Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
(OP)
I was going to post in the chemical section but not much activity over there. I was curious if HHO conversion has been explored in length here? Either as a fuel additive for automotive applications or for independent fuel?
Per my understanding, HHO is called "Browns gas" which is some magical combination of of H and O that stays in gas form. Per some research there might be some practicality to this for burning an intensely hot flame but that still raises the question, does energy in = energy out in this application? obviously there is an immense amount of energy in water but I was always taught that the energy to crack it is very high.
That, however, does not mean someone cannot re-write the book or find new ways around this. If the conversion makes practical sense, I would love to use this product for use in a steam generator but obviously if it takes more electric to produce the HHO than you get BTUs out, that jus does not make sense. I am wondering if the industry is already telling me the answer since this was developed way back in the 60s and still not being used....
Every month, I hear of some magician, non-engineer type trying to make wild claims that their car is running on water. I will believe it when I see it. Hydrogen burns VERY fast and probably would not make the ideal combustion fuel...
Per my understanding, HHO is called "Browns gas" which is some magical combination of of H and O that stays in gas form. Per some research there might be some practicality to this for burning an intensely hot flame but that still raises the question, does energy in = energy out in this application? obviously there is an immense amount of energy in water but I was always taught that the energy to crack it is very high.
That, however, does not mean someone cannot re-write the book or find new ways around this. If the conversion makes practical sense, I would love to use this product for use in a steam generator but obviously if it takes more electric to produce the HHO than you get BTUs out, that jus does not make sense. I am wondering if the industry is already telling me the answer since this was developed way back in the 60s and still not being used....
Every month, I hear of some magician, non-engineer type trying to make wild claims that their car is running on water. I will believe it when I see it. Hydrogen burns VERY fast and probably would not make the ideal combustion fuel...





RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
Yes, using hydrogen as an adjunct to other fuels to improve efficiency or emissions has been widely explored, and not just by tin foil hat wearers. eg h
It is possible that the improved efficiency of the total combustion process might exceed the energy required to crack the water in the first place, if the whole system is properly designed.
However, if you are talking about the efficiency of the process energy_in+water->H2+O2->water+work_out alone then the second law of thermodynamics is all you need. It will be less than 100%. It'll be 20% if you are very good at engineering or lucky, if you are burning the gas in an IC engine. it might be 60% if you use fuel cells etc.
An esteemed contributor here did try one of the tin foil hat brigade's devices, if you are lucky he might tell you exactly what fuel consumption improvement he measured. Clue, you won't be missing much if he doesn't.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
I just decided I wanted to understand the physics involved in leaning out because a lean gasoline condition is one subject to detonation and Hydrogen also accelerates gasoline burn soooo, what does all that mean??? Sounds like piston damage from here...
Per my understanding though, this is not Hydrogen, but OxyHydrogen in a gas which I am wondering is some freak of nature....
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
OH- is a real ion, but normally only exists in solution with water. However, you can get a plasma with the free ions, but probably not inside a car cylinder, since it usually requires much less than atmospheric pressure.
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
"Per my understanding though, this is not Hydrogen, but OxyHydrogen in a gas which I am wondering is some freak of nature...."
Oxyhydrogen is just H2 + O2, which of course is a gaseous mixture.
Benta.
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
I don't think the temperatures required to start spewing quorks out of the exhaust are going to be practical or even achievable. I do think Brown's gas is an anagram for Snake oil, but I haven't rearranged all the letters myself to be certain.
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
The arguments for HHO devices today seem to be based around improving combustion of the fuel you're supplying (by making it burn faster, more completely, with leaner AFRs, etc). Not all of those claims are necessarily bogus (very lean natural gas engines have been demonstrated to benefit from H2 enrichment). It's not as obvious that there's nothing to it, if you assume an engine development program around hydrogen-enriched lean combustion.
The clearly bogus bit is the proposal that you can slap a device on an existing vehicle and fiddle with the AFR to get something which still meets emissions and delivers improved fuel economy.
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
Possibly water can be looked at in the same way some day? i just don't think this is as simple as energy in = energy out because water already contains potential energy. However, the HO bond has proved extreme in our atmosphere but maybe there will be a day when we can easily crack water to extract the energy.
This might be similar to chopping wood. Takes less energy to extract the heat energy from the wood because there is potential energy (fuel) stored up in the wood.
Maybe I am a little off base in my thinking. Certainly not a chemical wizard, just trying to wrap my head around the principals.
Regarding combustion in an IC engine, I could undertand where H could improve the use of all the hydrocarbons in the fuel but I fail to see how accelerating the combustion rate would off any benefit. This is already the advantage of diesel. Slower burn gives a better conversion of that pressure to the crankshaft. I realize there are other reasons from the higher CR but just trying to make my point that accelerating burn rate in an IC engine might not be optimal.
I realize that the best situation for an IC engins is one in which you can fire the cylinder at 0 degrees or TDC and still achieve peak cylinder pressures at the right time. As of now, rates are still a bit slow so we have to add timing. By increasing the CR though, we can reduce the timing and get a better eff from the engine.
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
The energy that is released when you burn hydrogen to make water is almost identical to the energy you need to put in when you "crack" water to make hydrogen.
For a physical analogy:
1) you roll a ball down a hill and it goes faster and faster as potential energy is converted to kinetic. ~ Burning hydrogen to convert chemical potential energy to thermal energy
2) If you want to roll the ball down the hill again, you must get it to the top of the hill, and this requires that you put in energy. ~ "Cracking" water to make hydrogen and oxygen requires you supply enough energy to restore the chemical potential energy which was released in step 1.
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
Rather find a way to store energy. Obviously HHO is not feasible either because we are not effectively storing it. So far, the only thing that even half way makes sense is DIY lead acid batteries made in the shop and a LOT of them. 30k lbs of them... Then you look at the price of lead and none of it makes sense.
Sensible large energy storage,,,where are you??
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
Yup, that's the Holy Grail right there...
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
You need a turbine to convert it back to electricity. That might be achieved with the pump used to get the water up the hill being used to drive the windmill when there is no wind.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
- Steve
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
ht
Kyle
RE: Water electrolysis HHO conversion. Thermodynamics
Snake oil aside, I thought I would answer this one question you posed:
"I fail to see how accelerating the combustion rate would offer any benefit"
A faster burn speed, (i.e., shorter burn duration), does actually increase thermal-conversion efficiency. The shorter the duration, the closer to a constant-volume cycle. It also reduces MBTT.
Regards