Which Digital Relay?
Which Digital Relay?
(OP)
Hi all
I have a large number of old GEC relays to replace and have been looking at the digital relays on offer. I can't see much between them in terms of function. I got a long list down to GE Multilin, Schneider SEPAM, Areva MIDOS and Siemens SIPTOTEC.
Does anyone have experiecne of how reliable and user friendly these products are?
Regards
eti
I have a large number of old GEC relays to replace and have been looking at the digital relays on offer. I can't see much between them in terms of function. I got a long list down to GE Multilin, Schneider SEPAM, Areva MIDOS and Siemens SIPTOTEC.
Does anyone have experiecne of how reliable and user friendly these products are?
Regards
eti






RE: Which Digital Relay?
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Which Digital Relay?
RE: Which Digital Relay?
David Castor
www.cvoes.com
RE: Which Digital Relay?
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Choice of digital relays is not simple thing.
List of function
Communication, control, monitoring, measurments.
line from MV up to EHV.
Number of digital inputs and outputs.
Number of current and voltage inputs.
Optional RTD cards, optional extention card.
Optional free programable logic.
MTBF, MTTF.
Price+strong local support, reference list.
Lot of things
Godd Luck.
Slava
RE: Which Digital Relay?
If you're not ready to do your own tech support, you might want to see who's using what in your area, although I have had good success with GE online and via phone. Being mostly heavy industry now, GE is our installed base.
old field guy
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Then again I have refused to buy some relays because the salesmen was a jerk and I did not expect very good service.
And it is a good idea to talk with other utilities, and industries to see about which are good relays, and which are not. I have found so far all the manufactures have at least one dog in there lineup of relays.
RE: Which Digital Relay?
The installation is heavy industrial and in the UK.
It's mostly protecting 11kV, mainly transformer feeders, but some motors.
We do not require to derive any signal other than basic local alarms. No SCADA for example.
My priority is reliability, simplicity of operation and manufacturer support
Regards eti
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Personally I like also Siemens relays, but I am not sure what is their customer support in UK. From Siemens I will advice you on the proven 7SJ61,62 or 63 series, depending on application. There are new and well advertized 7SJ80-series, but if you don't use IEC61850 protocol, there is no much sence to use them.
I will not recommend SEPAM's.
ABB also have good relays, but they are a bit difficult to handle for first time.
I would not recommend USA-made relays simply because in Europe they are not popular. May be in UK you have better support, but here on the East part of continent they are very rare.
There is one more relatively new on the market Finnish company - VAMP, as Slava mentioned. We use them sometimes in industrial applications with good results. Pricewise also they are very competitive. Their biggest problem for me up to now is lack of popularity, so customer often prefers more expensive but famous brands. Their software is free, they have surprisingly broad scope of functions and very easy to work with.
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RE: Which Digital Relay?
Thanks, very useful. I also like Siemens and Areva and both provide good support. I'll look at the VAMP agan. I've got some experiecne with them and is was all good.
Proven units are the way forward.
Cheers
eti
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Hi Eti, it sounds like you are after some MiCOM P120 - P123 protection relays...
They are cheap, simple, user friendly... (NO, I DO NOT WORK FOR AREVA), but I have tested, GE Multilins, Sepams, SELs, MiCOMs and many more...
Funny enough, choosing relays comes down to personal choice... u can put 10 engineers in a room to talk about relays and I guarantee they end up arguing... hehehe
The other thing is Areva is pretty big in Europe, so I can't see you not getting good support...
Hope that's helped...
Dan de Freitas
Field Services
RE: Which Digital Relay?
I was worked for ABB 12 years, of course for me ABB relays are favorit
I work now with other relays too ( and before was worked
In UK, need check UK companies, may be CEE or Siemens UK, is not Siprotec.
lz5pl, you are right, ABB relays are not simple, if we talk about RE_54 or RE_670, but possible use RE_610, simple and cheap, possible use RE_52, possible use newer relay REF611.
Siemens-800 series, for me, a very good choice.
Sepam 10, btw, AREVA P20, P30 series now is also SE.
Don't forgot about simple and cheaper relays: Orion, SEG.
Today, its a real problem choice relays, price, price, price and support.
Best Regards.
Slava
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Bitter experience would steer me away from CEE's products. There are better products out there.
Siemens appear to have resurrected the old Reyrolle brand name after they bought the business from VA Tech. I'm not sure what the modern Reyrolle-badged relays are like but it was a well-respected brand many years ago. Can anyone comment?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Which Digital Relay?
"..the more, the merrier" Genghis Khan
RE: Which Digital Relay?
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Anyway, I'd buy my relays from someone who knows what they're doing. Maybe you could get a job writing 'Engrish' manuals for the Chinese rip-off market?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Which Digital Relay?
I think the "buy local" issue is the best advice. Here in the US I would select Multilin, SEL or maybe even Basler over any imported product, mainly because of support. I used to work for Siemens and still do work for a Siemens Solution Partner / Integrator and I still loves me some Siemens products. But I steer clear of Siprotect relays here just because every time I need information on one, it takes 3-4 days to get an answer from someone; and I have inside tracks that I can still take advantage of! Basically if you are not one of their big end user utility customers, you can't get any attention on that product. Protection Relays are complex and most people need a lot of help with them, in fact some people make a decent living just on relay engineering, service and commissioning. Having good local support is paramount.
Really? If you were in the UK as the OP stated he is, you would still "buy American"? No wonder people in other parts of the world perceive us as arrogant...
"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Which Digital Relay?
RMST relay of CEE UK a very simple overcurrent and earth fault relay + thermal protection. About 10-15 min time for learn/read manual, 10-15 min for setting without laptop.
I don't know price.
Best Regards.
Slava
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Whenever I have a problem, I can speak to a highly qualified SEL Application Engineer and get a correct answer in about 5 minutes.
If there is ever a hardware related problem, SEL fixes / replaces / repairs for FREE.
GE has come a long way with the UR series of relays. The SW is very good and the accuracy / reliability of the devices has improved significantly over the years. I don't like how the wiring is laid out on the relay. I like the modular approach.
The Siemens relays are very good, but I have also experienced trouble trying to get support for DNP mapping (somthing that should have been in the manual). A purchase order was expected for support.
My $0.02
RE: Which Digital Relay?
I'm steering very heavily towards GE at the moment. Big decision is Wednesday.
Cheers
eti
RE: Which Digital Relay?
Does your client not have any preference? They might find that it is difficult to get experienced field support within the UK for a relatively uncommon family of relays. That said, the modern test sets are so powerful that in some ways testing has dumbed down because of the level of automation available, except when something peculiar starts happening and things can suddenly get rather complicated trying to fathom out what is going on!
Do I guess from your accent that you're from the other side of The Wall? Hadrian should've built it a bit higher.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Which Digital Relay?
"..the more, the merrier" Genghis Khan
RE: Which Digital Relay?
That all depends on what side your on?? I'm north, but only just.
Support for GE is a bit of a concern but I've seen their guys quite a bit lately on another project. Not directly employed but part of a good network.
Your spot on about testing. Lots of kit today tests the software and not much more. I want a system in place for this plant that achieves quite a bit more. We won't go all the way to PI (far too difficult) but we will test more than the relay itself. We have designed in test points that will allow access test CT's, cabling, lock-outs separately, trip circuits etc without too much difficulty. One step beyone the usual test block. Lots more cabling though! We'll see how it all work.
Cheers