How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
(OP)
I did some destructive testing on a building and found some non-conforming construction. There were no weep holes or base flashing at the bottom of a brick veneer exterior wall. The California Building Code (based on UBC) clearly states that weep holes and base flashing are to be installed at the first course of masonry above grade. The seller's expert didn't catch it although they were looking at the same opening I was. All I know about the other consultant is that he graduated from Dominican in San Rafael, CA, a liberal arts school. I have friends who went to Dominican, but they have degrees in family therapy, nursing and ballet, not engineering or architecture since the school has no curriculum for those degrees.
The seller's consultant threw a hissy fit about the flashing issue with my boss on a conference call when I was not present. My boss caved during a conference call, then called to try to convince me to change my report and say that it is acceptable construction. I said as a licensed architect, could not ethically say something that is in direct violation of the building code is OK without a written variance from the building official having jurisdiction.
I am to meet all the parties at the site on Monday morning. My boss said that when I see what they are talking about, I will change my mind and kind of implied my continued employment was at stake. He said he wants the purchaser to buy the building so that the firm gets the remediation work where he can recoup some lost fee. I told him it was not my mind that needed changing. They need to run it by the building official. My quandary is that I am reluctant to openly challenge my boss in front of the other consultant and his Client, the mayor of the city that owns the building. I'm just not sure what more I can say, except ask the other consultant if he could do a lovely pirouette for me.
The seller's consultant threw a hissy fit about the flashing issue with my boss on a conference call when I was not present. My boss caved during a conference call, then called to try to convince me to change my report and say that it is acceptable construction. I said as a licensed architect, could not ethically say something that is in direct violation of the building code is OK without a written variance from the building official having jurisdiction.
I am to meet all the parties at the site on Monday morning. My boss said that when I see what they are talking about, I will change my mind and kind of implied my continued employment was at stake. He said he wants the purchaser to buy the building so that the firm gets the remediation work where he can recoup some lost fee. I told him it was not my mind that needed changing. They need to run it by the building official. My quandary is that I am reluctant to openly challenge my boss in front of the other consultant and his Client, the mayor of the city that owns the building. I'm just not sure what more I can say, except ask the other consultant if he could do a lovely pirouette for me.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump





RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Good luck.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
All you have to do is get your own structural wizards to propose something similar, but more ambitious, to hold up the entire wall while the base course is removed and replaced with what should have been there in the first place.
... as part of the remediation, of course. Including labor for you to supervise, at a respectful distance.
Your covering memo will need to quote in full the appropriate sections of the Code, of course.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
xnuke
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RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Looking at this from a different perspective, if I wanted to make an over-riding call on one of my employees reports (which would never happen unless in the extreme). I would rewrite the report, and sign the report myself. It is after all my business and my name that runs on the business, your boss should be willing to do the same, while it does compromise you ethically, you can cover this by a email to your boss stating the facts. Then all you have to do is decide if it is worth working for this prick.
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
I assume this was a Property Condition Assessment for the real estate transaction. If done in accordance with ASTM E2018, the other consultant doesn't meet the qualifications if your understanding of his qualifications is correct. Further, the city has liability for selling a building with known code and construction defects. Point out to your client that if he sells the building in 5 years, someone else will find these defects and he'll be responsible to repair or negotiate a price reduction. This is a liability shift that your client shouldn't bear without adequate compensation (such as a reduction in the selling price to effect the repairs).
I get the impression that perhaps your boss is not a licensed engineer or architect. While you are not required to be an advocate for your client, you are required to protect your client from the expense of a repair that they should not have to bear. Your boss wants to benefit from that expense in the remediation. That's unethical, and for you illegal.
I agree with hokie66....do it, do it professionally and with all your ducks in a row, explaining carefully to all concerned that it is necessary and legally required. You don't have to blindside your boss, but you do need to make it clear to him what you can or cannot do as a licensed professional.
Good luck. Let us know what happens.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
And it isn't just that your boss is wrong but that he has gone on record (?) as saying a code violation is OK. Verbally, anyway but he can retract this saying that now he has taken advice, he has been made aware of some other issues. You may need to feed him these lines and about how he isn't serving the clients best interests by not being through.
He needs to understand that part of your job is protecting his a*** and that you need his co-operation to do that.
But as you say, the problem is how to handle it.
Objectives:
- you will not be party to endorsing a code violation
- you want to keep your job
- You need to protect your boss from himself (this goes to the previous point)
- The client must accept that there is a code violation and that something must be done - Rowingengineer and others have made good suggestions, but perhaps you need to address the issue of who should pay and suggest that the original violator may need to make good?
- you need to preserve your professional integrity
OK, this isn't about code but people and psychology.We can draw on several sources for inspiration including "yes Minister" (the "Brave decision" gambit) and "Lateral Thinking" by Edward De Bono (set out your objectives and structure the solution to meet them).
The boss is backing the sellers specialist rather than his own. He needs to see this and that it isn't in his best interests.
He is motivated by money.
So instead of him looking at the pot of gold he thinks he stands to win by ignoring the code violation, he need to see the even bigger pot of gold he might have to shell out if this ends in litigation further down the line - a suit brought by anyone who sees this as a way to place blame with your boss rather than the client or the original contractor.
This is where an application of the "how to get the decision you want" principle (as explained by Sir Humphrey Appleby in "Yes Minister") is called for.
(Google "Brave decision yes minister").
You don't challenge the boss's decision, you call it a brave decision. (Choose suitable words)
But you will need to point out that tehre is no way your report can overlook the code violation - but, as RowEng suggests, he should write the letter, but that he should be careful to limit his liability as this could be seen as a waiver(?) indemnifying the client against any subsequent damages. This is, in effect, what they are asking for; you or your boss to take liability and protect them from liability.
Put that way it might give him pause for thought.
So the trick is to suggest to you boss that this is a brave or courageous decision in the light of possible future litigation by anyone down the line.
A good idea at this point might be to ask him if he has consulted his legal advisor on his exposure if this goes pear shaped at some future date and if the lawyer has suggested any terms that need to be included to avoid having to shell out cash in future.
It is tempting to want undermine the Dom Grads position; some asides about how you hadn't realised what good professionals liberal arts colleges produce.... but a better way is to suggest that he should put his money where his mouth is (make it the Dom Grads problem) by requesting that if he thinks this is OK, apparently based on superior knowledge and education (Ha Ha), that he should be asked to make a written declaration/proposal/requested action "for the record" (your boss ought to think this is a good idea to cover his own a****) and at this point your liberal arts graduate ought to get nervous and start backtracking.
Any weakness on the part of the Dom Grad is to be exploited as it ought to make your boss nervous.
Verbal conversations are all very well, but come court time you need it in writing because they have a strange habit of being remembered wrong.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
The problem is that for other reasons, my boss originally proposed tearing down the entire wall, which is unnecessary overkill. The seller's consultant reacted in opposition to an outrageous proposal with an outrageous proposal of his own, do nothing. And both are entrenched in their positions that are rooted in ego, not good construction practice.
Ron, I was assigned this project for destructive testing after a preliminary investigation had been done and recommendations made. I would assume that the buyer has had a comprehensive pre-purchase survey done and that report most likely recommended a more detailed inspection of the exterior walls. This is where my firm comes in. My boss , who is a licensed architect, and another employee did a moisture survey and poked a couple of holes and found some bad stuff and recommended a more comprehensive investigation that included removing portions of the walls. That's what I did. But I like your point about the purchaser being responsible in the future for the base flashing. I will definitely bring that up on Monday. It might make them reconsider. I have no choice but to stick to my position. As far as I'm concerned, there is no gray area here. I'm just a little shell-shocked after my office abruptly fired their accountant on Friday. She sat next to me, went to lunch with the boss to discuss some accounting principles/problems and never came back. I fear a similar fate.
jmw, I'll spend some time looking at that, thanks.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Sounds like you did a good job with the homework! Way to go.
I hated homework in school. Now I do it routinely...and actually enjoy most of it!
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Ultimately, your boss is more interested in saving face than in safety. Whatever resolution comes about needs to take that into account.
More than once in my career, I have had to remind employers that they hired an engineer, not a designer. I was hired to be an engineer, not a yes man. I have obligations to my profession and the public that supersede any to my employer.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
I know times are tough for you right now, but maybe you want to start looking for other employment options before something goes up in flames there.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
If the boss is having money problems, he will "follow the money here" to solve that problem. He will want to get paid by his client to solve his problem short term. Ignoring your report recommendation creates a long term problem that may never rear its ugly head. His choice I guess...
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
"Now, how to deal with that fact without losing your job or denting your career...."
TheTick
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."
Alan K. Simpson
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
No job bur still with reputation and license is better than no job, no license, being part of a failed company and maybe being unfavorably involved in litigation in the future.
Having said that, I think voice concerns that indicate you wish to protect your boss from litigation rather than you are questioning his ethics or competence. Do it tactfully so he can save face. Offer compromises that do meet codes and maybe bring more work in for this project. LET IT BE HIS IDEA.
DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SIGN A FALSE OR FRAUDULENT DOCUMENT.
Regards
Pat
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RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
If you jack up the wall and replace the bottom, and everything comes out fine, that would be a good outcome, and everyone would be happy, but the procedure includes some risk.
The risk amounts to this:
If you jack up the wall to replace the bottom, and everything goes sideways, the new replacement wall gets built at your expense.
Perhaps the boss is thinking that his way is more conservative, as in:
If you don't propose to jack up the wall and replace the bottom, the new replacement wall gets built at the customer's expense.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Be true to yourself and the public. Have an open mind and provide suggestions to your boss to rectify this conflict. Pressure does funny things to people.
I suggest that you meet with your boss prior to the meeting and educate him. It would be embarrassing to his company to be in disagreement with your boss in front of the client. Don't let him intimidate you, which is a tactic that bullies use to make people cave. Stand strong. Listen to your gut you will know what is right.
Please keep us updated on how it worked out.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
You should suggest several fixes including building a new wall with various risks listed and let them argue price vs risk to who for each option.
Regards
Pat
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RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
In some areas of the world, the brick mason will drain the wall cavity to the foundation's concrete blocks, which then drains to the foundation's interior drainage system. This is recommended practice when dealing with salt attack and rising damp issues; with these systems it is often necessary to have an active water management system. If you have a suspended timber internal floor, you now have breeze blocks and no weep holes. There are of course move situations than I mention, aka party walls, port buildings, flood areas, carports ect.
In my opinion if the building is not experiencing high moisture levels at the outside walls and there are no signs of water entry to the underside, top and ends of the floor system, there is no need to fix a problem that does not exist.
While the subject of weep holes would be highlighted in my report I would also mention the mitigating circumstances, thus not condemning the building on an issue that could be a non-issue. This would particularly be the case if the environment of the city was one that didn't have high moisture contents in the air.
However while all these technical issues could or could not be present, I still think there is a problem with the bosses actions and also the possible situation.
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
If you can't agree beforehand, don't be there.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
The Yes minister method for influencing decisions is quoted here:
This is from the episode "The Right to know" which can be seen here:
htt
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
In response to your question above, if no damage was present I would have recommended an inspection schedule be developed, aka simlar to your fire system, don't need to wet the building all the time just to stop a freak fire.
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Weep holes are easy to install with the right drill.
By base flashing, I assume this is the same as a damp proof course? If so, then there are liquid injection systems that can achieve the same results without having to remove any bricks (simply drill a few holes with the same drill as above).
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
For stucco, there is a positive weep required at the base of the wall to direct water from the interior water plane (there is no cavity), to the outside.
There are several ways that the intent of a through wall flashing can be accomplished, but injection systems usually don't work well. As for the stucco condition, it is likely there is a flashing breach and the water resistive barrier is improperly lapped. Further, there is usually a lack of proper tie-in with the flashings and water resistive barrier....all leading to structural deterioration and huge expense for remediation. The only reasonable way to remediate such stucco deficiencies is to remove the stucco, repair the damage, restore the barrier and re-apply stucco properly.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
So here's a side question -
Cass's employer is laying folks off, presumably due to financial constraints, but also gave Cass fairly explicit instructions to violate codes of ethics. If Cass gets laid off next, does Cass have a case against his (her?) employer for wrongful termination?
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Seriously I am sad to say, I think the boss here might have an agenda and deliberately hired a vulnerable scape goat. Call me cynical or hard nosed, but I do have some real concerns about this.
Regards
Pat
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RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
But I didn't want to be the one to suggest to Cass that her boss might be a bottom feeder.
He could be trying to clean up as much as he can, no questions asked, and then do a canoe-man and hide out in Panama.
(Cass, maybe we all should get together around a drink and discuss you choices in bosses. It certainly does look like this guy is trying to deal from the bottom.)
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
The meeting was called off for today. The purchaser sent an email to the seller's consultant suggesting that he (our purchaser) hire the seller's consultant to do the repair scope drawings that he (the seller's consultant) suggested. The construction arm of the seller's consultant's firm would then repair the building and provide a guarantee for the term our purchaser owned the building. I understood that to be our Client calling the other consultant's bluff, or throwing down a gauntlet of sorts.
But it appears that is not the case. The purchaser seems to be going this route despite the appearance of conflict of interest, the seller's consultant working for both the seller and the purchaser. My boss became very suspicious of the whole thing today and gracefully backed out of continuing with the investigation and the design of the repair documents. He suggested to our client that he should hire Dominican Boy, but also recommended getting a third party peer review. Later, my boss tried to convince me that the lack of through wall flashing at the base of the wall is OK, but now that I don't have to put that in a report, I just nodded my head and told him that i could see his logic. I also praised him for a brave decision to back out of what it turning into a very shady deal.
I attached part of my field sketch of the condition. I am still not convinced that this is a good detail for a masonry cavity wall. But what do I know. Half of my family has only been brick and stone masons for generations. Hopefully I have not yet tarnished myself as a trouble maker.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Your even more cynical than me I think, however I do agree. There is smoke so look for fire that is the source
Regards
Pat
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RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Please revisit the Yes Minister reference.
If you tell him he is being brave to take this decision, you make him nervous about it and he will worry he is taking a risk.
You should be saying this is the right decision and the safest thing to do with the least financial risk. Make him feel comfortable with it.
You need to say that it would take a braver more foolhardy person than you to not only overlook a code violation but put yourself on record as endorsing it like the Dom boy suggests.
You don't need to remind the boss that he was going to ask you to do this, but this is a good opportunity to make the boss subliminally aware that you would have refused to act that way. he will think twice next time anyway, his dabbling with the dark side nearly got him his fingers burnt and has certainly boosted his blood pressure.
You now don't need to trash the Dom Boy. He has done a nice job of showing himself up but you can certainly add fuel to the fire, it won't hurt to trash the guy as much as you can because the more odorous you make him seem the more tainted his ideas and you need your boss to be imprinted with the association between this guy and bad ideas.
I wonder how long before Dom Guy's lack of ethics gets him his license suspended?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
The most common tie-in difficulty is because the contractors inevitably use paper-backed lath and they put too many fasteners in it (yes...too many). The paper is so thin that it doesn't allow sliding another membrane under it to achieve a vertical joint. Horizontal joints are even worse and more critical from a waterproofing standpoint.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
I appreciate how the Yes Minister concept was put into context. Thank You. I only hope I can remember it at the appropriate time when I need to use it.
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
He has to learn to trust his own specialist.
Cass has to get him trained or this behaviour will be repeated more often than Star Trek.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way?
jmw, No doubt I need to work on my diplomatic skills. At least I didn't say what I was thinking. My boss said one of the reasons he wanted to pull out of the project is that he felt disrespected by the Client because of his refusal to take his advice about the stucco, no matter how many good arguments he had to remove all of it. I thought, 'yeah, this is your chickens coming home to roost and crapping on your head.' Maybe he will manage to make the connection.
"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump