Culture at Structural Firms
Culture at Structural Firms
(OP)
I'm getting ready to begin a pretty intensive job search (I'm still employed, just looking for something that gives me more time at home and compensates me more appropriately). One of my biggest concerns about leaving is the potential for a culture shock at a new firm. By culture shock, I mean corporate culture. Right now I have a lot of autonomy - I (for the most part) decide what I want to work on and when as long as the work gets done. I don't have anyone breathing down my neck asking about getting stuff done. My colleagues and boss value my opinions and will always (maybe usually) acknowledge if I have a valid point when we disagree. My boss is a pretty happy, easy-going guy (though his expectations are very high) and I recognize that personal life and circumstances can easily sway the tide as to whether someone is a good or bad (read overbearing) boss.
We also have an extensive library, top notch computer systems, lots of software, continuing education, and we get to work on some pretty prestigious projects with world class architects. The down side is I don't feel properly compensated (this goes up exponentially when I think about all the "free" hours I've given working 55-60 hours/week). We haven't had raises in two years (coming up on three years very soon) and we just recently got back a 7% pay cut. What this means is that I have almost 5 years of experience (will have my PE shortly) and I'm making in the low-mid 50's. This seens ridiculous, in my opinion.
What I'd like to hear about from the structural guys out there is what is the culture at your firm like. Do you have bosses popping in every day (or multiple times a day) to see what you're doing or if you're "finished yet"? How many hours do you typically work in a week? Does your company provide good computers and software? Do you make a fair salary? Are you required to stamp anything or is that only for the principals? Also, was the impression you got of your firm during the interview process indicative of the reality now that you're working there?
I'm really just trying to get a sense of what other structural firms out there are like.
We also have an extensive library, top notch computer systems, lots of software, continuing education, and we get to work on some pretty prestigious projects with world class architects. The down side is I don't feel properly compensated (this goes up exponentially when I think about all the "free" hours I've given working 55-60 hours/week). We haven't had raises in two years (coming up on three years very soon) and we just recently got back a 7% pay cut. What this means is that I have almost 5 years of experience (will have my PE shortly) and I'm making in the low-mid 50's. This seens ridiculous, in my opinion.
What I'd like to hear about from the structural guys out there is what is the culture at your firm like. Do you have bosses popping in every day (or multiple times a day) to see what you're doing or if you're "finished yet"? How many hours do you typically work in a week? Does your company provide good computers and software? Do you make a fair salary? Are you required to stamp anything or is that only for the principals? Also, was the impression you got of your firm during the interview process indicative of the reality now that you're working there?
I'm really just trying to get a sense of what other structural firms out there are like.





RE: Culture at Structural Firms
As you did, I just sat for the PE also. I think what you are making is pretty close to the norm for the consulting industry, maybe a little low but not terrible. I recently went from the consulting industry to the power generating industry and got a 40% raise.
The consulting firm I left in August paid mid to upper 50's, with strait time pay past 40hrs. I was the highest paid non licensed engineer when I left. A friend of mine got his PE in the spring, and is makeing about 50, without any OT pay.
I do make much more now, however, I feel that I am going to be pushing more papers than designing now. And when I asked what computer programs they had, the response was we have mathcad.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
However, my firm is one of the few that pays well for its employees in trying to retain good talent and stave off the competition (Jacobs, URS, etc.) from attracting them away.
Some the surrounding communities don't pay as much for EIT's (40k to 50k), but I do know that pay goes up considerably for PE's.
Again though, in the New Orleans area the oilfield helps to boost the pay scale. From what I understand Houston pays about 20% more than the New Orleans area.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Just a question about the petrochemical work. Are there periods of time where one is off-shore? If so, I would think that they would offer more money due to the inconvience of being isolated in the ocean for 1-2 months at a time. Also, isn't there a lot of 12hr shifts working in the petrochemical field?
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
There are also several chemical plants where engineers in this area could find work at the roughly the same pay scale. Again though, several factors affect your pay (experience, work resposibility, etc.) and I am in no capacity whatsoever to be the pay scale expert for all jobs engineering in this area. I can only pass on what I know from talking with some of my peers in the industry.
A good source of information is Glassdoor.com. I've looked up a few companies in my area and it seems to be fairly spot on seeing on how the information is submitted by the workers themselves and not some overall "survey".
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
The five-year mark is when a lot of engineers start checking their "value" to the company against their salary. I know I did and I've seen it numerous times. Sometimes in the consulting world, the only way to get a decent raise is to change jobs.
Indulge me for a minute here with a war story....At 5 years with my first engineering firm, I was getting antsy. They offered me a 5 percent raise for passing my PE. I wasn't particularly happy there, so looked elsewhere and got an offer of over 10 percent increase and a relocation bonus. I accepted. Old firm countered with almost 20 percent. My response was "Why wasn't I worth that yesterday?" I left.
In my career with engineering firms (not my own), I've been given two pay increases that I didn't ask for. All others I had to ask, cajole, negotiate or leave to get.
It sounds like you work for a pretty good firm in most respects. I know of consulting firms that do not give increases except on rare occasions. That's not right and I can't imagine why anyone would stay...but many do.
It sounds as though they respect your work. I know that most of the forum community here respects your technical opinions, so I can see why they would want you around. I think it's time for you to have a strong, clear, and pointed conversation with your principals. They probably know what they have, will give you excuses for not having bumped you already, but will understand from the clarity and seriousness of your conversation with them that its time for them to step up...tell them that you enjoy your work, you enjoy the company, but you're feeling a "put upon" by their lack of financial recognition of what you do. Don't get indignant, don't overstate your worth, don't try to "hold them up for ransom". Use the same approach to preparing for your meeting with them that you use for solving a technical problem...it will serve you well.
Good luck.
Ron
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
That said, try not to get too hung up on the money. A good working environment has value to most people. Pay raises are only short-term motivators for poor working conditions. Sometimes companies can take care of you in ways you don't expect, or even see. Large consulting firms often have little flexibility in what they can provide for you.
This is probably a good time to look around: You currently have a good job and you may be able learn the going rate in your area. Then you can decide exactly how much your working conditions are worth.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Agree with Ron that mid 50's is low. Being a single man shop, all I could comment on were my experiences of 25 and more years ago which will do you no good now.
Good luck in your search.
P.S.
Before I read the answers, I was going to say that the only "culture" I found in engineering firms was in the firm's refrigerator. Then I decided not to post that.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I'm in Texas and it seems to me that it is low.. I'm very close to 60k, rarely over 40 hrs. per week and I haven't sat for the PE yet. Additionally, when times were good, profit sharing was great.
I think the not having received a pay raise in 3 years doesn't seem unreasonable, given the state of affairs.
However, as others have mentioned, judging from your lucid, well-informed answers on many of these threads, I'd say you are undercompensated.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
65 person firm with about 45% Structural, 45% Civil, and 10% Architectural (we kepth them in the closet).
Good leadership as the firm was started just after the turn of the century - tons of "old" experience. The leadership treated everyone like family. Some level of corporate structure but decisions were always kept real and person-to-person (vs. memo). Good clients, good rep, good projects. When I resigned (to move closer to family) the president suggested it was like loosing a son (it was real hard to hear that).
160 person firm in another city - three offices in different cities - one large and the other two smaller. Multi-disciplined A/E firm that had a corporate culture similar to a 1000 person firm. Run by both architects and engineers fairly balanced. Fair projects but nothing big. Structural department managed themselves fairly independently but the head did have to answer to the Operations VP. Not much say overall in the company but a well run firm with good track record.
15 person firm - structural only. Complete autonomy - but also completely up to you to market, keep clients happy, hire and fire, etc. Limited resources and moderately sized projects. The quality of working for outside architects highly dependent upon the quality of the architect, both ethically and technically.
Of the three - the small firm has been happiest, the old Structural/Civil firm a close second.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I've never really worked with world-class architects or on world-class projects. Occasionally I'll get to work on something interesting. I do have a lot of autonomy. Nobody is ever breathing down my neck, I get a lot of flexibility about working hours. There is a lot of professional development.
Having said that, however, I really love what I do and I like the company. I also like the branch manager. The times I have had the opportunity to work on interesting projects I have taken the time to learn what I need.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Yes, and I don't see the problem with that. My bosses and I communicate on a regular basis. I should note that I work for a small firm and I am usually juggling multiple projects of various magnitudes. They need keep me abreast of what is top priority, recent client interaction, etc.
45-50 hours a week, but I get paid an hourly rate, so I welcome any additional hours.
Yes, especially for small firm.
I'm a year or two away from my PE, so I am not yet sure how that will work once I am licensed.
Yes, no misrepresentations I can think of.
Who dictates how many hours of overtime you are required to put in? Have there been significant Xmas bonuses' to offset the large amount of unpaid overtime hours? If not, then the situation you are describing is very undesirable to me. Think of the effective rate they are paying you - it is less than a teacher's starting salary. I don't care how much I like the job, the prestigious projects, the resources, etc - if the compensation is terrible, I'm not sure how I could arrive each day with a positive attitude.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
He's working 55-60 hours a week!! It sounds like the state of affairs is in good standing. I'd want explanation on why I received a pay cut while putting in so much overtime.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I worked in a shipyard with 25000 people. Though we built for clients, usually the US govt, we did engineering essentially for ourselves. I became a cog. I did nothing special, got virtually the same percentage raise as anyone else regardless of performance. Not a bad place to work but would have done the same things just on different ships. Did some OT and got paid straight time.
I love the company that I work for now because it meets my priorities. There are a couple hundred employees but still family owned. The owner really cares for his workers. Though we have had layoffs in previous years, I know that it pains the company to do so. They will hold on to employees for far longer than the large firms. By the way, during the recent bad years, they only let go about 5 people or so. Right now, we have a lot of work. Once I picked up on some of my worse qualities and picked up on what the bosses want, I have been regularly rewarded with pay raises. OT is paid straight time. The company says that vacation time is YOUR time and gives you little flack about taking it. Currently, the work we do has deadlines that can be forseen.
My point is that there are a variety of places. Note that even though you may be a structural engineer and feel that you can do engineering anywhere, some industries just pay more. Working for a company that does public works, small pay. Petrochemical industry, high pay. If you work for a Shell or an Exxon, you will work your @ss off and get paid straight time only at a high salary. You are expected to get the job done.
Are you underpaid, I'm not sure. Where I work, we do a wide variety of work so we get paid moderately. We bill differently whether we do a pump station or an offshore platform. If we did only offshore platforms, we'd likely get paid more, but would be out the door next time oil drops below $40/barrel.
We get continuing ed paid, good software, good computers.
It sounds like you are asking the right questions. I don't know how you avoid working for a bad boss because I would think that most people are on their best behavior during an interview. I believe that you will be able to find a place that meets your needs.
On another matter, watch how much you say on this thread and others. If I worked for your company, I might be able to pick you out or at least suspect. Watch how much you say on this forum in case you decide to stay put.
Good luck.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Because of the hours you are working I would ask for a raise, as others have suggested.
Also, once you are officially licened here is what I would do. I would bust my butt to be the lead engineer on a couple of projects that would look excellent on a resume. Just annoy your boss until he lets you be the lead on some big projects with these well known architects. After a few projects and a few years, you will have a heck of a resume. This will get you much further in the long run than leaving now.
Where I used to work was a small firm. 60 people. 7 structural, 2 architects, about 20 civils, about 10 surveyors and about 20 technitions and admins. I really liked my group. My boss would bury me to challange me, and help me out when ever I needed. I did not like the president though, he acted like he ran a firm of 1000 people. We would get a new memo on our desk every other day about how he changed some rule or policy.
I worked about 50hrs a week (and got strait time past 40 hr). Had good computers and softwars. The firm encouraged the engineers to stamp own work so they would take "ownership" of their work. But I do not think that they would make anyone stamp anything (I am sure that if one was refusing to stamp their work, that issue would be considered during raise time). The only misrepresentation during the interview was that the president said that I would be working a max of 45 hrs a week. And I already went into my opinion about the president so I will not discuss that further.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I think you are low, or at least slightly below average. But like Trackfiend said (good post), depends on your industry and location - I have friends in petro/chem in Houston and the Gulf area and he is spot-on about the salary ranges in those areas. And sounds like asking for a raise is not likely, since you've just had salary cuts.
Here's my personal experience on the whole salary/work culture balance....
Twice in my career I changed jobs strictly for money. Both times I was VERY HAPPY where I was, but VERY under-paid. The employers held very longterm multiple year contracts, locked-in job security almost unbelieveable by today's standards. The employers cared about professional growth, nurtured a teaming environment, and expected the highest quality and integrity standards from everyone. Great mutual respect between Project Managment, design disciplines, and client. But the nature of the contracts with the clients hemmed in the salary ranges, and the increases allotted per the contract each year did not keep up with cost of living, or the local market.
When I moved, the pay increases were incredible - like 50%-60%....
And I was freakin' miserable! Horrible projects. Unreasonable clientele. Ineffective leadership/management. No teaming culture, and actually a purposely maintained culture of antagonism between the disciplines and Project Management. Blatant disreguard to local laws/regulations for stamping design work (I'm a P.E.). On several occasions, I was asked to stamp work outside of my discipline , or work I had no control or knowledge (I refused everytime I was asked on the basis of ethics). Always worried because my neck was on the chopping block (especially after refusing to "rubber-stamp" work)....
...But hey, I made a lot of money... at a time when I needed it....
Both times I switched back as soon as I could. Each time I took a CUT in pay to get back where I was.
Hate to make this a "What's more important, money or happiness?" cliche - it is part of it. But there is something else to consider here - if you decide to leave, be VERY, VERY careful during your job search. Scrutinize them. Very hard. Get a good idea of there business ethics. Ask THEM for references. There ARE companies out there that are great places to work AND pay a lot. Be patient, and search hard. Treat your move as a BIG STEP, because it is.
I found the place that (I hope - a lot of uncertainty in the world these days) is my last stop. It has everything I look for in an employer, inline with my values, ethics, and expectations (that includes a FAIR and REASONABLE salary). If they ever cut or freeze my salary, I'll keep this job, and moonlight somewhere else - maybe in another profession/skill - before moving just for money. Always wanted to tend a bar! LOL! :)
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I've also worked for one of the larger engineering firms in the world (over 4000 employees at one point) and for a smaller, regional firm (500 employees).
In the larger firm, I went from young staff engineer, almost right out of school (had 18 months in manufacturing structural design of water and wastewater treatment systems) to eventually becoming a VP and Senior Technical Principal. It was not without strife! I did not like the corporate structure and it got worse as the company became run by bean counters and the engineering (which got them where they were by reputation and profitability) became secondary to "the business of being a business". I didn't learn to bite my tongue and let the corporate structure alone. I was vocal in my dislike for the way the engineering disciplines were being commoditized within the corporation. Eventually I decided to leave...they would have probably fired me at some point, but I was fortunate enough to produce profit for them, so they tolerated me longer than I thought they would! Anyway, the reason I left was because of a corporate culture that I couldn't abide.
The regional firm was better, but partly because my relative position was higher and I reported directly to the president and the board of directors. The president was excellent to work with...the board of directors...not so much. I left and started my own firm (2nd one) and I've been doing that for the past 5+ years.
I guess my problem is that I don't like senseless authority and prefer to be a technical person with a lot of autonomy. Typical engineer, huh?
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
On the money, man!
That's one of the things I love about where I'm at. I have only 4.5 years of experience, but have a great deal of autonomy. There are NEVER any intra-office politics. No one tries to take credit for work that someone else does (even in the course of conversation, people generally give credit to the appropriate individual for ideas or issues that were discovered). It's a nice way to work.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Having said that, in a typical consulting firm your salary is somewhat tied to the company's charge out rate. Right now, you're at the designer level. Having a PE is key as your charge out rate will go up. When you get your PE and ready to ask for a raise, find out first your company's charge out rates so you have an idea how high you can go.
Owners won't tell you this but it is the reality in the consulting industry. If the multiplier isn't there, the company can't really make money off you no matter how good you are as an engineer.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
It sounds like you work at a really great company in terms of the projects/clients and the office culture. It would be hard for most to pass that up.
I'd say if things pick up and you don't get a healthy raise, maybe then you should look around...
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
At 5 years experience I was at 70k + stock option + ~6k bonus. That was only two years ago before my masters in the low cost of living midwest.
I think you're getting taken big time. You need to pack ship and move out of the area if you cant find better. You're sacrificing your retirement making that little.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
my base salary is 100k+ per year. i also get paid OT.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
That being said, I now feel reaffirmed with my choice of employers. I live in Southern California and like SEIT have 5 years of experience and I just took the PE. I work for a small structural firm, owner (PE), 2 other EIT's, myself and another and a drafter. My pay is hourly, no OT, low, low 50's and I work no more then 40hrs a week. I wear shorts and flip flops to work, but when required I do dress nicer for clients. Rather flexible schedule so I can surf in the morning and there is a shower at work, so I can shower right after I get out of the water.
I have worked there for 3 years and have had 2 raises, obviously none in the past year. We are busy, with custom residential but the work comes in waves. Really busy for 3-4 weeks, then there is a lull for 2 or so weeks.
Not sure if I will get a raise once I get my PE, due to high overhead and with the current market clients can demand lower rates because others are charging less just to get the jobs.
I have looked for other employment but there is none within reasonable driving distance, and I am unwilling to commute more then 1 hour each way. To me it is more important to spend my time how I want to, instead of "wasting" small portions of my life sitting in a car to and from work.
I have grown to accept this and the pay, or lack of, that comes with this freedom. I now realize that the only way that I will ever make more money is to venture out on my own once I get my PE. I am fine with this, because right now I run all of my own projects at work and the owner rarely reviews the final projects. I try and force him to review them, to catch any errors but he just doesn't have the time. I am fairly confident but if there is something that I am not sure about he is always willing to step in.
Ultimately it comes down to your priorities.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
In my office (NYC) the entry level salary is about $60K. Peole with 10-15 years can get $100K. From working with an office in your area for many years, I know there's about a 10% difference in salaries. Based on what engineers with similar experience in my office get, I think you're underpaid. BTW - None of them are in your league. If you're going to sit down with the boss, keep in mind, money isn't about what you've done for them, it's about what you will do for them. Also, if you quit, another thing to keep in mind: Never take the counter offer because in six months the factors that made you quit will reappear.
Young engineers in my office won't work a minute of overtime (which is paid at straight time). I think that comes with the times. They and their parents are further removed from those who lived through the Depression. When I was young, my first boss said never turn down overtime. Unfortunately now, I'm working 50-55 hours/week but only getting paid 40.
Office Culture? Corporate culture? I agree with Mike, it's in the refrigerator, the microwave, the toaster oven. To paraphrase Tip O'Neill, "All culture is local." I've worked in design, construction, small companies, medium, large, and currently an extremely large company (as the result of numerous mergers & acquisitions over the past 20+ years.)It's you and the people around you who make the culture.
What I've found is that in a smaller company/office there's a shared sense of common purpose. As the company/office gets bigger things change. Where I work, the benefits are good, the company supports continuing education, we have software, bagels, blah, blah, blah but as privateer pointed out there's antagonism between deparments and project management. That's because utilization has replaced common purpose. If you have to screw another department so be it. Even within my department there's something missing; we're not one group. If you go out for an interview try to get a feel for how your potential co-workers interact with each other.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Could you cut down your work week to 40 hrs, and buy your own bagels...?
tg
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
You are certainly worth more to your employer as a P.E. You need to ask for a raise as soon as you earn your P.E. status.
As someone already mentioned (to lazy to scroll up to find who said it to give proper credit, sorry..), learn how your company charges your services to clients. That's GREAT advice!! Find out the rates, and the brackets for each rate (like associate/E.I., P.E., Lead, PM, whatever..). Find out how YOU fit in with all this NOW. Then extrapolate where you would be with your P.E.
Your employer can charge you out to clients at a higher rate bracket as a P.E. But here's the thing, your salary as a new cert'ed P.E. is less than someone with say 10 years, the company is making more money for your serves than a more senior P.E. in the same rate backet. A smart project/office manager would know how to assign the right projects to you based on complexity, experience level, etc. to maximize this profit margin based on productivity for your expertise level. But even better margins if you take on more challenging projects equal with that 10 yr P.E. The client may not review your resume for every task assigned - the client just knows he's getting a P.E., not how many years of experience you have (and may not care..).
...Ok, I might be getting a little off topic, so I'll start reeling myself back in and tie into the topic. I'm guessing you work at one of the "great company culture but low pay" places. If that's the case then I would also assume there is a positive culture of communication between employees and management. So, use this to your advantage - communicate your expectations to your management, make them aware that you understand their expectations in you, and (armed with your research) show them how your raise/advancement could be of mutual benefit to both you and the company.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
It seems like most firms have reasonable working conditions, so that makes me feel a little better about looking when I do. At my last review, my boss said the company just isn't in a position to give raises yet, so I doubt I'll see anything when I get my PE results. The statement about not being able to give raises is disconcerting given the number of "free" hours they get from me and others.
I know there's a lot more than salary to consider, but it is a factor. I often think that it's better to work for less dpi g something you enjoy, but I don't think that doing something you enjoy is a valid reason for an employer to lowball salaries. I'm not good at dealing with these kinds of issues (difficult issues of a personal nature, which, in my opinion, salary is) - I have no problems speaking my mind about technical issues and diagreements there, but the personal issues are another thing for me.
I think I've said this before, but I think my part of my company's philosophy is to hire fresh grads and keep them, thereby keeping salaries low. Every engineer in our office has been with the company since graduating college with the exception of one who started 1 year after graduating (1 year with another company). It seems to work for them and few leave. It's not good for our salaries, though.
As far as my boss popping in, I don't mind it and I communicate with my boss daily, I just don't want someone breathig down my neck asking if I'm done every ten minutes. I'm a professional, I know what I need to do, and I'll get it done on time.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I have never understood people who do this. Now, salaried is a different thing, but then again those people are usually compensated a little better then hourly. Don't get me wrong, I am all for working hard and getting the job done, but there is no way that I am going to work for free just so some rich a-hole can have his custom home or building built within budget.
Now again, I am speaking with respect to an employee/employer relationship, not a sole proprietor.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
As far as bonuses go - we used to get a modest bonus, but that the way of the raise 2 years ago. I'm not expecting one this year either, and that is the hardest to swallow given that I've given easily 400 hours for free in the last 6 months - probably more.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I do believe that I'm definitely one of the best engineers in our office, from a technical standpoint. That being said, it's probably hard to get a sense of one's technical aptitude in an interview when most engineers are perfectly competent - so I won't stand out there. It seems like (and makes sense to methat) the project management is what people want to see.
Now that I should be down to 50 hours or less for a little while 'til shops for this large project start rolling in, I'm going to dive pretty hard into Revit in the hopes that will bolster my resume.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
You are a typical engineer with respect to the personal issues:
. Most good technical people abhor these conversations and either grossly undervalue themselves (most often) or grossly overvalue themselves (that happens, too). The middle ground seems to have to come from the management side, which will usually side with the lower valuation because it costs them less. It isn't often that you hear your manager say "SEIT...you're a terrific engineer...we're giving you a 10 percent salary increase effective now". You have to ask.
As for the free hours....that argument gets thrown about in the forums routinely. I've never worked on an hourly basis except when working alone. I've always been on salary and always gave more than 40 hours. That was our culture and it was a matter of pride, competition and accomplishment. I think I was ultimately rewarded...sometimes tangibly, sometimes intangibly...both can be important. One pays the bills....the other builds your reputation and competence. Don't fret about "free" time. You'll always give it because of your diligence. Others never will because of their obstinance. Somehow, diligence seems to be better, at least in my opinion.
Good luck. Maybe you should consider looking elsewhere, but have that tough conversation with your boss...at the least it will give you practice in doing that so the next time it won't be so hard!
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Anyway, it just dawned on me (as I'm developing plans this morning), that they'd much rather take 15 hours over 40 from me than give me 2 hours under 40.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Always the case!!
I'll bet you feel guilty when you take a little personal time or a long lunch, too!
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Are the other employees in your firm putting in similar amounts of overtime, while maintaining good spirits? It's hard to imagine others not being frustrated if they are putting in 15-20 free hours each week. I understand the philosophy behind salaried employees, but the excessive overtime is usually compensated with generous profit-sharing, and profits are made public to the entire firm on regular basis, so you what to expect at the end of the year.
Do they report profitability at all? I'm suspect that the firm may actually be doing quite well, but they are hiding that under guise of the poor overall state of this country's economy. You would know better than any of us, but they may be taking advantage of an unfortunate situation, which is a pretty poor philosophy.
I've learned early on in my career that you have speak up when you feel your compensation is inadequate. It helps to bolster your argument with relevant salary data and some good talking points that vouch for the value you bring to the firm. You may be surprised to find out how far they are willing to go to keep you. We all know your technical skills are superb. I'm sure your bosses have taken notice.
However, you may find the easiest way to get adequate compensation is to find another job. I understand that you love all the other aspects of your current job, but based on what you have described, I'd have some serious concerns about long-term treatment and management philosophy.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Lunch? What's that? Seriously, though, I haven't taken linger than a 15 minute lunch (often none at all) in 6-9 months.
Abusementpark-
The closest we ever get to any financial disclosure is a generic statement during periodic company updates that we're "in a strong financial position". I believe it because I know what they're paying people.
I know that one guy has been putting in more time than I have for the last several months and at least two others have been putting in comparable time. No one complains (out loud, anyway). The company realy does foster the "WHATEVER it takes to get the job done" philosophy. It always makes me wonder why no one leaves. They're quick to get rid of sub-par engineers and often make it known (to us and to clients) that they only hire the best and brightest, but supply mediocre (at best) salaries. I honestly thought (a year or two in) that at this point in my career (5th review with a PE) I'd be getting bumped to mid 60's. I'm 20% below that!
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I'm calling you out, time for you to harden up, stop being a diligent engineer and start being a diligent engineer that can talk hard with his boss. If the boss is considering promoting you, this will be a good sign for him, as he will want you to be able to talk hard money with his clients.
Why on earth would you wait to talk to your boss about an increase in your salary until you had your PE? That only reduces the number of times you can reasonably talk to your boss about an increase. Also are you going to measure your worth on the PE exam? Hell no! What about if you made a mistake and fail, what does that say, your only worth 50? If you let the exam mean something then your risking a lot on it, truth is that you should already know your worth by the way people around you look at your ideas, the exam only allows you a further legal avenue for advancement of your worth, not how "good" your engineering skills are.
If it was me, on Monday I would ask my boss for a meeting to discuss your role in the company, give him 1 max to find a suitable time. I would right down ten facts before the meeting, no general comments about your abilities and work load. AKA, for the last 6 weeks I have averaged 10.5hrs of over time. Not "I am doing a lot of over time". After the meeting you can then decide if you want to start looking elsewhere.
After I got the positive result in the PE, again I would request a meeting with the boss, with a few extra facts. AKA the state considers me competent; or I now have the ability to work alone and so on, maybe even sign off on projects in my skill range if you compensate me for it.
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Tell them that the results will probably be in by Feb 2011. When they come in you want some significant consideration of an increase...you've made the sacrifices, you've proved you are valuable to the company, and you didn't ask for the increase before you proved your worth...now it's time for them to step up and prove their worth to you...otherwise, you need to do what's best for your personal growth and career...
Go for it....you're damned good at what you do...make them know it.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Point taken. I probably won't do it Monday, maybe next Monday. I need to think through, write down, analyze, and rehearse what I'll say so it doesn't sound rehearsed. I'd also like to get some salary info. Anyone know where I can find that? I've looked on salary.com and a couple others, but they never seem to apply directly.
I definitely undervalue myself, as Ron noted many do.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION."
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Are you the only one of a few people who is busting ass in your firm, or is it corporate wide? It seems you are getting a lot of respect and "love" at your workplace but not enough $$$. We all think we are underpaid at some point or the other.
I feel you will CERTAINLY make more money elsewhere, but would you rather be challenged from an engineering standpoint (which I think you love), pushed to your limits or will you rather just be doing a 9-5 easy job while making a ton of money? The engineer in me tells me the former.
Stick it out and wait for things to turn around a little. We are all in the same boat other than the oil and petroleum guys.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
What's the message they're sending? I don't think it's as much a message that they're sending ME, as it is a coporate philosophy. I learned about a year or so ago that my company has two starting salary offers - one for a BS and one for a MS (both for new grads). I also learned that they don't negotiate these salaries - I learned this from two other engineers at my firm. I came in at the BS level, but at my first review was given the standard raise plus the difference between my starting salary and the starting salary of a new grad with a MS. My boss told me that he felt my technical aptitude was at least comparable to someone coming in with a MS and he wanted to compensate me for my knowledge and not the paper. I think anything beyond that is out of his control.
Slick-
I'm definitely not the only one working these kinds of hours. It happens more in my department than others, but it is definitely a culture that is fostered company wide. I hear what you're saying about being challenged, and, believe me, I LOVE it. There comes a point, though, where you feel taken advantage of. I'm not sure I'm there yet, given I'm so early in my career, but I'm approaching it. I'm hoping for a very nice Christmas bonus this year because of all the extra hours put in. I shouldn't be expecting it, but I'm hopeful........we'll see.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
The Engineer IV category would be roughly equivalent to a GS-11 with a salary of around $60,000 to $65,000 per year.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Exactly, I'd have similar concerns if I were in this situation. Even though they may make him happy now, it may ultimately be a continuous struggle to get proper compensation in the long run.
Are the higher-ups in your department putting in similar amounts of overtime as well? If not, I'd be really pissed.
I think you should definitely expect a very nice Xmas bonus for the amount of overtime you have worked. If you are going to find out soon whether or not there will a Xmas bonus, then it may be worthwhile to wait and see what happens with that before you "have the talk".
Are you sure about those numbers? For my region, ASCE reports average salaries of $62.5k for Engineer III and $74.6k for Engineer IV. I know there are regional differences, but I would not expect it to be that great.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
A few things to think about before talking to the boss; this way he doesn't catch you off guard.
Are your projects mainly lump sum contracts? That could work against you because a LS contract gives a company a better opportunity to increase its profit without the client knowing. If you're on a T&M project or similar the profit is known so it's really a matter of juggling staff hours.
When you said you are a salaried employee, does that mean you get paid even if you have no work on a particular day? If that's the case, you're boss could throw it back about how they carried you in the slow times. In my case and most of my friends at other companies salaried means we're not entitled to time and one-half, assuming we get paid for the OT and if you're not billable, you're gone.
Is a Christmas bonus more or less a certainty each year (kudos for saying Christmas)? Granted a Christmas bonus never compensates for all the free hours but it's something. BTW if you go to work for a publicly traded company you'll probably never see a bonus again.
What's the turn over rate at your company? Is it more than 10%? A few years ago, I was told that was the industry standard. At the time the company I was with had a couple of years between 15-18% and the office I was in had 25% one year. This was due to management and other issues more than salary. If there's a low turn over rate the boss could say the problem is you. If there's a high turn over it could mean they don't care if people leave or it could lead to the realization that a high turn over costs them money.
Do they pick up a larger share of your health insurance than most companies?
Do they kick in a bigger share on the 401k than most? It seems like most companies cap the contribution at around 4% of salary.
Some things to think about. All the best.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Your's is an age old question, we all think we are underpaid, we sometimes like the boss and generally communicate with him just fine, but he's an S.O.B. because he doesn't pay us more. Cut back on your hours worked, slowly but surely to 45-50hrs/wk, it is not reasonable that they shrink a two month project to 5 weeks and expect you to make up the difference in unpaid overtime. If they do that to you, some deadlines just don't get met; and in some way you condition them to expect this performance if you keep giving it. They actually do understand this but will gladly take your free effort if you keep giving it. Funny thing, I always work the 60hrs. for no extra pay over 40 hrs., and my wife asked, are you ever going to get paid or recognized for that effort; no, they fired me because I went against the grain of their corp. culture, and fought for our engineers and draftsmen when they were blamed for problems which weren't our fault. So I started my own engineering co. and took some of their clients, and did O.K., some international travel when it was still fun, some really big clients, but never got rich, you just don't do that selling your time or services, sort of a commodity. Invent a better mouse trap or a steel framing connection that everyone needs and will use, that's the way to get rich.
You seem to be a very smart and capable young engineer to me from what I have seen in your posts, I would love to have you working for me, that could be quite interesting for both of us. But, then I'd be your S.O.B. Funny thing is, that even though I run my own engineering company, you make about as much as I do, with fewer hours, and many less headaches, and you don't have nearly the 45yrs. of experience I do. Where's the fairness in that? I'm gona cut your pay so I earn what I'm really worth. Besides that, I think your benefits are costing us too much, so let's talk about that too.
Intangible items; does your girlfriend want to move, do you have good friendships and family where you are, do you like where you are, what are relocation and dislocation costs, is the grass really greener, all of these are questions with no certain (absolute) answers.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I believe the classifications are correct.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
The message they're sending is that they don't care if you leave or not! Do you think your salary screams "please stay with us!"? The salary you stated doesn't justify a good office library or software. Your substandard pay would only be worth it if you were working 9-5 because time can be a valuable thing. Obviously that's not happening.
As you said, it's corporate culture. It doesn't matter if you or your boss asks corporate for more than their typical raise, you'll be marked for deletion by corporate. They obviously just want to market the best and brightest to their clients but not actually carry through.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
good questions. Yes, most contracts are lump sum. I was told a while back by a senior engineer that it gives the company the beat chance to make the most money. Yes, salaried means I get paid even if I have no work for a particular day, however, that's NEVER happened. 401(k) contribution was 3%. I don't use their healthcare - my wife's is better. As far as turnover - I've seen many let go, but only two leave voluntarily in my 4.5 years.
Abusementpark-
our director works a LOT, but our principal doesn't.
dh-
I like my boss a lot. That's what makes it hard to leave. If he were an ass it would be a no-brainer.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I did a quick salary search last night. I looked at salary.com, payscale.com, and engineersalary.com. The three median salaries that came out of these three sites for my location are (in no specific order) 60k, 66k, and 81.7k. The 66k was the closest to what I expected. Do these numbers sound about right to others? These are all based on a minimum of 4 years of experience and are reported for the 50th percentile.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I did compare the ASCE results with one of those sites and the result were similar, but be sure you are making an apples to apples comparison, especially since you are on the edge of that critical distinction of being licensed.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I spent too much time at work (meeting important deadlines, etc.) at my first job (consulting firm). I moved away after three years due to family reasons. Some bits of insight that may help you:
1) It was clear to me when I had the "I'm leaving" meeting that my boss was prepared to give me a significant raise, had I told him I was going to a competitor. (Not to sound arrogant: Like you, I was a valuable employee that did good work.) Note that I left during a somewhat busy time, so there wasn't the "fear" that exists now.
2) I learned "5 years" of knowledge in my "3 years". Big confidence booster.
3) At my current job, engineers generally work closer to 40 hours. However, I still tend to work some overtime (for free). I now realize that its just my nature to work "too much", to make sure things are done "right", and "on time". I suspect you may find the same is true for yourself.
4) The culture at both of my jobs: Bosses are laid back and let you "do your own thing". They don't have a choice, because they're too damn busy just like you are.
5) I read a great book called "Endurance". This book chronicles a disastrous expedition to the south pole where the explorers were stranded on floating ice packs for two months and occasionally chased by sea lions. It wasn't the point of the book, but the thing that jumped out at me: During this time, the men were genuinely happy at many points, even when on the ice. They had learned to live with "where they were stuck", and the "glass half full" personalities pervaded. Maybe you aren't stuck on an ice pack at this point, but chances are that whatever move you make, you won't regret it.
6) You're underpaid. I'm familiar with consulting pay in the south versus the rust belt, etc., and you should be getting at least around 60k.
7) Put yourself in your boss / owner's shoes. It's probably safe to assume he has a large company overhead and relatively little backlog. Chances are he's justifiably scared of the economy.
Don't take this in a condescending way: You need to learn to have the hard conversation. Be frank with your boss and explain your concerns and thoughts. Being able to have the hard conversation will further your career a lot more than any engineering knowledge. Ideally you have a hard conversation with your boss without giving an ultimatum. Something good, maybe a raise, will come of it. Good luck.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
From my experience these are representative for staff engineers; firm owners and office managers probably make more than the salaries reported in Levels VII and VIII which I did not include here. I only have limited knowledge about what one former boss paid himself.
North Central Region
Engineer Level I - entry level (GS-5)
# of Respondents Average 25th % Median 75th %
Base Pay 126 52,553 46,200 52,000 58,000
Bonus 49 4,860 1,200 2,500 5,000
Engineer Level II - Engineering intern (GS-7)
Base Pay 184 54,608 49,660 54,098 58,893
Bonus 96 3,846 1,000 2,145 5,000
Engineer Level III - Staff Engineer (GS-9)
Base Pay 284 57,479 50,000 56,180 63,283
Bonus 166 5,148 1,000 3,000 6,000
Engineer Level IV - Associate Engineer (GS-11)
Base Pay 738 67,172 58,760 65,000 74,880
Bonus 424 6,462 1,625 3,500 8,019
Engineer Level V - Senior or Project Engineer (GS-12)
Base Pay 1003 83,501 72,000 82,000 93,000
Bonus 592 8,767 2,500 5,500 11,254
Engineer Level VI - Principal Eng. or Eng. Manager (GS-13)Base Pay 871 98,517 83,000 96,500 110,000
Bonus 545 12,848 3,200 8,000 16,000
Definitions
Base Pay = Annual salaries reported for primary industry. Excludes overtime pay and bonus/commissions.
Bonus/commission = Annual amount reported.
NMS = No Meaningful Sample; sample size is less than 10
gjc
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
The salary difference between your region and mine in the South is fairly significant. It looks like roughly 10% less. Do you have the ability to post data for any of the other regions? I'd be curious to see how it varies across the board.
If StructuralEIT is in the low-mid 50s, then currently he isn't drastically off the average/median salary 56-57. Of course, we know he should be above average. It isn't easy to gage where he should fall in the Engineer IV category once he is licensed, since I believe that classification covers 4-8 years of experience, and may be more indicative of someone with 6 years (average of the range) experience. Bottom line: he is underpaid now, and will be significantly underpaid if he receives no raise once he becomes officially licensed.
RE: Culture at Structural Firms
I was only able to get my area after participating in the survey last spring. ASCE probably doesn't want us to know that the grass is greener elsewhere.
gjc
RE: Culture at Structural Firms