Sealing Shop Drawings in California
Sealing Shop Drawings in California
(OP)
I am looking for some opinions on the requirement for sealing shop drawings.
I work for a company that supplies various architectural components for buildings. We provide placement drawings for our products, much like for example steel joist drawings, which show a product mark #, location, etc.
Taking my lead from the joist industry which does not seal shop drawings, I believe that the shop drawings prepared for our products should not bear an engineers seal either.
They are not prepared under teh direst supervision of an engineer and we have provided sealed calculations.
Any thoughts?
I work for a company that supplies various architectural components for buildings. We provide placement drawings for our products, much like for example steel joist drawings, which show a product mark #, location, etc.
Taking my lead from the joist industry which does not seal shop drawings, I believe that the shop drawings prepared for our products should not bear an engineers seal either.
They are not prepared under teh direst supervision of an engineer and we have provided sealed calculations.
Any thoughts?






RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
It is my contention that placing/location drawings (be it for steel erection, rebar placement, component location, etc.) need not be sealed since they are not part of the contract documents relating to the design of the structure.
That said, I have seen specs that require the sealing of rebar placement drawings, though I can't say how it was resolved. I would not seal them if asked, and I've seen too many placement drawings that would be useless to the first-time user of those drawings.
Whoever seals said drawings must be prepared to take full responsibility for their content, as if they had actually produced them. I review and seal drawings for concrete formwork and shoring systems, as well as temporary structural support for building/structure demolition or modification. This is my position - if I place my seal on them, then I own them.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
I'm not sure about California, but in my home state, shop drawings are often required to be signed/sealed as a function delegated by the Engineer of Record.
Ask the California Board of Professional Engineers.
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
I can tell you having formerly worked in teh steel joist industry that there would never be steel joist placement (shop) drawings issued with an engineers stamp on them.
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
Ron - I understood what kws129's position was, and it's exactly what I was trying to address.
What purpose is the EoR trying to accomplish when he requires a P.E. seal on a placing or location drawing? What responsibility is he/she trying to delegate to another engineer who knows little about the overall design of the structure? That the correct size joist is called out in a matching location on the placing drawing? Or that the correct bar qty & size is correctly shown on the rebar placing drawing? Is not the EoR the person in the best position to confirm this?
I started my career detailing OWSJs. Occasionally we would get this requirment, and more often than not we (the supplier) would refuse. We still supplied the product.
If the EoR produced a set of structural drawings that were clear and concise, and the placing drawings are produced based on those drawings, why the requirement for another P.E. to get involved? What real purpose does it serve, other than to spread around the possible liability to more than just the RoR and supplier?
Unfortunately, I come from a time when the Architect's or Engineer's approval actually meant something. When a mistake in the design professional's notation, if found on an Approved shop drawing, ultimately relieved the supplier of liability.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
Delegated engineering functions have taken on a life of their own in the past 20 or so years. In my state, the EoR is required to provide the design criteria to the delegated engineer, and then review the work. State law requires that the delegated engineer provide signed and sealed drawings/calcs/reports, etc.
If the drawing is showing a location only, then it is informational, not technical. If it is part of a package requiring proof of structural adequacy, then it would get signed and sealed.
.....Specific reliance on another engineer because he has no control nor supervisory responsibilities for any delegated structural work that will be incorporated into HIS design.
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
Ron - I think that we are talking about two completely different things.
(1) There is delegated design - that is when the EoR delegates the design of a specific part of the permanent structure to some other entity. Commonly: OWSJ with special loading; truss beams supporting OWSJ designed for the project; earth retention systems; post-tensioned slabs and beams; and the like. With these items, I would expect them to be designed by a professional engineer and sealed by same.
(2) But what ksw129 was referring to, specifically "I work for a company that supplies various architectural components for buildings. We provide placement drawings for our products, much like for example steel joist drawings, which show a product mark #, location, etc." are drawing that do not specifically require design by a delegated engineer. Why should those kind of drawings require a P.E. seal?
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
Does it say somewhere in the rules that they must also submit calcs or is this up to the EOR? If I do some misc. steel design for a big project for the fabricator, and I sign and seal the drawings of the components, do I also need to submit calculations according to the rules, or is it up to the EOR?
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
dhengr - Amen! And just imagine where things will go once LEED ratings become essential for every major project ...
How many LEED points can be lost for excessive CYA and excessive paperwork? LEED points should be subtracted every time a contractor has to submit an RFI to the design team.
Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
Guilty...the one from Florida.
Calc submittal is up to the EoR or the building department...usually one or the other will require.
dhengr...considering the state of litigation...you are entirely correct!!
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California
As the EOR and the specialty engineer at times, it seems hit or miss what is required, we usually are prepared to submit calcs as the specialty engineer. But thanks for the clarification, I did not think that was spelled out in the rules.
RE: Sealing Shop Drawings in California