Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Operational vs analysis/design engineering
(OP)
We all know the engineering field is probably one of the most broad professional choices out there. Out of all the jobs out there, it seems like they all fall either into two categories: the more analysis or designing side, or a conducting operation or over seeing trades and get sh1t done side.
I'm kind of wondering, from experience, are engineers who never really got any real world (work) experience in playing with numbers and doing analysis and design, get the shaft later on in life if they choose they prefer to do more actual "engineering"?
I stayed in touch with some engineering professors, and some urge me to look for something that actually involves "real engineering". On the other hand, just being in the work environment of a defense contractor, it seems operations is what makes the world (company) go around.
Any comments from more experienced professional whose been around the block? Im sure this thread may also help many new engineering graduates who are deciding on which jobs to take.
I'm kind of wondering, from experience, are engineers who never really got any real world (work) experience in playing with numbers and doing analysis and design, get the shaft later on in life if they choose they prefer to do more actual "engineering"?
I stayed in touch with some engineering professors, and some urge me to look for something that actually involves "real engineering". On the other hand, just being in the work environment of a defense contractor, it seems operations is what makes the world (company) go around.
Any comments from more experienced professional whose been around the block? Im sure this thread may also help many new engineering graduates who are deciding on which jobs to take.





RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
I do regret the total of a year or so I spent doing just plain stupid jobs but that motivates me to make sure I (and preferably nobody else) don't have to do them again. For example - we used to calculate the price of building a car by hand, including an estimate of how long it took to tighten each bolt etc. I suggested they do it by computer (OK, this was a LONG time ago) and suggested how it would work. Or we used to tighten greased wheelbearings up on a temperamental machine (which I spent weeks trying to get right), to 1.4 Nm (basically fingertight). That is an impossible spec. Now we use preassembled hub units.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
What you described sounds like a technician or engineer aide.
I'm not implying doing physical labor. When I talk about operations, i mean being responsible for X and Y systems in a scope and making sure they are operating by making decisions for repairs, writing procedures for trades to conduct work on X and Y systems, and making sure trades follow A and B controls and regulations.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Very good post, thank you.
"Real" engineering is a very elusive concept. When I was doing pipeline construction management, the task could have been done by a high school graduate with a decade of experience (and it usually is), but by spending a year building the projects I designed I designed better projects for the rest of my career. When I was doing project management, the task could have been done by someone with a business degree since most of the work involves making sure that next week's resources are on site before they are needed and dealing with schedule changes, but again the time I spent juggling those balls made me better at specifying what was needed on future projects.
The only job I ever had as an engineer that felt like "office crap" was working as an Engineering Manager, because I never DID anything productive (I did do a bit of mentoring to make sure that the boys and girls considered the ramifications of their actions, but they all felt I was a meddling old dolt and they were probably right). I got out of that role very quickly.
In short, if it feels like what you are doing will improve your knowledge for future tasks then it IS real engineering even if it feels menial at the time.
David
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Just what do you think these engineers are analyzing and designing? Where are these things being made? For whom? By whom?
Sounds like your perception of design engineering came from some world other than "real".
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
The next real engineers will be signing off on outsourced designs, while being mobile and working from home.
It is very easy for some engineers to be pigeon-holed and eventually laid off.
Chris
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RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
That makes you a manager, not an engineer. And why is writing procedures "real engineering" while analysis is not? In my world, we get "shlt" done by doing the trades, and not by writing procedures to do the trades.
TTFN
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RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
R. E. Hellmund
Engineering is the professional art of applying science to the optimum conversion of natural resources to the benefit of man.
Ralph J. Smith
The ideal engineer is a composite ... He is not a scientist, he is not a mathematician, he is not a sociologist or a writer; but he may use the knowledge and techniques of any or all of these disciplines in solving engineering problems.
N. W. Dougherty
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
I agree with zdas04...real engineering is elusive. Sometimes it is getting your hands dirty...sometimes it is pulling out the calculator....sometimes it is developing a concept on paper....sometimes it is all of those.
There are no clear dividing lines. This argument of "practical vs. theoretical" has no answer. I've been incredibly lucky to have a career that has thus far given me a good mix of the two, both in manufacturing/industry and in construction. I think that each has served me well in assisting my clients in the other. For instance, my experience in analysis and design lets me understand not only what will work today, but what will work for the long term. My practical experience lets me understand a more efficient way to achieve results than just putting it on paper. I don't try to separate them, because they are the experience from which, in the words of the great philosopher Popeye..."I yam what I yam".
You find good and bad in all of these...both in experience and in people. You'd also be surprised, if you think about it, how close the two happen to be most of the time. A good "practical" engineer, working in a manufacturing or industrial setting, uses his theoretical training as second nature, sometimes without even considering that when making a decision "on the fly", that he has just "analyzed" and/or "designed" something, no less so than if he sat down with calc pad in hand and ran the numbers. Similarly, a good "theoretical" engineer gets his analysis and design tempered properly when he knows from practical experiece what will work in place, and what will not work.
I maintain that you need both to be well rounded and provide expedient solutions to engineering issues and problems.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
- Steve
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
There must have been some misunderstanding here. "Real engineering" is referred to as making calculations and designing systems, according to many engineering professors.
The products and services our company does deals with naval nuclear reactors and systems that support them. We can't just pick up tools and start working on them if we felt like it. Engineers write the procedures, the trades (whom went to school to do their trade skills) do them.. even if it just changing a light bulb (not kidding).
Yes and no. Our supervisor owns the scopes. He then divides certain systems to the engineers that works under him.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Engineers tell the tradesmen "where" and "how big" and stuff like that, sometimes by crawling into the bilge alongside the tradesman and making a mark, sometimes by creating a drawing, sometimes by causing someone else to make a drawingsometimes by writing a procedure.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
I can tell you that if you attempt to find employment doing engineering you will likely take a large pay cut. Although that may not be the case in the nuclear industry.
It seems to me from personal observation, if you are lucky enough to get hired or can get a position by who you know, being employed by a contractor doing federal government work is desirable life long employment. Typically higher pay, a desirable work schedule, and can usually weather recessions by working on jobs created by federally funded projects.
Design engineering is something that will likely require on the job mentoring for years or massive amounts of time during the day if you are expected to figure everything out for yourself.
I have known several guys who started with a federal contractor and switched to consulting early in their careers. 3 out of 4 of them I greatly respect their engineering knowledge and abilities as displayed in their work and management ability. One who never displayed any engineering ability but was my manager didn't garner as much of my respect because he didn't have a clue how to do my job.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Over the years, I have managed to keep up a good mix of both. Now I am in analysis/design, but my real world field experience in the plants, mostly fixing what real smart design engineers with no real world experience screwed up is coming in real handy. I work with a lot of real smart, but young engineers that have never done anything but 'hug a screen' (loved that one Greg). If I hadn't had the real world experience, I'd be too old to be kept employed, but because of it I am asset that is valued and sought out for my opinion. I do my share of 'hugging the screen' too.
rmw
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Well, professors are often wrong. What do you base your calculations and designs on? Do requirements simply fall out of the sky, fully formed? Who allocates requirements to the various subsystems and subassemblies? How do you know that you've fully complied with all the requirements? Who does all that, if not an engineer?
Now, it's true that in many situations, the design engineers "know" what they need to do, but not always, and when they get into trouble with the requirements, they always come running back to the systems engineers, looking for an escape clause, because they didn't bother reading all the requirements and just "designed" without laying all the foundations, assumptions, and conditions.
TTFN
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RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Quote:
A good "practical" engineer, working in a manufacturing or industrial setting, uses his theoretical training as second nature, sometimes without even considering that when making a decision "on the fly", that he has just "analyzed" and/or "designed" something, no less so than if he sat down with calc pad in hand and ran the numbers. Similarly, a good "theoretical" engineer gets his analysis and design tempered properly when he knows from practical experiece what will work in place, and what will not work.
End Quote.
Many many times in my work I have found myself switching from being a Theoretical reasoning engineer to being a Practical reasoning engineer both in my head and to my listeners.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Ha, ha, you'd have fit right in with management at my first employer. They always gave priority to operations, down sizing design office when any cuts came etc. A lot of the production stuff was 'build to print' for the govt.
Until, when they started to run out of things to build, they realized that most of the things they built were things that the Designer Dept had originally designed or at least had design responsibility for and so they started to increase the design office again.
Seems what you're doing is what is variously called Industrial/Production/Manufacturing engineering. Never appealed to me.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Get too carried away with one being more important than the other and things can go awry.
More than once I've had to stop manufacturing engineers from doing something that would have negatively affected the end function of the item.
Likewise, more than once I've asked manufacturing engineers for their input or had them come back to me asking for changes to improve manufacturability.
Of course, if we went back to having truly skilled labor then arguably manufacturing engineering departments could be slashed, so maybe us designers are more important after all
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
This is not to minimize the design function. I have worked with senior engrs who had high reputations in the company and among the customers.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
+1
Where I used to work, the more macho types were definately in ops (well, I was transfered to ops for a week or 2, but my job was design). Fond of expressions like 'running at the cliff' and such, known for the '$10/minute' speech about line downtime. Leading an assembly cell for a day was definitely a charge, gave me an appreciation for the task for sure. I must have done OK, I wasn't teased about it.
Oft repeated here is the 'what to you want to do' question. Answer that and work towards it whenever practical.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
Out on site, the tempo is faster and there is an essential need for an understanding of the fundamentals, but it is not normally as technically demanding.
There are the occasional jobs that are technically demanding where you need to think on the fly to solve emerging problems but in my experience they are not the norm.
I think some experience of both is important.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
For DoD, O&M is where the steady money flow is, and a large amount of the recurring budget. That looks good to the financing field making cost of money go down, and gives a chance for the foot in the door on design and construction. Toughest job I've had is running O&M. When the BSL-3 goes down at 2 AM on Christmas morning, you need to think fast, make decisions fast, and know what you are doing. I found it a lot more stressful than design.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
I'm working for a defense contractor, and was hired into a more running operations function, specifically giving trades instructions and implementing radiological controls since we work with nuclear systems.
I'm content with my role and its potential, but I was just a bit worried it would shut the doors to theoretical positions and have my hard earned undergrad knowledge goto waste. The most math I need to do is adding cost estimates. I guess at the end, its all just business, and thats life.
RE: Operational vs analysis/design engineering
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