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Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

(OP)
Was recently watching the Dakar Rally going through sections of the Atacama desert and was wondering, if you designing a road through an area that is classed as the driest desert in the world would you still bother putting stormwater culverts at the low points under the road?  Or just assume that the little bit of rain that falls will pond on the upstream side and eventually evaporate or be absorbed by the soil?

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

How do you know that these are not tunnels for lizards to cross the road without being run over...  As inenvironmentally friendly.

They do have flash floods in deserts...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

(OP)
it is a hypothetical question, the section i was watching was not on roads.

Obviously you would put culverts (or a drift) where you have a large catchment, but what about where the catchment is small?

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

(OP)
I suppose you would you need to take into account the usage of the road and the cost of having it closed for repairs every few years when there is flood damage? and see whether the additional cost of putting in a pipe that would only get wet every 10 years was worth it in the long run?  

Or would you just assume thatglobal warming will have an effect and put them in for 2012 when the aliens arrive?

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Quote:

How do you know that these are not tunnels for lizards to cross the road without being run over...  As inenvironmentally friendly.

I think you'll find that providing for our furred friends is a major consideration here in the UK.

http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/vol10/section4/ha5992.pdf


Just don't mention newts (of the Great Crested variety).

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

In Arizona, they just initially route the roads through the low points (called washes here) and when it rains, you stay out of them. If the road gets busy enough, they raise it and put in drainage.

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

(OP)
When i was a student and was working on a golf course in colorado i rented a car and drove to LA.
 
i remember being airborn a few times flying along some of those back roads, and wondered at the time why they did it like that

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Here in Southern Arizona we have a monsoon season and have to account for that in roadway design.  As Jed mentioned dip crossings are common here until it is warranted to improve it.  We have a rating system based on usage to establish each roadway.  We also have a stupid motorist law that charges the dumbies that enter our flooded washes.

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

I'm sure you must have desert tortoise crossings, no.

Having lived in Southwest Texas, Saudi Arabia and now next to the Sahara, I can assure you that one of THE most common design mistakes is to assume that it does not rain in desert areas. All it takes is one time.

It is equally as common is to assume that the rain in Spain stays mainly on the plains.

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Try driving from Los Angeles to Las Vegas during a heavy rain and watch that desert next to the road turn into huge ponds on both sides.  

Also we have those tunnels for all the protected animals to cross.  How they know how to cross through a tunnel and not over a road is beyond me.  Surprised no one has posted little signs for the critters.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Arizona is now looking at critter overpasses in some areas.  Typically the use of fencing channelizes the critters to the crossings.  These overpasses are bridges with vegetation on them.  We also increase the height of culverts to allow for larger animals to cross.

Typically, our storms produce flash floods and dip crossings are only flooded for short periods of time.  So one can wait for the flooding to end.  

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

gbam: Do the engineers that you work with coming up with critter overpasses take it as more of a joke or take it seriously?  

I remember working on a tunnel that was basically ending up 200' underground and I was joking to the other engineers how an animal would know how to go in there?  Do you want me to put a picture of a bear with forks and knives at the end of the tunnel as well?

To me drainage is all that matters, but some of the animal stuff incorporated seems so overkill.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

if it increases safety, than no joke. If not than it's a waste of money

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

It depends on the engineer.  The cost for the overpasses can be quite high in comparison to a larger culvert.  As cvg states if it reduces accidents with animals it makes sense; but i think more analysis needs to be done to confirm the high costs for the overpasses.

I have heard from biologists that wildlife typically does not cross through culverts showing the need for the overpasses.  I disagree.  I have inspected many culverts and always see tracks in the sand and mud.

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

culverts invariably flow water and that is exactly where most animals will hang out, especially in the desert. In fact, culverts attract animals, overpasses do not unless you put out a salt lick.

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

I find this topic so interesting as I was very close to the Bio department at one of my jobs.  I am starting to think I am going to find some of these critter tunnels and maybe spend a day with a video camera seeing what happens.

Maybe the next time I drive up to Vegas I will attempt this.  I have driven that route from LA a few times where the whole land next to the road was like a pool on both sides.  And I have driven it while it was snowing/icey and it's pretty crazy.  Obviously the roads were completely destroyed after that rain.  Which I think took about 2 years before they really fixed the roads.

Most people still don't understand what I say when the West Coast saw almost 100 year storms recently.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Recent research in my area found that fishers (a weasel species) routinely use culverts to cross under roads.

     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail." - Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Quote:

Recent research in my area found that fishers (a weasel species) routinely use culverts to cross under roads.

But we all know they're weaselly pleased...boom...boom...





And yes, I am available for weddings, funerals and Bar Mitzvahs...

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

For the OPs original question.

Having never designed a storm system in the middle of nowhere, where does all that storm water get diverted to?  I was close to working on a huge project in San Bernadino in a flood zone, mostly flat, but had a small mountain on the property and we could not figure out how to economically drain such a large area when a road is involved.  My partner had worked on some pretty large projects and he wasn't sure how to handle this situation.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com

RE: Storm Dainage on Desert Roads?

Obviously it must be diverted to the edge of nowhere. smile

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