Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
(OP)
I am employed by a company that designs and manufactures very specialized automated equipment used in the nuclear radiation research arena. I have worked with the company for several years and just this past year, obtained my P.E. license. All of the design engineers with the company (including my supervisor, the "Engineering Manager") are not P.E.'s but due to the industrial exemption, they maintain the title engineer. I as a staff engineer, am the only registered P.E.
My primary job responsibility involves designing systems that, unlike bridges, roads, HVAC systems, etc., do not require the stamp of a registered P.E. Consequently, I do not stamp my designs and have not been asked to do so...yet.
I understand that I have a legal and ethical obligation to provide notice of my status as a P.E. to those with whom I do business. Thus far, I have attempted to meet this obligation by adding the "P.E." designation to my business card and displaying a P.E. wall certificate.
My first question is this: what obligation, if any, do I have to provide notice that I am a P.E. on my design drawings? These drawings are primarily for our in-house manufacturing department's use. Occasionally, though I create drawings that are sent to our customers detailing room layouts of our equipment. Am I obligated to stamp any of these?
My second question is this: As a P.E. employed by a automated equipment design/build company and currently supervised by a non-P.E. are there any special considerations that I bear in mind related to liability, insurance and professional practice in general? I am considering asking my employer to enter into a defend, indemnify, hold-harmless agreement with me. Does anyone out there done something like this with a non-P.E. boss/employer?
I am fully aware that as a licensed, professional engineer, I have a duty to meet a certain "standard of care which is "that level of care that would be exercised by any prudent professional engineer under such circumstances." I also recognize that my supervisor who is not a P.E. but is a "darn good" engineer whom I have learned much from over the past couple of years has a standard of care that must be met, whether he is consciously aware of it or not. What I am trying to get a better handle on is the degree to which my standard of care differs from his, if at all, and if there is a difference, what sort of agreements should be in place to protect myself in the event of a law suit. Also, given my status as a "professional" would such an agreement hold up in court?
Under the legal doctrine of "respondeat superior" the employer is generally responsible and liable for the actions of employees performed within the course of their employment. All of my design work is generally approved by my supervisor, but my name is listed as the designer. As such, I am simply an "agent" of my employer. However, even though I am not stamping my work, my name is on the line due to my being licensed by the state and given the fact that I signed a statement agreeing to maintain the highest ethical and technical standards in keeping with the practice of professional engineer.
Any thoughts....?
My primary job responsibility involves designing systems that, unlike bridges, roads, HVAC systems, etc., do not require the stamp of a registered P.E. Consequently, I do not stamp my designs and have not been asked to do so...yet.
I understand that I have a legal and ethical obligation to provide notice of my status as a P.E. to those with whom I do business. Thus far, I have attempted to meet this obligation by adding the "P.E." designation to my business card and displaying a P.E. wall certificate.
My first question is this: what obligation, if any, do I have to provide notice that I am a P.E. on my design drawings? These drawings are primarily for our in-house manufacturing department's use. Occasionally, though I create drawings that are sent to our customers detailing room layouts of our equipment. Am I obligated to stamp any of these?
My second question is this: As a P.E. employed by a automated equipment design/build company and currently supervised by a non-P.E. are there any special considerations that I bear in mind related to liability, insurance and professional practice in general? I am considering asking my employer to enter into a defend, indemnify, hold-harmless agreement with me. Does anyone out there done something like this with a non-P.E. boss/employer?
I am fully aware that as a licensed, professional engineer, I have a duty to meet a certain "standard of care which is "that level of care that would be exercised by any prudent professional engineer under such circumstances." I also recognize that my supervisor who is not a P.E. but is a "darn good" engineer whom I have learned much from over the past couple of years has a standard of care that must be met, whether he is consciously aware of it or not. What I am trying to get a better handle on is the degree to which my standard of care differs from his, if at all, and if there is a difference, what sort of agreements should be in place to protect myself in the event of a law suit. Also, given my status as a "professional" would such an agreement hold up in court?
Under the legal doctrine of "respondeat superior" the employer is generally responsible and liable for the actions of employees performed within the course of their employment. All of my design work is generally approved by my supervisor, but my name is listed as the designer. As such, I am simply an "agent" of my employer. However, even though I am not stamping my work, my name is on the line due to my being licensed by the state and given the fact that I signed a statement agreeing to maintain the highest ethical and technical standards in keeping with the practice of professional engineer.
Any thoughts....?





RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
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RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
My question really is more related to narrower question of whether there are any "legal" distinctions that could be made arising from the fact that one is a state licensed professional and the other insn't. In other words, does the legal distinction made between licensed and non-licensed "engineers" necessarily result in the existence of different "reasonable standard of care" such that a licensed engineer while under the employment of a non-licensed engineer has a higher level of liability exposure than were he working for a licensed engineer doing the same type of work? If the answer is "yes", is there an agreement that I should enter into with my employer that will help to mitigate this elevated level of liability exposure I experience right now?
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
As I understand it, which isn't particularly well in your case, the person liable is the person in "responsible charge" of the design. Typically in civil that's El-Stampareno. My guess is that without stamping something you're no more in "responsible charge" of the documents than anyone else in your company. But I don't really know because you're in that "Non-Civil-Engineer/Who-Cares-About-PEs" world, in which I have little experience. If I were in charge of the universe, I'd force your boss to get his PE and highly recommend your company pay for professional liability insurance.
My first stab at advice is to either A) draw up a contract that explicitly names your boss as the person in responsible charge of the documents, or B) tell your company to name you on their professional liability policy, presuming they have one. And if they don't, tell them to get one.
Better advice, though, is wait for Ron to chime in. Love that guy.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
If you do not stamp a drawing then there is no "professional" liability, just the normal engineering type of liability.
I originally got my P.E. while working at an industrial exempt job. I got it for the distinction of having a P.E. and possibly furthering my career.
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
benzflieger...you seem to have an excellent understanding of professional responsibility and a good handle on the industrial exemption. One thing to keep in mind is that when you become a licensed engineer, your responsibilities generally change from being contractually driven to being driven by statute. Your licensed engineer status becomes your lightning rod that others in your company do not have.
As an example....your company builds something that fails. Two engineers, you and an unlicensed engineer, shared all the design responsibilities. The lawyers find this out and sue the company. They name you and the other engineer as co-defendants. He has no statutory obligation to anyone. You do. Without regard to whether your signed or sealed anything, you practiced engineering. Now you have a statutory obligation that the other engineer does not have. The lawyers see that they have no leverage against him (and won't pursue him), but they know they have leverage against you and will use it to their advantage. Will it hold up in court? Who knows, but you have to defend it without regard to its ultimate validity. Could your attorney argue that you were practicing under an industry exemption...of course...would it work...maybe, maybe not....but more importantly, who wants to find out?
Since you are licensed and the others are not, I would certainly ask the company for an indemnification of your practice. This might cause some difficulty for you, but if they plan to market your license status or use it in any way, they should do that for you. You should also be a named insured on their insurance policies.
Lastly, you might consider putting a disclaimer on all drawings, something to the effect of: This design was produced for the manufacturing purposes of this company and does not constitute the statutory practice of engineering for the public in this or any other state.
This is just a "layman's" perspective on the wording...you might want to run that by your company's lawyers.
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
I do think I am going to ask for a hold-harmless agreement at a minimum. I may ask to be named on the company liability insurance policy but may have a harder time getting this one done.
Next week, we have performance reviews and so I wanted to discuss these issues with my supervisor and the company owner then. However, just to get a feel for what the response might be during the actual review I mentioned my concerns to my supervisor, the engineering manager late last night. Fairly quickly, he seemed to see things from my point of view and thought that the owner would likely be receptive to the idea of drawing up an indemnify, hold-harmless agreement.
I'll have to wait until the review to know for sure, but at this point feel pretty good about bringing it up with the big boss. I'll report back...
Thanks again.
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
1. NEVER stamp/seal anything that you do as an employee of a producing (as opposed to consulting) company.
2. If a question comes up, see number 1.
3. If I ignored his advice, and stamped something that I did for the company then the company was prevented by law from representing me if I was sued. They were also prevented by law from paying any settlement (to the point that if I was sued, and lost they couldn't even pay me any bonuses that I might normally have gotten for several years to make sure that it didn't "look like" they were paying my settlement).
4. If I kept my stamp to myself, then even if I was de facto in responsible charge of a project, the company could represent me, could pay any legal fees, fines, settlements, etc.
5. The company would not under any circumstances give me a new employment contract with hold harmless or indemnity language because that would be against the law.
In short, you are only "holding yourself out to the public" as an engineer if you are in responsible charge and stamp/seal documents and drawings. If you do that, then the company (and any industrial exemption) cannot protect you. If you ever go out on your own, then get insurance and stamp with abandon. Until then keep you stamp an a safety deposit box.
And always, follow the advice in my signature.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
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RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
Their insurance did not cover any actions I might take as a PE.
Not totally analogous to your situation, I realize, but similar enough that the question needs to be asked about insurance coverage for errors & omissions.
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
We're not as far apart as you think! Your advice, as always, is excellent. It comes from direct, relevant experience which is always better. Now the slight disagreement....a licensed engineer cannot disavow either his license or knowledge of the law under which he is licensed. For that reason alone, an attorney will try to suck him into the fray because he is licensed. I doubt they would be successful as I'm sure he could always support the exempt position; however, just being invited to the party is a pain in the a$$ and costs money...that's the reason I would want some indemnification or some written assurance that the company would defend me, licensed or not.
I agree wholeheartedly with your signature advice, but geez...we sure do like to bat these things around in here!
Ron
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
All engineers have an obligation to public safety. No exception, and the 8 hours in a PE test doesn't change that. What it does change is you ability to "stand alone". With a PE, my signature and stamp establish a clear line of responsibility from the project to me, and the company I'm working for cannot support me in the defense of that line of responsibility (which is why someone better have insurance before the stamp something). On the other hand, if I have a PE and even if I am in responsible charge of a project if I don't stamp it, the line of responsibility goes from the project to the COMPANY and if someone sees I'm a PE and names me explicitly in a suit, if I didn't stamp anything then the company has the legal right and obligation to defend the suit naming me. If I stamped something then the company is banned from defending me. Difference seems subtle, but it is $20k/year worth of insurance for my business.
David
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
I agree...it's just that the company can also say "screw you"....you're named separately so it's your ticket...that's what needs to be prevented in writing...nothing more, nothing less.
Ron
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
David
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
David
RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
At most companies that I've been at, "employees" of a company do not stamp. I do not stamp, even though I have a stamp. Once the package/drawings are done, reviewed, signed off, etc, we go to designated "stamper" and "permit holder" for them to stamp with their P Eng and Permit to Practice stamps and sign.
I have not heard of a company putting regular employees on their insurance - that is usually reserved for officers and permit/stamp holders for the company.
On the earlier point of how to identify yourself as a professional engineer, usuall a PE or P. Eng after your name will suffice.
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RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability
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RE: Standard of Care, Non-P.E. Employer, & Liability