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High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?
2

High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

(OP)
I know for a fact that for conventional industrial building and low-rise 2/3 story buildings, a bachelor degree + motivation to learn/continuing education might suffice. However, I want to have a hand in larger and high-profile projects. I've heard ppl saying that a Master is almost a must to handle these kinds of buildings/structures along with architects.

I am close to finishing my undergrad with a likely offer to work on mostly industrial/conventional designs. However, I was wondering if a master is truly worth it in the long run in lieu of continuing education on/off the job.

Any tips and suggestions are greatly welcomed

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

The engineering industry is going more and more to the Master's Degree being the entry level degree to begin your career.  I'm not sure I agree with this, but it's being pushed from several directions, especially requiring a masters to apply for a PE.
If you have the time and resources, it's probably worth it.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I think this trend is limited to the structural field, so I'm going to abstain from commenting, but I did have one question for the original poster:

What is "ppl" ??

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

2
goober, here is essential reading for dealing with gen y - and yes, ppl is on the list...
http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I think the requirement varies by company. One of the reasons I took my current job was that they didn't require a graduate degree. However, I quickly noticed that almost all the principals have one. I worked a few years and then got mine. I think this progression has some great benefits: I started making money and getting raises earlier, my employer helped pay for grad school and I had a better frame of reference for my graduate studies.

I found it usually takes a lot of time on the job/experience to get the higher profile assignments. I think you'll have time to better evaluate your further education needs while you're getting the experience. I finished my graduate degree just before I sat for the PE. I think the timing helped tremendously as my brain was still operating in study/exam mode.

Good luck with your decision.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I don't know about the masters degree, but it would be nice to trust such work to one who writes in complete words and sentences.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

cvg, thanks for the link -- OMG!  I don't want to learn all those things.

My post was a tad facetious -- I wanted to start the thought for the OP (StructIntern) of what Tick so eloquently put.  Looking for career advice?  Here's some more:

While it may broaden the living experience for older folks like me to learn text-message shorthand, it will do nothing but spell disaster in the professional world.  It's tough to change from years of text-typing, but it's still a must.  I consider it a bit amusing, myself -- but most of my peers consider it disrespectful, some highly so.

Perhaps when Gen Y makes it to our age, they'll begin to convert the workforce to a new mode of communication -- if the next generation doesn't come up with an even more convenient way.

Meantime, proper grammar is the rule.

Good on y'all!  (Including StructIntern)

Goober Dave

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

(OP)
Ha, good point. I do proofread and carefully phrase all my emails at work, no matter big or small. Unlike text messages, they can be sent in a controlled manner: I can take 5-10 minutes (more than enough) to phrase and proofread the content.

If I spend 10 minutes to type and proofread my posts on a forum after work at home, that would drive me nuts. But anyway, grammar and diction rule. I can't contest that.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

tiz all about ppl aint it pipe

peace
Fe

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

it takes an extra 10 minutes to type the full word? not on a full size keyboard, only on your droid

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

Jed, I've heard that about "them" making a Master's the new requirement for the PE.  I'm eligible to sit for mine this April, but I won't until Fall 2011.  I do not have a Master's degree, should I be worried?

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I doubt it.  There will be tremendous political pressure resisting such a drastic change. See:
https://www.ncees.org/About_NCEES/Engineering_education_initiative.php
for the push behind this initiative. It's very tough reading with a slew of links that say nothing. It's now been watered down to a Bachelors plus 30.  Once again, it seems like there's a lot of inertia resisting this, but it might happen someday.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

The Bachelor + 30 is pretty much the same thing as a Master's degree, especially since you can get a Master's of Engineering and not have to worry about a thesis.  I don't want to derail the thread too much on this topic, but I'd be curious as to why they are pushing for Master's degrees for PE licensure.  Sounds to me like another way for universities to get more tuition.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

(OP)
Because in a typical civil degree, you only get to specialize in your last year. So practically and academically speaking, students only receive one year or less of practice-based professional training.

Let alone the responsibilities of a structural engineer

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

That's why I went two years further...  All structural.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

To answer the original question:  Yes, a master's degree is pretty much mandatory if you want to work on high-rise building structures.  Almost all of the firms that specialize in high-rise building structures require a master's degree for entry level positions.  Just visit the website employment page of a few of them and you'll see what I mean. The same will be true for firms that work on long-span bridge structures.

In general, a lot of structural firms value the master's degree.  You'll see a good bit of them state that a master's degree is "preferred" in their job advertisements, even if they primarily work on low-rise and mid-rise structures.

If you have the opportunity right now, I would highly recommend going for the master's degree.  JedClampett has already touched on the push for high education requirements. I'll also argue that getting the master's degree with a structural emphasis greatly hones your technical background and will leave you with a greater confidence as you practice throughout the rest of your career, whether your work on high-rise buildings or not.  

If you have a job offer upon completion of your bachelor's degree, then you may want to consider pursuing the master's degree as you work part-time.  Your employer may be receptive to you working 25-30 hours a week while you take graduate classes.  I did it this way and was able to finish my degree in 2-1/2 years.  I enjoyed getting the degree in this manner because I was able continue my technical background while gaining a lot of real-world experience.  I thought that work gave me a better context of what to look for in each course and how to choose independent research topics.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

Just to add my 2 cents, even though I am mechanical, I'd wait. I did my Masters straight after finishing my Bachelors. If I had my time again, I think I would have been better to work out in the real world for 3 or 4 years before going back to school. I feel that then I would have pursued a thesis and courses more targeted to what I wanted to do.

Even though you might be deadset on working on highrises now, a few years doing lowrise or industrial structures may change your mind (or harden your resove).  

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I guess it is more about your place of employment. If you want to work in a US, British or Australian city then you will need to scope out how much demand there is in the city you wish to work and which companies specialize in that field.

The very high budget projects are more often then going to be located in China, Dubai, Abu Dubai, South East Asia and Doha. The with the majority of the structural design for these projects will come from offices in the US, China, Hong Kong, India and Dubai.

Best if luck.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

If you want to be a serious structural engineer and you attended an ABET-accredited undergrad program then yes, you need a Masters degree. You just don't spend enough time on structures coursework in an ABET degree to get up to snuff on complex structures.

Apologies, I went to university in South Africa where we didn't have to do "core curriculum" in the humanities and I have twice as many engineering credits as ABET requires from my undergrad alone.  

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

"core" is somewhat a misnomer - why would social and cultural anthropology or Colorado State History ever be considered "core" to my rounded development as an engineer? I am glad that I spent 10 years paying off my college loans to take those classes. Much cheaper than buying the book on Amazon and reading in my spare time. Francisca, you were lucky to be in SA, unfortunately the registration boards in the US are almost as backwards as the deans of most american colleges...  

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I agree with Francesca in that if you're serious and want to get involved in some major structural work, a MS is mandatory for you and most likely by the firm you want to work for.

I am a big fan of let the workplace or market decide what the demand on education is.  The companies are taking the risk, not the engineering societies.  Risk is mitigated strongly by knowledge - the more you know the better you can minimize risky areas.  Larger firms that work on major projects tend to hire MS candidates.  Smaller firms that do routine municipality work can make do (and very well) with BSCE employees.  So if you, as a business owner, can get by with the BSCE coursework for your employees, then you shouldn't be subject to hiring more expensive engineers.  Of course there are exceptions in that some small firms are involoved in specialty work that requires MS or PHD.

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

For what its worth, the owners of my companies go as follow:
BS from a small college
BS from an average state university (they did buildings up to 30 stories in high wind areas)
Self employed with a BS from an average state university
Retired PHD professors, though non-engineers

All well-off businessman, except for that self-employed guy.

One of my go-to mentors from a previous company had a BS and an MBA, but he said the key in his career was a several year stint with a really good mentor.

I liked school and was a good student, but I am a firm believer in on the job training for structural engineers being they key to this profession. A Masters certainly won't hurt you, but don't be too disappointed if it is not the rocket ship for your career you may have hoped. I would work first if you can find a good job, and then decide what to do after that. You may not want to even do structural engineering.

I know plenty of young engineers who have recently gone to grad school basically because the job market was so bad...

Good luck!
 

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

Getting a Masters straight out of your BS is far less worthwhile than getting a Masters after a few years of experience.  You dont know what is and isn't important after your BS.  You can always go back later on, and the work experience makes it more likely for you to get it fully funded.  

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

IF you can get work experience. I came out of my BS in May of 09' and no one was even talking to undergraduate engineers, much less offering them positions (be it short term internship or full time positions). I had to basically go to work for free for a company to develop myself professionally so that I could remain competitive with engineers with years of experience who had been let go from their old firms.

If your coming out of your undergrad right the most important advice I could give you would be this: Make sure you can get a job after you graduate from your Master's program. You don't need to be a fortune teller but just ask a few of the Master's candidates who are graduating soon about their prospects and their classmates  prospects as well. The answer you get will be telling about your own prospects after graduation.

There's nothing worse than spending all that money to get a Master's degree and then flipping burgers because thats the only job available. I've been fortunate enough to avoid that fate but several of my classmates from my Masters program have not (and these are not dumb/unmotivated people either).  

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I have a highrise building under my belt (30 stories, if that qualifies as highrise) and I only have a BS.  I'm currently in a grad program (I'm one of only a couple in the office without a MS), but I would have been given the project whether I was in the grad program or not. We also work on a lot of pretty prestigious projects with world-class architects.  It's very rewarding (personally more than financially),

One thing I would say is that a MS is much more valuable to you after you have a couple years of experience.  At that point you'll have a better idea of what's important, what you really need to pay attention to and what's just not worth staying up until 2 am to finish.  

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

I agree with a2mfk. Nothing prepares you completely to become a structural engineer. Only real-life experience working on projects will make you a better engineer. You also need a good mentor who is willing to take the time. Structural engineering is as much an ART as it is a SCIENCE. You can learn all the SCIENCE in school, but unless you know the ART of structural engineering, you will never become a great structural engineer.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

Quote:

I have a highrise building under my belt (30 stories, if that qualifies as highrise) and I only have a BS.

Did you guys do a dynamic analysis for the lateral design?

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

At least one PhD MINIMUM.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

My 2cents is even if you decide you need the MS, get some experience under the belt first. Get the EIT done if you haven't already. I wish I waited, I think of things I would like to explore in greater detail, and my thesis would be FAR more applicable to real world engineering.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

It depends on your definition of "need".

You NEED it to be accepted by a company to do the work, but you really do not "need" it to do the design.

MOST of the design is the same as for a low rise. You have your gravity systems, vibration, deflection and serviceability. The only difference in high rise is that you also start getting things like built up shapes, mode shapes, wind tunnel analysis and other more complicated areas that would be easier to understand if you have a background in Dynamics (which many undergrad study programs do not include).

High rise concrete also includes things such as creep shortening and non-linear analysis (say tension fracturing of the concrete when bent in one direction under seismic load is different than in the other direction, so your mode shape is non-linear with a non-continuous point at 0).

So it is recommended that you get a Masters, but it is not truly needed.

Now, as for net acronyms. As for a Gen-X'er it is not that hard to understand terms such as "PPL" "OMG" "THX" "L8R" and others. These are just friendly colloquialisms that save time in a texting world.

Are they appropriate for professional discourse? No. No more than "like" was and is for my own generation (although that one is still living strong in Gen-Y).

Why so many are focusing on something that has absolutely nothing to do with the OT is beyond me.

Ironic that people are grousing about internet shorthand on an internet BBS. ;)

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

abusementpark-
We did not do a dynamic analysis for the lateral design for strength.  We did have a wind-tunnel study and provided the wind-tunnel guys with frequencies/periods, mode-shapes, mass distributions, mass moments of inertia, etc. for him to give us accelerations due to wind at the highest occupied floor of the building.  

We did some checks (for comparison) to see how close some spreadsheets we have are, and it was reasonably close.

I will say that our lateral system is minimally stressed (about 0.5 max at the base columns) and our drift is H/800 for a 50 year wind, and we were just squeaking by on accelerations.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

@PA:
Was it a really slender building? I am surprised accelerations were controlling on a 30 story building.

RE: High-rise and bridge projects - Master degree a must?

It wasn't terribly slender, but it was steel so it got a lower damping ratio than it would have if it were concrete (.02 compared to .03 for concrete - typical values).

Also the steel framed structure is lighter than concrete.

It was a torsional mode that was controlling the frequency and accelerations.  

I guess to be fair I should qualify that the acceleration increased radially as you for out toward the corners of the building because of the torsional nature and there were small portions of each corner that were close, but the majority of the upper floor was ok.

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