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Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

(OP)
I have a project where the removal of two existing Glulam portal frames (Tudor frames) are required to increase open floor area (visibility).    There are 6 frames on the building spanning 49' and with a tributary are of 12'.  
The idea is to cut-off the bottom of the frame (at haunch level) and place a steel beam across with a steel plate and a bolted connection.  The steel beam will be supported by a new HSS at each side of the exisiting adjacent frames, the beam will span 24'.
Is this a good approach?  Do I have to provide more lateral support or diagonal bracing will be sufficient.

I appreciate your comments and suggestions

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

Provide a sketch, please.

BA

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

You need to run a full lateral analysis of the final condition to figure that out... Your detail sounds OK for gravity but you will have need to detail the load path and provide a moment/braced frame to take lateral. You will also need to analyze the stiffness of the existing and new frames if they are all in one line to determine the amount of lateral load each is going to receive.  

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

Those GlueLam portal frames have a significant shear, lateral loading, in the plane of the frame, at the haunch and down at their base.  This must be accounted for in you new support system for those modified existing arches.  It's almost like you would like to put flying buttresses at each end of your existing arch, and in its plane.  Alternatively, you need one hell of a cantilevered moment column out the foundation and up to the cut-off point below the haunch.  And, you want a U shaped shoe, open to the middle of the bldg., to receive these lateral forces from the arch, and for the arch to sit in, at the top of the moment column.

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

I thought the steel beam would take the tension out of the upper arch, but I may have the wrong picture.  That is why a sketch is needed.  The whole concept sounds peculiar to me.

BA

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

I agree with you BA, a sketch would help.  You would think that sketching was a painful endeavor the way they try to avoid it.  Although, a confession from this corner of the world; I don't know how to scan and then turn a sketch into a file to be included with my post.  I don't have anyone here to hold my hand and teach me.  I rather like the sketching program you use which shows up on 1/4" graph paper and allows various colors for your structure and loads, etc.

I think he is talking about the std. GlueLam Tudor arch we see in churches and school gyms, etc.; with straight outside planes for the wall and roof, and tapered column legs with a nicely radiused haunched transition into a tapered roof member, to the ridge.
 

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

(OP)
You are right dhengr, the Tudor frame is for a church.  I will do a sketch later today and post it here.

Thanks

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

dhengr said  "I don't have anyone here to hold my hand and teach me."

Seriously? You are way too smart to not figure out how to scan a sketch, probably the simplest thing you'll ever learn in your career. Ask any kid over 10 in your neighborhood to come show you ;)

Agree with your comment on sketches, I think except for the simplest code interpretation question, it should be mandatory. Maybe a button we can click that says something like "REJECT - PROVIDE SKETCH", once someone gets three of those the post is automatically removed.

No offense to you Estruc, interesting question, but BA and dhengr are relentless on the poorly worded posts and lack of sketches, and rightfully so. We should all be so glad to be in a profession that can be expressed with pretty sketches, what do chemical and electrical engineers do for fun?

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

dhengr,

Actually, I had a computer crash a couple of months ago and lost a number of programs including Bluebeam which is the one you are referring to.  I applied for an update but when they sent it, two of the routines were not permitted by my new antivirus software.  A Bluebeam technician told me that the only thing I could do is to turn off the antivirus while I downloaded and installed my new program.  I declined because I have already gone through hell as a result of the crash.

I then started to look for alternatives.  The one I am looking at now is called PDF-Xchange Viewer.  The version I have is free to download but some features are disabled.  If I like it, I will upgrade to the full version at a cost of about $75 and will be able to do all of the things I used to do on Bluebeam.

In the meantime, I can take a PDF file and draw lines, circles, rectangles dimension lines, text, single and double headed arrows etc. and send a marked up PDF back to Eng-Tips.

But this can all be done without a program if your scanner is capable of putting out a PDF (or JPG) file.  You simply take a PDF, doctor it up by freehand and make a new PDF of the revised document.  I usually file it on the desktop for easy reference where it can be deleted when I am through with it.

Below the Eng-Tips text panel is an option:

...or upload your file to ENGINEERING.com

Simply click on that text and a dialog box comes up asking for the address of your drawing.  Click on "browse" and search for the file.  When you find it, click on "Upload File".  

BA

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

BA,

That type of thing is fairly common as many antivirus will automatically reject everything they dont recognise. See if you can change your settings to accept that particular program before trying again.

Anyway I am still recovering from the revelation that the Tudors had Glulam!

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

A Glulam "Tudor Frame" seems odd to me.  Are you sure you do not have a three hinge Tudor Arch, common in the 60's in church construction?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

(OP)
It is in fact a three hinge Tudor arch
Thanks msquared48 for the clarification

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

I think we need more clarification.

Quote:

There are 6 frames on the building spanning 49' and with a tributary are of 12'.
I take that to mean the arches are spaced at 12', right?

I first thought you were adding a steel beam from end to end of each arch, but that cannot be right as the beams would be spanning 49', not 24' as stated.  

I now believe you are placing the beams at right angles to the arches so that the arch reactions are located 6' from each end of the beam.  If that is true, how will you resist the horizontal reactions from the arches?

Unless I misread your intent, I think the concept is wrong.  If I do misread your intent, provide a sketch.

BA

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

I too am confused on exactly what the steel besmd sre going to support.  Sketch please.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

I may be wrong, but don't think I am confused as to Estruc's intent.  He has 6 frames, wants to remove one or both the legs off two by picking up the vertical load with a beam spanning 24' transverse to the frame.  As others have said, the main issue is how to replace the lateral thrust component.  A better description, in word or picture, is required.

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

If it's Glulam, it must be "Mock Tudor".

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

Hokie:

If that is the intent, the arches framed to will not work without some form of serious strengthening in the order of 150% of the current strength.  These structures were tightly designed for materials as I remember from school,and under several load conditions, mostly graphically.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: Removal of Glulam Tudor frame

(OP)
Hokie66 is right.
I had some issues with my scanner but I will have the sketch ready tomorrow.
Thanks to all for the advice

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