supposed to be played?

Sunday afternoons, sunny days, hot-dogs, Cracker Jacks, seventh inning stretch, and large doses of androstenedione...

tg

PS: I did NOT use steroids to write this post.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Alright, I don't want to hear any baby comments, but I am only a year of out of school and I did play baseball so let me throw my opinion out there.  

Around 2003-2004ish Easton introduced a two-piece bat called the stealth. It was an instant hit (no pun intended). The handle was a seperate piece from the actual barrel. In theory, as you swung the bat, the two pieces together would create a slapping effect on the ball. I would compare this to the way a golf club wraps with swung with a lot of force.  Consequently, the lfie of the bat was short. Soon after, they produced two types of the stealth, a more flexible version (for hitting longer distances) and a stiffer version (for longer life). Then, they produced a composite version of the same bat.  I never cared for it but some swore by it.  

I agree with ESPcomposites, I believe the heated Al would not make and difference and baseball players are known to be superstitous.  However, I always felt that the two piece and composites bats never performed as well in 50 degree weahter as opposed to 80-90.  We always played our first game around the 25 of Feb, very cold. Not many homeruns were hit until spring break. But one may argue that the beginning season is when players are getting back in the swing of things and will not hit as well.

Anyways, there is my two cents.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

I wish I was a baby.

I think someone should work more on extra special glasses to allow you to see the ball the way Ted Williams could. He always credited his hitting ability to his incredible eyesight.  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

(OP)
DubMac,

I think it was his sight processing speed that gave Ted his ability. It was said that he could read the trademark on the ball of a fast ball pitch while spinning and whirling towards the plate.  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Having played ball for the past 20 years (baseball and now slowpitch), I can guarantee there is a difference in the distance a ball will be hit by an aluminum bat on a cold day vs. a warm day.  I am in northern Canada so a cold day for ball is ~40°F and a warm day can be 90°F+.  On the cold days, the bats would feel "dead", even a good hit in the sweet spot would send a shock into your hands and the ball would not fly off with the usual speed.  A hit that would have for sure been a home run would turn into a lazy fly.

I agree that it probably isn't the properties of the aluminum though.  The same "dead" feel to a bat also happens when a bat gets slightly dented.  When that happens the bat is consigned to the practice field.  

Could the increase in air pressure within the bat at different temperatures affect the stiffness enough to make this difference?

  

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Probably due to the ball and/or the change in air density. Unlikely to be the bat.

Brian
www.espcomposites.com

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

Get it hot enough and it would be easier for the hitter to drop before he starts running the bases.

Regards,

SNORGY.

RE: Would Heating an Aluminum Baseball Bat Make it hit Better

The colder air will be more dense and the ball will not travel as far, either... just like a bullet in cold air... changes the trajectory a tad...

Dik

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