Where have all the engineers gone??
Where have all the engineers gone??
(OP)
I just found the following on CNN.
http://ww w.cnn.com/ 2010/LIVIN G/12/30/cb .popular.g raduate.de grees/inde x.html?ire f=obinsite
And I wonder: Why has the demand for engineers declined??
And I wonder because everymans demand for engineering gadgets are still present in an ever increasing complexity. (Computers, Kitchen utilities, TV and Home video etc) but I think the most demanding and most complex engineered utilities must be the "tools" we use to get as far as possible and as fast as possible from A to B. And at the same time without failure and accidents. We still need ever more advanced cars, trains, aeroplanes and ships. Wher to they come from if not from clever engineers? And you dont get from A to B with a computer if you do not have the car with and engine.
I am a mechanical (aerospace) engineer myself from Europe and love my job, and have been privileged with working with advanced automobiles, aeroplanes and spacecrafts. This survey from CNN is not unique, and not specific for the US. What will transport the dentists, the doctors, the accountants, the teachers, the politicians from A to B if there are no engineers to design and develop the transporters.
I just wonder?
http://ww
And I wonder: Why has the demand for engineers declined??
And I wonder because everymans demand for engineering gadgets are still present in an ever increasing complexity. (Computers, Kitchen utilities, TV and Home video etc) but I think the most demanding and most complex engineered utilities must be the "tools" we use to get as far as possible and as fast as possible from A to B. And at the same time without failure and accidents. We still need ever more advanced cars, trains, aeroplanes and ships. Wher to they come from if not from clever engineers? And you dont get from A to B with a computer if you do not have the car with and engine.
I am a mechanical (aerospace) engineer myself from Europe and love my job, and have been privileged with working with advanced automobiles, aeroplanes and spacecrafts. This survey from CNN is not unique, and not specific for the US. What will transport the dentists, the doctors, the accountants, the teachers, the politicians from A to B if there are no engineers to design and develop the transporters.
I just wonder?





RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I think one reason more engineers don't get masters degrees is because they are more employable than liberal arts BAs. Many people resort to grad school (or worse, law school) because their employment or promotion prospects with there current BA degrees are not good.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Could it be that the construction industry has tanked?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Fe
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Fe
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
As per that CNN study, more than half of the graduate degrees were in either education or business. Many schools and universities require a masters degree as part of their teacher requirememts, so that explains the popularity of the program. And since a whole lot of those BA degrees out there are completely worthless, it's safe to say that many of these same people are pursuing masters degrees in business to make themselves more marketable and employable. An engineer could easily work themselves up into management, whereas a political science major in a dead end won't have that luxury unless they go back to school.
This CNN study is a bit odd though. It breaks down the percentage of graduate degrees awarded in each broad discipline, but then lists a top 15 list of the fastest growing careers for the next decade. And yet, most of those careers don't require a masters degree, let alone an undergraduate one. Would a home health aid, veterinary tech, athletic trainer or physical therapist need an MS at the end of the their name? Unfortunately, what this article doesn't talk about, is the often prohibitive cost of graduate school, which is what discourages a lot of people from pursuing in the first place.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I'm thinking of the manufacturers. Especiallay the Automotive makers. (Ford, GM, Chrysler.) Can'they see they are loosing ground? The Japaneese and Koreans are grabbing more and more of the market. And as far as I know (And I know to s certain extent the Japanese) the demand for mechanical engineers (MSc and PhD)are increasing in Asia. And when China and India wakes up, Europe and US will be struggling even more. China is today one of the worlds largest Automotive suppliers, but they have had more than enough to supply their home market. When will the west wake up???
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Don't assume that because engineers are important to industry and society and the economy, that educating MORE engineers will lead to thriving industries and a booming economy! That would only follow if the ONLY thing holding back industry and our economies was a shortage of engineers.
In Canada, 1/3 of people with engineering degrees per the 2006 census were employed as engineers or managers of engineers. Until that stat rises from 1/3 to say 2/3 or better still 9/10, nobody can tell me there's a shortage of engineering grads. Developed nations long ago built the capability to educate more engineers than their economy could possibly use. It's not the 1950s and never will be again.
As to the usefulness of grad school to an engineer- that depends on what you want to do, and where you want to do it. The 2/3 of eng grads who remain outside the profession at any given time aren't there because of a lack of an advanced degree, that's for sure.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
If the above is true then there seems little point in stamping your feet and saying that it should not be so.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Or I might be wrong.......
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I dont know much about the other industries so I will speak about mine.
It is easier to get a business type degree that gives you an easier job with less responsibility that is more respected and that pays more money.
The percieved requirement of Civil engineers has gone down with many local authorities not having a qualified engineer on staff.
Society has been putting less and less emphasis on maintenance, particularly that of things like highway infrastructure. Therefore engineers that previously worked on these things have less work.
When things needed to be calculated by hand it was obvious that a qualified engineer was required to do the calculations, but now that we have automated analysis and design programs there is the perception that less qualified personnel can achieve the same result.
A large amount of the engineering has followed the manufacturing offshore and it is mostly the bespoke design that is left.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Unless your talking about MBAs, BA in Business still does not beat the BS in Engineering...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29408064?slide=3
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Do I have to say it again for the others ...
[B.Eng] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*10^100 [BA] in every way.
Fe
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I graduated in the summer of '08 with a BS in rubber engineering and spent weeks calling Ford and Goodyear and applying for all relevant jobs they were posting, even ones that were probably below my level of education, just trying to get any sort of in. I was pretty darn persistant. After the normal methods of application failed me, I found some midlevel managers and called them directly for an introduction. Got nothin'. I know that was at the height of the recession and all, but still. I'm happily employed now but I still apply at both those companies off and on and haven't gotten anything in return in the slightest.
So it's not just that there are no engineers out there. I was one step away from banging on the doors for a job. For me, at least, I see working non-auto as more job security than auto, which is depressing really.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
"While the large number of master's degree earners in business and education is definitely a testament to the popularity of those professions -- it doesn't necessarily attest to the growth of these particular industries and vice versa.
Despite the fact that only 4 percent of master's degrees were awarded in math or computer science in 2009, for example, many of today's fastest growing professions are in these disciplines.
The same goes for health science and engineering -- though these graduate programs may not be as popular as those in business and education, job opportunities are expected to abound."
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Shrugs. The two main automotive companies in Australia are hiring right now. The company I work for had a small engineeering headcount reduction in the depths of the GFC mainly, I think, so that we could be seen to sharing the pain, but the reality is that SE Asia and the Pacific region is desperately short of automotive product development expertise, and the Australian companies are well placed to provide it. Our designs are built in South Africa, India, China and Thailand and will be exported worldwide real soon now. Bear in mind that the Japanese are getting out of building cars in Japan, it really seems to me that automotive assembly is moving to low cost labor markets, like it or not.
So you can do the King Canute thing, or figure out how to make a career out of the inevitable.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
As I said, I was referring to my industry which incidentally does not appear on that list.
Love the pictures that they put with the job titles:
Computer engineer - shows a guy repairing computers
Chemical engineer - appears to ahow a chemist
Mining engineer - looks like part of a fun park!
Just goes to prove that the media has no idea what engineers do.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Is it a global conspiracy to keeep engineers down and..........sorry I was a bit late with my tablets!
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Perhaps close-ups of the working hands of some of the Canadian engineers might give a clue. But otherwise I don't think we have a distinctive "look", uniform or smell for that matter!
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Hardly sounds exciting.
After all they need to make a person want to sell themselves into this profession (or become a slave to it).
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
In the U.S. the problem is two-fold: 1. Engineers don't self-promote and 2. Parents don't push their kids into engineering.
Engineers don't self-promote
I work in a large office with a lot of senior engineers. When they explain their jobs to other people they say things like "I work on a computer all day, or I stare at drawings all day". Instead they could say, " I analyze structures to make sure that they are safe for the public/can be built faster to save clients money/etc". You never hear stock broker or insurance agent describe their job as "staring at the computer", so why do engineers?
Parents don't encourage their kids into engineering
With all the senior engineers in my office, you would think that there would be a lot of their kids going into engineering. Quite the opposite. They encourage them away from it. Another example comes from a family member. My cousin started in engineering against the advice of his father. Eventually his father's pressure won out and my cousin switched to business.
I do think that this decline can be reversed. If engineers promoted their profession and communicated what they do, then the general public would have a greater appreciation for the profession. Start with your friends and family and be a little more descriptive in describing your job.
These are just my experiences and observations.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I can always say "I solve technical problems, that my coworkers can't figgure out". But I don't. It's easer to say "it dosen't matter, because I get free electricty" (and people believe it).
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
What benefit would there POSSIBLY be to graduating even more engineers, such that only 1/4 of the grads end up working as engineers instead of the 1/3 of them who currently do?
Again, this isn't region- or discipline specific, but the general stats tell us that enrollments in engineering SHOULD decline, because our ability to generate engineering grads already outstrips the labour force demand for them by a WIDE margin. That may not be your personal experience, but it IS what the stats tell us.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Hope I'm wrong with most of my statement, those of you who have moved into management, do you manage engineers or are you strictly a business manager? I see a HUGE difference in the two.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I work in Automotive, and although there are line workers making more than me (My uncle made 100k+), their hourly rate is maxed, less than mine, and the only reason they make more is because of overtime. I surpassed their max hourly rate years ago and am only mid career.
Sure, there are many electricians, plumbers etc making much more because they get to keep what they charge, but they usually own their own company. And they didn't come right out of training making that money either. As with most careers they paid their dues.
Every Engineering field has different pay scales, but I don't know many other careers, short of medical or law, that pay what my coworkers got paid straight out of school. And my salary shows no signs of a cap.
I would never push somebody to become an engineer, or into any other field for that matter, but if they had the interest, I might encourage them.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Also comparing yourself to the average lineworker or truck driver really gives a skewed picture. If the average professional engineer was to spend 4 or 5 years dedicating their energy and intelligence into coming up with the best way of making money than they probably would be considerably better off than the average line worker or truck worker.
As for the comments regarding decision makers, I really think that we should be more outspoken about the lack of technical competence of the government and of people in the media.
When that architect said that the world trade centre would not have fallen down if it was made of reinforced concrete, where were the engineers telling him that he didnt know what he was talking about and he should leave those sorts of statements to those who do.
We need to make ourselves heard in the media.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Hmmmm ok...from the United States Department of Labor (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ooh_index.htm):
Plumbers (Building equipment contractors) $21.86/Hr ($45,469/Yr)
Electrician (Nonresidential building construction) $22.21/Hr ($46,197/Yr)
HVAC Techs (Building equipment contractors) $ 18.26/Hr ($37,981/Yr)
Median hourly wages of heavy truck and tractor-trailer drivers were $17.92/Hr ($37,274)
Ahhhhh... yes we do...
Mechanical Engineering $74,920/year, (I'm actually between the highest 25% and 10%) so the delta from say an electrician is $28,723 per year. Let's say the same ratio over 40 years, so that is a delta of $1,149,000 by retirement. Not too bad.
Also new grad engineers start salaries rank the highest compared to other degrees:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29408064?slide=2
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
On the other hand, there are still places I could earn more, but I don't want to live there. So balance of location is the key to here.
But for so many unfilled positions, we are not seeing rising saleries, like you would see in other professions.
True so many grads don't stay in engineering, but how does that compare to other professions? But without experence why would anyone want to hire a grad? They want to grow an engineer (Which seems to be rare).
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I made $36.50/hr as a teaching assistant at uni.
Fe
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
In reference to cranky, Location. I'm in the midwest, and in our state Electricians, Plumbers, Lineman, etc. make much higher than the median wage you have shown. So I guess my understanding is skewed. Thanks for the national average stats though, it's an interesting look.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
You missed my point entirely on that one.
If you add up the cost of university to the salary you could potentially have been earning at that time you get about 70k a year. Over 4 years that gives you a total of about 240k that you are behind before you even start working.
It is a good ten years before you start getting anywhere near even with a salary in the upper quadrant. Those are the ten years when most people buy a house, start a family, contribute the most important part of their pension e.t.c. most of the most expensive things tend to happen in those years.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
You are talking to exactly my perceptions... I know in my current situation, our Lineman average $72,000 per year. It will be at least another 3 yrs until I reach that level, on my current pace anyway at this company. I will be 7-8 years out of college, with a 4 yr degree that took me 5 yrs and a final school bill of roughly $60,000. So we're talking 12 yrs out of high school. Those guys had one year of school (post high school) with a bill of roughly $10,000 and had that $72,000 wage just 3 yrs after trade school when they reached journeyman status. So as you say, by age 30 I have the same wage they had at 23. And I got married, have a little one, bought a house, etc. I can tell you my house and vehicles are much more modest than several of the lineman, who happen to be 3-5 yrs younger than myself.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
However, in my case, I went to a public college and today's tuition is around $3,000 per semester (and yes it is an ABET school, with a Bachelors in Engineering to boot). When I graduated back in 1995 it was $700 per semester. It was a commuting college too so I stayed with my parents. I do have to say it took me about 12 years after graduating to break the six figure mark. I do have alums in my company who are doing much better than I and one day hope to reach their level of pay and especially engineering prowess.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
For the engineers who get jobs as engineers right out of school, I don't think they're too badly off relative to the trades. But if my classmates and those of some of my colleagues are any indication, the ones who graduate and get jobs outside of engineering, in the general business world out there, do even better.
If we did a better job of controlling supply into our profession, like all the REAL professions do, all the people who actually work as engineers would be better off. Instead, we're out there recruiting kids to become engineers as if we're in short supply. I guess more than a few of us don't understand basic economics!
Engineering is still a good gig if you're in the top 10% of your profession. Trouble is, it was once a good gig if you were in it at all...I don't personally call that progress.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Technically, that is the base. But I work with many engineers with engineering degrees who are not licensed engineers. So to our company, engineers are a dime a dozen. Licensed engineers, on the other hand, are few and far between. If law required everyone, even private extempt companies to have licensed PEs heading their work, engineering would certainly become ALOT more valuable, as would licensure.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
If you make licensing compulsory, schools will aim at teaching for the license. Be careful what you wish for.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Reminds me of when I was in Jury Duty and made my deliberation understand the math they were thinking, which is just insane to begin with, and they finally agreed they were willing to give the winner in the trial unlimited money.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering
http://bwengr.com
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
The argument that engineers don't need licensure because people aren't being killed daily (as they once were) as a result of engineering errors is missing the point. Protecting the public is different than, and superior to, merely compensating the victims after the fact.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I would argue that many government engineers are more involved in project management than engineering (in general) and also rely heavily on consulting engineers.
As was mentioned earlier, just because the government gives you a piece of paper saying that you're an engineer doesn't mean that you're a good one.
Also, there is the issue of overseas competition. If companies cannot find engineers in country, it's easy enough to go out of country for many products. There's nothing that says one country's engineers are better than another. The same can't be said for other professions like doctors, lawyers or plumbers - all who have strict licensure requirements to maintain high pay.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I have a CDL (Commercial Drivers License) in my pocket good for tractor-trailers and/or buses and it is said that I can make more with it than as an engineer? Then why am I working as an engineer?
Because it is not true that I can make more. I can gross more (maybe), but I can't make more. By the time I pay road expenses and a lot of other hidden "etc" I would make a lot less. Many truck driver's families live on about $10-15K/yr after all the bread winner's expenses are paid.
Now to the OP topic.
Engineering is the "stealth" profession. If engineers as a whole did what Doctors and Lawyers do with respect to promoting their profession, when someone says in that house lives a Doctor and over there is a Lawyer, they would also point out where the engineers live too.
Doctors control what and who gets into their profession and control the numbers. Interestingly they too in these times area having to fill their ranks with non-citizens. They do have one thing in common with us in that their education is rigorous too.
Lawyers on the other hand have a racket. They have discovered that those that make the laws can benefit from those laws so they all go into lawmaking.
If we could get a lot of engineers to get interested in politics and get elected and start making laws that benefited engineers like Lawyers do for Lawyers, we'd swap places with them.
In general we do what we do because we like what we do, not because it is a money making racket. That has been pointed out in this forum several times before.
Because what we do is technical and difficult we tend to attract the nerdy types (yes that would be me too and proud of it.) I'd rather design and build a power plant any day than invest in one. But then again, I am not going to bitch when the finance guy down the street makes more money trading the power than I made generating it. The choice was mine.
rmw
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
A decrease in US engineering advanced degrees is likely tied to the increased difficulty in obtaining a visa for overseas students post 9/11- they had traditionally made up the majority of US engineering grad students.
A US engineer that has just graduated has to make a choice- accept a job at $50K plus benefits and start paying back their college loans, or spend another 1-2-3 yrs in grad school , accumulate another $20-60K in debt , and possibly be overqualified for whatever jobs are out there. For most , it is not a difficult decision.
Teachers /educators usually qualify for a higher pay grade if they obtain an advanced degree, so that is a rational choice that explains that increase in MA's. It is not so clear cut with engineering- assuming you can land a job.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Jimmy Carter was an engineer, and that fact made things worse for engineers.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Former colleagues, who are now retired, could not get their kids to pursue engineering because their kids saw the way they were treated by the company and wanted no part of it. They also resented their father's being away from home so much. They wanted to be home for their kids to be an integral part of their lives and deduced that an engineering career would not allow that.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Where have all the engineers gone??????
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Operations engineering will also generally go overseas to follow the exodus of manufacturing jobs. This is excepting domestic industries like natural gas processing, which will stay in the US.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
h
Excerpt:
"A vast amount of "stuff' is still made in the USA, albeit not the inexpensive consumer goods that fill the shelves in Target or Walgreens. American factories make fighter jets and air conditioners, automobiles and pharmaceuticals, industrial lathes and semiconductors. Not the sort of things on your weekly shopping list? Maybe not. But that doesn't change economic reality. They may have "clos[ed] down the textile mill across the railroad tracks.' But America's manufacturing glory is far from a thing of the past."
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
"Luck is where preparation meets opportunity"
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
We sell into that market and most of the instruments we sell go to asia.
Similar goes with other items in that list.
With all the off set requirements etc. many components for aircraft and vehicles at least are imported, and we're teaching the 'customers' how to do it their selves next time (well, maybe, easier said than done for some of the items).
Even a lot of high tech stuff is already being made in China or similar places.
Don't misunderstand me though, US is doing better than US last I saw. However, I fear they're maybe on the same track, except the UK is further along it.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I think it's misleading to take the total dollars of manufacturing output and present that as a sign American industry is actually doing better than anyone else in the world.
What I like is Perry's original blog post concedes the loss of over 7 million manufacturing jobs since 1970 but still concludes with "Americans should take more pride and celebrate our status as the world's leading manufacturer." Hurray!
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
In house engineering drives down the "value" of engineering. Engineers are put in compromising positions when they work directly for the end user. You also get swallowed up in the company, and your voice becomes that of an individual, not "The Firm".
That being said I have worked the last 10 years as an
inhouse engineer.
Stone Cold
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
The "not exactly the firm" that I work for also employes lawyers and doctors (in very different departments), and so many of us consider ourselfs as gardians of stupid ideas (take that one of two ways).
We all bring something to the table of ideas, and bad buckets of ideas always seem to leak away.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
We've permitted ourselves to be separated from the value we create such that we've ended up as commodified service-providers (i.e. servants).
Too many of us are consultants, whose only product is paper. Too few of us are true participants in the value chain we create or enable. That participation comes with risk as well as reward. By avoiding the former, we've lost quite a lot of the latter.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Many technicians and technologists are quite happy to denigrate the engineer because engineering is easy. Anyone can understand it and EE is the easiest of all. I've heard it many times. One maintenance hand criticized me greatly for one of my solutions. I had budget constraints and unsuccessfully lobbied to get more money to spend. A solution was not worth more money than they had budgeted. The maintenance hand convinced the Process Engineer to spend more money. He had greater access to him and they were buds. He then exclaimed loudly to anyone who would listen that he could do EE and much better than I ever could. I let him go on and kept silent. He enrolled in engineering and dropped out the first semester because he couldn't handle math. He had the courtesy and grace to apologize to me for his criticisms. I had the courtesy and grace to accept.
But that, ladies and gentlemen, is how our profession is viewed by too many people. They cannot see the value we bring through building materials and products, transportation, fuel, computers, appliances, food products, medications, medical equipment, entertainment, etc. We, collectively and individually, do a very poor job of educating the public in all the ways we touch their lives.
I doubt too many people with mental illness, cancer, depression, epilepsy, etc. would want to do without their medications. Without engineers, their medications would not be possible. I doubt they ever consider this throughout all the years they pop those pills, take those injections, etc.
One of the fundamental problems is that people are so entertainment oriented today they don't want to be bothered with how products are made and reach their periphery. But, I digress......
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Let Q = Quality
Let F = Faster
Let C = Cheaper
Let B = Better
According to what has now become the prevalent business model in EPC (where P.Eng.'s are ruled by MBA's):
Q = F + C + B
However, it is difficult to tangibly quantify "B", so the following substitution is typically made:
B = F + C
Thus:
Q = F + C + (F + C)
Q = 2(F + C)
Hence:
F + C = (Q/2)
Put another way:
Q = F + C + B
(F + C) = (Q - B)
(F + C) = [2(F + C) - (F + C)]
(F + C) = (F + C)
From which, one concludes two things:
(1) When considered only in terms of speed and cost, quality is halved.
(2) "Faster and Cheaper" is exactly equal to "Faster and Cheaper", and "Quality" is eliminated from consideration altogether.
I call it "MBA Algebra".
Not that I am in any way bitter.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Got my star fot that derivation. Mind if I circulate it to a few friends in the EPC business?
Mark Hutton
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Caution, though. I presented it to management at my former place of employment. They were not overwhelmingly amused.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Fast
Good
Cheap
You can only ever have two of these qualities applied to a project. Select the two you want and you automatically get the opposite of the one that is left
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
SNORGY, over the years I've found management to become decreasingly humorous and increasingly sensitive. They cannot admit to making a mistake, which makes them exceptionally uptight. In 2005, I interviewed with an engineering manager who had nothing personal in his office. It was stark and cold as was the interview. He began as an instrument engineer and was known for doing projects with excellence. As the engineering manager, he finally "understood" why excellence was not required. He moved back to engineering in 2009.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
- Steve
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
"Q = F + C + B" was a model developed by management...MBAs...
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
- Steve
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Accordingly, "Q" often eludes me as well, if it exists at all.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
My perspective is we as working class engineers, need to be good at our jobs, no matter what managment puts in our way.
Said another way, managers are like "vars", they provide no useful work, but are required to get work done.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
"We will be the best in the business if we are faster, cheaper and better than anyone else."
While, arguably, that may have been true, the problem was in the ensuing definition of "better".
Thus, it came to pass that there was a Management Brainstorming Assessment (MBA) event, wherein all of the managers and senior leaders concluded that, with respect to "Quality" and "Quality Management", the firm was "...well ahead of schedule..." and "...exceeding expectations..." relative to the baseline plan. An unidentified individual then asked:
"So...what is "Quality", exactly?"
Nobody knew.
"So...is there a corporate definition of "Quality", at least?"
There wasn't.
"So...how do we know what great shape we're in with respect to it, when we don't even know what it is?"
He immediately became an unpopular individual who went on to deriving random algebraic expressions.
In any event, to me, "Quality" means meeting or coming closest to optimally meeting, the following, in descending order of importance:
(1) Safety.
(2) Suitability for intended function.
(3) Reliability throughout intended design life.
(4) Can be professionally endorsed proudly rather than begrudgingly or apprehensively.
(5) Cost.
(6) Schedule.
But, *STAR* for Cranky108 for saying (paraphrasing) that no matter whatever else management throws our way, we are obliged to do what we do (engineering) well.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Take a week off, read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". It's been 20 years since I read my copy, but it's still in the bookshelf, a definite keeper.
- Steve
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I will probably have my wife purchase and download the e-book onto her Ipad. I will read it at our next agility trial.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Many who find themselves completely outside the value chain except for the value of their fees (a commodity for which supply and demand sets the price), tend to look with disdain upon engineers who remain involved in that value chain, calling our participation in it as somehow a conflict of interest.
Engineers who wish to be compensated properly should put their money where their mouths are. If they feel that their solutions will give lower installed costs over the service life of what they're designing, they should find a way to be paid on that basis rather than merely for fees provided for "advice", or to prepare drawings and specifications.
Engineers need to be involved in the game on the financial side, such that there is a motivation for them to take technical risk in return for financial reward, and to invest in engineering solutions as a means to improve financial performance rather than merely to solve interesting problems. Otherwise, excessive conservatism to protect reputation, or an avoidance of engineering altogether in favour of a reliance on the rote following of codes and standards, is a natural and expected result.
Is the participation of engineers in the value chain in this way somehow at odds with their responsibility to hold the public safety as paramount? No, I'm not convinced of that at all.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I wish I had negotiated bonuses better with employers. I've made employers a heap of money because they had no idea how much they wasted. I didn't either but I knew it had to be a lot just through observation and I was right. I've also increased throughput a few times, which is another biggie for ROI.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
The truth is the customers are getting a very good deal, but they have been given the idea they should get everything for free.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
The client is the second most dangerous thing in this business.
Right behind...
Not that I am in any way bitter.
Regards,
SNORGY.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Besides, why not promote bad engineers to the land of layoff fodder?
I've heard it said many times that "Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in a way that they look forward to the trip".
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
I will say it seems to me middle management may suck a lot. Stuck between Company and your employees, powerless to get anything done for either side.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Now I'm with a company that prides itself in not having layoff's.
And even with the down turn, we cut back on projects, and contractors, but no layoffs.
Maybe the grunts are just so much harder to find in the utility business.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Part of the answer to the question "where have all the engineers gone" could be that they have realized that there simply aren't a lot of opportunities to get upper tier jobs strictly within an engineering role. Although many people are drawn to engineering because it can be a very rewarding career, the reality is that most of the people who are smart enough and hard working enough to get into the engineering field also have the skillset to make more money elsewhere. Young people today are evaluating careers more closely than kids did in the past and with so much information available, especially in forums such as this, it is pretty easy for kids to find out what they can expect from a career in this field.
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Incidentally if you really want to know why your boss is paid more than you for less work, check out 'tournament theory'.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Regards,
Mike
RE: Where have all the engineers gone??
Sabotage does occur and management often does not see it or do anything about it, if they do see it.
The Good Ol' Boy is alive and well and often does not keep the Ol' Boys motivated. I've watched this for years. Men have bragged about how little they have to do to move ahead.
From my observations, I don't think tournament theory works as good as they think.
I took the above quotes from Why Your Boss Is Overpaid. Tournament theory is a new term for me but I've always known I was in competition with others. It is one reason I volunteered for jobs others wouldn't touch, i.e., to gain the experience.
Many men will not take assignments they know have a high probability of making them look bad. It significantly reduces their promotability. I have heard this from more than one man. For me, looking bad took a back seat to gaining the knowledge to do my job better and be a stronger competitor. Gaining knowledge was worth the risk and I thought I would succeed. As a woman, that was viewed as being too aggressive by the men. I have been told that more than once.
Some of you are probably thinking I rag on men a lot and must hate them. That is far from the truth. I love men and what they have done, are doing, and will do. At least, the good guys and there are plenty of them around.