The Corporate Gears to fight
The Corporate Gears to fight
(OP)
Question for the masses:
Some background: I have 4 years of expierience in the utility industry since graduting from college with an EE degree, Power emphasis. My first year I worked in our company's substation department, doing system protection, subtation control design, etc. After a year I transferred to another location as a distribution engineer, doing pretty much anything distribution: Substations, system protection, circuit design, underground, overhead, Distribution SCADA, etc. You name it, it gets thrown on my desk.
I have been working pretty hard, doing well, getting great reviews at my performance evals from my boss, being told I'm doing above and beyond the level of work the company expects for an engineer at my level. (I'm not tooting my horn, just telling you what my boss is saying). I'm trying to take on large projects, extra duties as needed, etc. But asking for a promotion from Eng. II to Eng. III or an above-average raise (better than 3%) gets met with "ah, eh well HR won't allow that" type of crap. The "HR won't allow it" has been the prevailing attitude since I started with pretty much anything. So, I ask HR about it, they say "Well, Management has to come to us with promotions and raises and we pretty much just make sure everything is legal, we aren't slowing things down"
Now the question: How do you fight the corporate gears like that? Do you fight it, put up with it, or find another company to work for? My wages are literally average or slightly below, my benefits are maybe average for the industry, and vacation/holidays is also around average. Retirement is decent, but average again.
People talk the economy, but in our geographic area, the economy is not slowing down one bit, especially for the utility sector. Even the company throws "the economy" at us but has posted record earnings the past two years.
SO, in the seasoned opinions of those on this board, whats next?
Some background: I have 4 years of expierience in the utility industry since graduting from college with an EE degree, Power emphasis. My first year I worked in our company's substation department, doing system protection, subtation control design, etc. After a year I transferred to another location as a distribution engineer, doing pretty much anything distribution: Substations, system protection, circuit design, underground, overhead, Distribution SCADA, etc. You name it, it gets thrown on my desk.
I have been working pretty hard, doing well, getting great reviews at my performance evals from my boss, being told I'm doing above and beyond the level of work the company expects for an engineer at my level. (I'm not tooting my horn, just telling you what my boss is saying). I'm trying to take on large projects, extra duties as needed, etc. But asking for a promotion from Eng. II to Eng. III or an above-average raise (better than 3%) gets met with "ah, eh well HR won't allow that" type of crap. The "HR won't allow it" has been the prevailing attitude since I started with pretty much anything. So, I ask HR about it, they say "Well, Management has to come to us with promotions and raises and we pretty much just make sure everything is legal, we aren't slowing things down"
Now the question: How do you fight the corporate gears like that? Do you fight it, put up with it, or find another company to work for? My wages are literally average or slightly below, my benefits are maybe average for the industry, and vacation/holidays is also around average. Retirement is decent, but average again.
People talk the economy, but in our geographic area, the economy is not slowing down one bit, especially for the utility sector. Even the company throws "the economy" at us but has posted record earnings the past two years.
SO, in the seasoned opinions of those on this board, whats next?





RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
FIRST, get the other job. In writing.
THEN, give notice.
DO NOT give a reason. "I quit, effective <date>." That's it.
DO NOT submit to an 'exit interview'. If coerced, say nothing.
DO NOT accept a counteroffer, not even a big one. They will screw you later.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
not that I necessarily recommend this approach, but on an occasion when I felt I was holding most of the good cards, I got a counteroffer then used it to negotiate a higher offer with the new employer before I switched. They didn't have hard feelings about it, and I certainly liked the new offer better than the old one.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Not once, but three time in my career I have been given raises or promotions that were beyond the established HR or budgetary boundaries. Bosses thought I was valuable enough to fight for. It does happen on occasion.
On the flip side, one boss was told to dial back the ratings on my review, being told from HR that "no one deserves that high a rating".
Don't get me wrong, I've had bad reviews and bad jobs and bad bosses and even questionable performance at times since. I think I was just lucky early on to be both good enough and to have bosses that were brave enough.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
You said you work in the utility industry, do you mean you work directly for a utility or for a consultant?
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
However, like all rules of thumb there are exceptions, trouble is it can be difficult to know if you're one of them. At one point early in my career I got told similar to you by my director. Then out of the blue, outside of the usual 'pay raise' season I got pulled into the managing directors office and told I was getting a 19% pay raise.
I know of people that threatened to leave, and got paid handsomely to stay, but there are plenty of stories of that tactic going wrong too.
So, you might get surprised, but I'd start looking for alternative employment just in case.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
After a few years in my first job after graduation, I was in a similar situation as you. My performance reviews were excellent, I had never been disciplined, I was working above and beyond, but still I was underpaid. I did some research to confirm that I was underpaid for my level of experience, responsibility and geographical area. Then I scheduled a time to speak with my boss (BTW, if you want to discuss pay, schedule an appointment. It's not a good idea to make someone feel ambushed). I presented my case that I was worth a pay raise and what I was asking was not out of line compared to other companies. I did not give an ultimatum, though personally I was resigned to looking for another job if it did not go well. I ended up with a 15% raise!
The fact is, you know that your boss is not hindered by HR. You confirmed this. He is happy to pay you at your current salary as long as you are willing to accept it. Let him know that you are not satisfied and feel you are undervalued. Don't be whiny or moody, just be professional. Use the phrase, "fair and reasonable" to describe your requested pay raise. If you don't get the response you want, look around to see what other jobs are available and if you are worth more to another company. I agree with the advice above about not accepting a counter offer if/when you annouce your resignation. Once you decide to take another job, don't waiver.
Good luck!
How to Find, Get and Keep an Engineering Job
http://www.EngineeringGuideBook.com
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
'Tis a sad fact. You hired on with skillset "A". since then you've added "B" and "C" while only receiving incremental raises.
"If they went out and hired somebody with A, B, and C skills off the street, they'd likely pay him MORE than you.
I've faced this dilemma as a manager of technical personnel for decades. I tried fighting it in the corporate HQ. I tried building logical cases for pay raises based on equitable measures of skill. I got shot down a lot.
Nobody said it was gonna be fair...
My sympathies to you.
old field guy
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
I work directly for an electric and natural gas utility company. Our holding company is a fortune 500 company. As a utility, we have nearly a million customers and very large geographic area. The area I'm in charge of the distribution system (at least the engineering) is probably 300 miles x 300 miles. There is another engineer that graduated from college at the same time I did and has also been with the company 4 yrs that shares the duties for that territory. Lots of small towns, some larger towns in there too.
I'll be sitting for my PE in April, and I know for a fact I won't even get a Congrats for passing that test.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
>> So, I ask HR about it,...<<
That was a mistake.
One, HR is _never_ going to give you a straight answer.
Engineers generally respond to a direct question with absolute truth.
HR weenies don't think that way. They live and die by corporate politics, and are _always_ playing that game.
Two, you are now marked as a malcontent. No matter how politely you may have phrased it, you are on the troublemaker list to stay.
Or rather, to go.
Accelerate your job search.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Average performance deserves average compensation; below average performance deserves below average compensation; above average performance deserves above average compensation.
If your supervisor / boss is saying your performance is above average, then that comes at a cost on the payroll. It's that simple. So, if you have a discrepancy between "what is said" and "what is paid", and you have the baseline to compare to, I would be inclined to *ask* your supervisor / boss to see if it can be brought into alignment.
If not - for whatever reason - take care of yourself and exit as graciously as you can when the time comes.
I recently faced the problem from the other end. I had certain expectations of an employee / subordinate. For example, I would give an assignment on Wednesday, expecting results the following Monday, with the results to take the form of a deliverable capturing points {x, y, z} with an error / rework allowance of say 5%. This employee would produce everything and present it to me that Friday morning, completely addressing {x, y and z} plus a whole bunch of other stuff from {a-w} with a rework level of 0%. So, my evaluation was full of "exceeds expectations". However, I was told by management and HR to reduce the rankings in order to justify paying lower salary adjustments. In anticipation of this outcome, I "accidentally" gave the employee a signed copy of the evaluation before others could intercept it and tailor it to their own purpose. Their rationale was that my expectations were too low and that I did not know how to critically evaluate (be critical enough of) an engineer's performance. My rebuttal was that I didn't know how to function in HR or as an MBA, but I knew how to do and evaluate engineering, so as long as they were going to task me with the evaluation of same, then it was my judgement that would be documented, not theirs.
The employee / subordinate in this instance was subsequently compensated at a level that was well above "average", exactly and precisely as it should have been. Both management and HR relented and accepted that high performance begets high compensation, and the alternative is attrition.
I can't help but think that most employers probably see it the same way. In the end, it probably all comes down to your approach. Politeness and impartiality will probably serve you well, and if they are not enough, then at least your conscience is not muddied if you elect to move on.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
'told I'm doing above and beyond the level of work the company expects for an engineer at my level.'
and
'wages are literally average or slightly below, my benefits are maybe average for the industry, and vacation/holidays is also around average. Retirement is decent, but average again.'
In other words, the company doesn't pay particularly well, and doesn't expect much from their employees. Sounds like a company determined to stick to the road to average, they want mediocrity, and reward employees accordingly. Probably people who aim high leave the firm for greener pastures.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
I apologize if this sounds like a rant. It sortof is, but I assume from the posts I've seen on this thread already that many of you have ran into this problem on both sides of the coin, as manager and managed.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
EXACTLY. What is the point of a "midpoint" if it's not the "midpoint"
SOME get above Midpoint, like a Senior Engineer with 25 + Yrs might get above his/her midpoint. But it's rare.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
I get to start the review process in the next few days, wonder if I'll still be below the minimum pay for my 'category'?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Some people will tell you utilities are a more stable secure work place-if you believe that I have a nice bridge up by Tacoma i can let you have cheap.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
move forward and do not look back. change is good, very good!!! encourage yourself to explore other pastures to graze in. crab-grass and water starved pastures are definitely not that palatable.
good luck!
-pmover
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
In a large organization everyone is just a cog in the machine. If you are lucky you will get to work on an important project and do a good job which will be recognized by your boss and other managers. This can lead to better than average raises. Then you will reach a point where you are really well paid and the company is not doing well and some manager who has been there for 2 months is looking to cut costs.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
If I read the post correctly, you have four years of experience. I would not expect any engineer with that amount of experience to be an Engineer III. There should be plenty of room in the salary band to get a good raise as an Engineer II.
The trick is navigating the office politics on how to achieve a good raise if it's even possible at your present company. For the most part I would agree with what you heard from the HR folks. They basically just do what they are told assuming it doesn't specifically violate the law or a specific written company SOP. If someone in your management chain wants you to get a good raise they could make it happen.
So, now on to the next step as you asked.
1. Polish your resume and start job hunting while you maintain a good work ethic at your current job.
2. Ask your immediate supervisor what specific tasks or goals you must meet during your current performance period to warrant a raise of X% during the next review cycle.
3. Be prepared to change jobs. ( I tried #2 once and after meeting all the requirements still got the standard 3%) :)
Good luck.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
At my place they are related to 'Radford Salary Survey' http://www.radford.com/ definitions.
However' they'll play fast and loose, I was bumped up to an Eng IV when I went direct here so that my manager could get me the pay he wanted.
However, then last year on my pay raise notification I think my manager printed more than he was meant to and it showed the salary range for Eng 4 and I was below minimum. However, honestly for what I do, I figure I make OK money (though I wouldn't turn down a raise
So anyway, I'd only worry about your companies definition of Engineering Grades, and don't go trying to compare them to other companies.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Manager - Is likely reviewing the group as a whole to see where everyone's salary/service range is and has to compare that with the budget he's give by higher management. Within that constraint the manager has to make sure he keeps everyone happy too. No matter how much you like to think your compensation is private others have ways to find out. So it may be that the manager is weakly blaming HR as a way to abruptly end your discussion. It also may very well be that no one went to bat for him or others during his time and so he sees little motivation or reward in it for him. Remember he likely has to go to higher management on increases above a certain percentage.
HR - Is more than likely speaking the truth. I have never known the HR department in an engineering enviroment to do anything else but make recommendations regarding the legality or business sense of promotions, firings, layoffs, compensations, hires etc. It's always the management, be they engineers or not.
I would recommend talking to your boss more in-depth if he allows. Show him why its good for him to pursue this matter and reward you. Often times it may come down to how much savings has your work resulted in either for reduced design time or reduced construction costs (substations etc). If you can support savings you can turn that into a reward fairly easily I think.
Good luck.
Regards,
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RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
I once worked somewhere that had a review of pay grades by a HR consulting firm to make all the acquisitions the same. The end result was that the grades were lowered and I was stuck at %110. They did not want to promote me or anyone to the higher grade so I was stuck. The end result was that an engineering department of 15+ went down to 2.
HR never likes to give a complete answer.
Don't expect anything from the PE unless it is needed for the job or ads value to the employer.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
They like your boss more, because he keeps you working, cheap.
That clearly does not please you.
So, why the HELL are you STILL there?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Oh dear.
Yes, I suppose this might be possible in a utopian world...
The problem is that such employees are a problem, assuming the possibility of vital employees is admitted, which it often isn't.
Companies don't like to have employees that are vital.
They might be run over by trucks at inconvenient moments.
Employees who are vital tend to want to be paid as such, if they ever discover their status....
HR are supposed to have succession planning in place which generally is directed toward to replacing anticipated losses such as through retirement, but they generally have no way to replace immediately any one who has a vital role, sorry, who has become a vital employee, I should not confuse "vital role" with "vital employee".
The probability is that most of the candidates interviewed for any position will fall short in some way or another.
The problem with key skills posts is always how to fill them, so much so that if a business depends on having key employees it probably won't survive. So companies have to find ways to operate efficiently with "average" employees.
So every job specification for recruitment is often a wish list for an ideal candidate and a bench mark against which to validate the candidates.
It isn't too far a stretch to suggest that the "ideal" employee would be treated with suspicion and caution; considered as "overqualified", perhaps and asked extensively why he wants this job and if he is there for the long run (the corollary of an ideal employee is that they can find other jobs equally easily....)
The risk of employing such candidates is that they are hard to replace. A business that comes to depend on such employees i.e. to require the extra ability rather than to accommodate the average, becomes vulnerable in the event the "vital employee" dies, or gets to realise how valuable (s)he is and either wants more money or quits for a better job.
Hence, many companies, and especially HR, have declared that there is no such animal as an irreplaceable employee.
Which is tantamount to saying there is no such thing as a "vital" employee though there may well be vital positions.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
So nobody will hire you? Or you don't want to move? Or you just aren't looking? Pretty vague answer there.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
They pay what the job is worth not what the employee is worth.
Being better than the average expectation is personally satisfying but rarely appropriately rewarded. Sure, managers value getting more than they expected and may go some way to trying to keep the employee happy but in thee end they will not pay what the employee is worth.
This is one reason why the best paid engineers are often those who regularly trade jobs, who regularly test their market value.
Of course, when a "valued" (undervalued) employee leaves a job management forget what the expectations for the post were and try and recruit to replace the skill level they lost and end up having to pay way more than they paid the departing employee....
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Good luck,
Latexman
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
The sample is not large enough to be statistically significant either way, really.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Location: I hate to jump and move to a location that sucks
Opportunity: Pretty tough out there right now, and don't want to repeat my current situation. Maybe this is more of a fear problem than anything
Timing: Wife is a school teacher, can't ditch her contract mid-year very easily.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
We are looking for a maintenance engineer where I work and the few resumes we recieved were very poor, so poor to the point where we might not interview any of them. One was in the financial industry and it was obvious he was just sending resumes to anything listed in the hopes of getting an interview. You will stand out in the crowd if you make the effort to send a good resume that you spent some time on. Based on what I have seen over the last 5-6 years of interviewing candidates, the vast majority of the resumes are so poor that a well thought out resume immediately stands out in the crowd.
You can always move to the new job and your wife follows once her school year is over. I would not move to a new location with the family until I had spent some time there to make sure the job is worth moving the family for.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Eventually, when enough people do this, it causes a shift in the company strategy on salaries. I quit at my last job because I was underpaid relative to the cost of living. The company realized that it had a lot of people under 30, and people under 30 will accept unfair salaries in a expensive city because that city has a good nightlife.
Many of us left in succession. The result was a 15% pay raise across the board for the people that were still there. Engineers as professionals are vastly underpaid compared with our counterparts in medicine and law. It hurt to both miss the 15% raise and stay in a city that was very enjoyable to me, but I have satisfaction in knowing that my quitting helped the people who stayed to get better pay. They only stayed because they were restricted and could not move away to a better paying job like I did.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
I'm changing companies (actually position also) in a month, mostly for money. Was going to ask for a counteroffer, but decided it wasn't worth the hastle. Once I got that job offer in hand, all the things about the current job I'd been trying to ignore started bubbling up, and all the uncertainies about the new position started to look exciting.
I could follow the example of other people I know and come back to this company in the future, with increased pay and respect just for being somewhere else a few years. Crazy how that works.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Glad to hear I'm not alone. I work with others that feel the same way I do, but you never know if thats just "misery loves company" or if it's the way things our.
As young engineers at our company none of us see much growth opportunity as engineers, so either our attitudes are wrong or there really isn't much but a dead-end. management folks will tell you there is plenty of growth opportunity, but they all mean management. The only people who respect your engineer prowess are other engineers. Management constantly undermines and pushes at you from above and the labor force contstantly pounds at you from the bottom, or from above also I guess as most of them are paid more than the engineers too.
Ok, that was a whiny rant.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Same happened at my first company. 10 of 20 in the engineering dept left within the space of 4 months as the market was quite good at the time. Five of us left on the same day. I know several of us cited pay as a reason for leaving during exit interviews. Those that remained were rewarded with significant pay raises next annual review.
I don't see the problem in doing exit interviews as long as you are professional and don't burn any bridges. This company listened and made adjustments, not just in pay, but in other areas. I still have friends working there more than 10 years later.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Management habitually uses the binomial distribution as the reason most people do not get better pay. They say they are immune to playing favorites but they aren't. They have biases and those are exercised daily.
I've seen engineers mess up royally but still get moved along with the rest of us. I've overheard other engineers implore management to remove said royal mess up from a project and replace him with someone interested in doing it. They were turned down. When two senior engineers implore a manager to remove a royal mess up and it doesn't happen, you know a bias is at work.
I've had managers younger and older than me steal my ideas and represent my hard earned knowledge as their own. Management knew but saw fit to leave things as they were.
Companies I've worked for have complained a lot about people leaving because it costs a lot to recruit, get an employee up to speed, and replace experienced people. Yet they create environments that encourage people to leave, in my humble opinion.
Someone recently told me that if you begin your career with a medium pay company and stay there too long, it will be hard to elevate your pay despite moving up the food chain.
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
Thanks
ysm
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
+35% into a really good fun job
-10%+a car +round the world relocation (ripped off, in retrospect)
+30%
+20% (back to the previous job, ie a 50% pay hike after an 18 month absence).
So, given that annual raises of 5% or so are probably a reasonable long term average, jumping ship seems to be worth 6 years of progress inside a company.
On the other hand, if you hang around for long enough in a large organisation you may be able to maneuver youself into a job that ticks most boxes. Also that 18 month break has cost me 5 weeks of long service leave and screwed up my pension somewhat (offset by the higher pay I'm on, obviously). Relocating is a fairly expensive and unpleasant business, I'd try and factor that into any move.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The Corporate Gears to fight