Digital Signature and PE Seal
Digital Signature and PE Seal
(OP)
I don't have to stamp things very often since I work for a public utility in Texas. This week I had to write a letter that had to be sealed to a City. The guy that wanted it to give to the City needed it immediately. I usually do the letter, use my embosser stamp and seal several copies and give one to the person that wanted it.
Since there was a rush, I used my ink seal and scanned the letter into a PDF and eMailed the PDF to the guy. I wanted to learn more about the correct procedure and looked in the Texas PE board web page and they allow a digital seal if it is digitally signed. I looked at Adobe professional that I use and there is a digital signature feature although I have never used it.
Sorry for the long explanation, but has anyone used a JPG of their seal in a MS Word letter and done a digital signature? If you have, what steps are needed?
I ran across a place that will sell a rubber stamp and provide a JPG and TIFF of your seal for use on electronic files.
Since there was a rush, I used my ink seal and scanned the letter into a PDF and eMailed the PDF to the guy. I wanted to learn more about the correct procedure and looked in the Texas PE board web page and they allow a digital seal if it is digitally signed. I looked at Adobe professional that I use and there is a digital signature feature although I have never used it.
Sorry for the long explanation, but has anyone used a JPG of their seal in a MS Word letter and done a digital signature? If you have, what steps are needed?
I ran across a place that will sell a rubber stamp and provide a JPG and TIFF of your seal for use on electronic files.
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I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.





RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
That being said, if you have the PDF stamp and signature in your computer, accessible only to you, assigning the "stamping" so no one else, I guess I would say OK as it is in your sole control and had an uncopiable digital "watermark" so to speak, or one that would show up if copied.
However, thinking out loud here, if a "watermark" is not technically feasible, how would you prevent anyone from cutting and pasting your stamp and signature to another document with all the digital tricks now?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I have heard that on AutoCAD drawings that have a block with the PE seal on it, there is a macro that can detect if the drawing has been changed and erase the PE seal block for drawings that are sent to clients.
I like to try out the latest things, but I may stick with my 2" embossed seal which cannot be copied by a scanner or copy machine. Like I said in my original post, I only seal things once every year or 2.
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I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
In Australia the supplier of Standards has their PDF documents set up to expire 48 hours after download. I'm told that certain non MS OS based programs will still allow you to view it.
I don't see that digital signatures would be any different, but I've not had any reason to test it.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
The Adobe encryption algorithm does not meet the encryption standard laid out by some states in their engineering laws. You'll have to check. Also, some government agencies will accept digital signatures and some will not. If they reject and want an embossed seal, not much point in fighting it, even if your state law allows it.
I consider it to be reasonably secure. There are several ways you can do it:
First, if you only want to use Adobe and not one of the third-party validation services (quite expensive), then you have two options. The first is to use their digital signature and then export a validation file to you client. This works like a software certification from a software supplier. When you create a digital signature in Adobe (I also imported a jpg of my seal and signature to go into the digital signature), and then sign the document, Adobe encrypts the document. It can be read by Adobe reader or the full Adobe Acrobat; however, unless there is a validation file resident on the computer that reads it, a "?" will appear in the signature block instead of a green check mark. The question mark means one of two things...either there is no validation file resident on the computer or the file has been changed. Once you transmit a validation file to the person reading it, the ? will change to a check mark as long as the file has not been modified.
Another way to validate is to show the validation code in the digital signature block (it can be shown or hidden). When another person receives the digital file, they can call or email you the validation code and you can verify its authenticity against the file you created and signed.
When you simply scan your signed document or drop a jpg of your signature and seal into a Word document, that obviously does not constitute a digital signature. When I do this, I also provide a note after my signature that states this is an electronic transmission of the signed document provided to expedite the receipt of the information contained therein. A signed/sealed original will be maintained on file and a signed/sealed original will be transmitted separately by mail.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
If someone wants to steal your signature, they can just scan a hardcopy as easily as they could copying something digitally. In many ways, stealing a signature off of a hardcopy is actually easier.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I mainly just analyze our T-Line towers to see if they can handle a cell phone antenna array on top of them. Some Cities in our service area make the cell companies jump through hoops to get a building permit or an electric meter and I have to certify that our tower is strong enough. It seems that everyone want to talk and text on their cell phone, but nobody wants to see any cell towers near them or their property.
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I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
Personally, I won't ever scan in my stamp. If there's a set of plans, I make sure to use my rubber stamp and ink pad. For all letters and reports, I crimp my stamp.
I actually used to work for a company where the Senior PE's signature and stamp were converted into JPEGs, and a few other people used his signature and stamp without his knowledge (I never did, never thought it was right). This stuck in my head, and is the reason I never scan in my stamp to this date for any document, no matter how well the encryption service works.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I try to stay away from the lattice tower fall radius question. For those of you that care, a lattice tower rarely falls like a tree unless someone removes all the bolts that hold the legs to the foundations. They usually crumple upon themselves in an ice storm or a hurricane.
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I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
No ice problem where I live, but plenty of wind problems.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I'm on the Texas gulf coast and we have lots of wind here and very infrequent ice.
You are also correct about some City officials that will make the cell companies jump through hoops and make it very costly to construct a tower.
_____________________________________
I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
It amazes me that we, as engineers, can't seem to understand the simple things like gender, grammar, punctuation, and sense (1st person/third person; passive, etc.).
I join in your pet peeves!!
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
They're and their and there; we're and were; two and to and too
Their saying all the wrong things about Engineers having no since of humor when there blogging on they're WWW Facebook pages. Were going to have to educate the idiots that rite like their thinking they know how two right.
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I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
The rest of them I have a pretty firm grasp on, and if I screw it up it's simply a brain fart...
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I'm married now, so that's a distant memory
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I am going to inspect the area at lunch time.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
That's a great idea/name for a bar!! Let's franchise that one!
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
You guys are a fun group.
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I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
http://rules.sos.state.ga.us/docs/180/12/02.pdf
I think every state is approaching this a little differently nowadays.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
http://www.notarius.com/en/digital_center.html
Supposedly perfect...
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
When I got my first job out of undergrad in the late 90s, the first PE I worked under was doing a residential subdivision design. In order to adhere to recent changes in the local municipal codes, he was required to submit a "preliminary plat" for the subdivision, before he could submit engineering drawings for review. This "preliminary plat" had to show bearings and distances like a "real" plat, and a benchmark, etc, but was pure fantasy based only on available survey information, and not on any sort of field work. No pins were set, it was all just CAD, and subject to change based on the design process. And the municipality required it be submitted by (important) the engineer of record.
He was called down to Macon three years later and put through some sort of Board Tribunal because he stamped it as a PE and wasn't a registered Land Surveyor. Spent the better part of three days trying to explain to them that it was a "preliminary plat," and that a land surveyor wasn't involved because there was nothing to survey. They tried to tell him that it didn't matter, according to their rules. It said "plat" so he violated the law by stamping it. He eventually got off the hook without further board action, but he still lost what could have been billable time to the ordeal.
Now we can argue whether or not Board Rules are enforceable, but I'd rather not run the risk of giving them something to do on a Wednesday through Friday if they end up bored a couple of months from now and get a PDF with my name on it. I'll follow the rules. :)
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
I guess the better point to make would be why make a rule that a)doesn't solve a problem and b)is a burden to us rule-abiding engineers?
By the way, in the states I practice in - an engineer can stamp a plat and so can an RLS.
I guess I can bad mouth your board...
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
:)
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
So someone stealing my seal would have to do it the old fashioned way, with scissors and a scanner.
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Digital Signature and PE Seal
So - I don't use any special method to prevent my stamp from being copied electronically. And, I don't view my stamp as a security measure on a document. Rather, it's simply stating that I am approving the report as a professional engineer as opposed to approving it as a non-engineer.
I treat it different than a notary who notarizes a signature, for example.