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Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!
14

Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

(OP)
Hey everyone, I'd like some opinions on this from engineers from various organisations please.

I used to work with a very big marine construction company as a graduate trainee and then as a fully fledged engineer for 4 years. I was told I was good at my job, but never felt as confident as I would've liked. My main issue was that I was straight out of uni and wanted to revise my university notes to keep the theory fresh in my mind (my work was very theoretical). However at the end of every working day I was so exhausted I couldn't bare to revise.

In my final year in this job I was doing the work of 3 people and was set unrealistic deadlines. When I mentioned this to supervisors they agreed, but just said: 'do the best you can!' It was the typical overworked-employee scene: lots of overtime, sometimes weekend work, and although my salary did reflect this extra work I felt completely drained and eventually had to take sick leave from all the stress caused.

I have since left engineering and moved into the public sector, which I enjoyed for a short while, but more recently feel very disheartened that my skills with numbers and logic are not being utilised in any way. I miss the satisfaction of solving a complicated engineering problem. There is some small element of nostalgia creeping in here, but I do feel very strongly that I want to work with numbers again, perhaps in another engineering role that is not so draining.

So I bet you can guess what my next question is: is this the norm? Surely there are engineering companies out there that take care of their employees and discourage overworking, don't overload them with projects as soon as they realise they're good at their jobs?

Is it possible to re-enter engineering and find organisations that won't destroy my health as the last one did? I am willing to retrain or go in at a lower salary/lower level position to return to engineering, if the company is right. :)

What do you all think? *fingers crossed* Give me some hope! ;)

 

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

You are the only one who can control how much you work and your work habits.  Work to live and not live to work. Changing job may not help if you keep over working yourself. Learn to leave the job as prescribed time of end of your day or shift. If you did not set the deadlines, do not worry about them. Just make sure that you put in your requisite time and effort, such as 8 hr/day or whatever the norm is.

Regardless of what one may claim, no employer can force an employee to do overtime. Although, if you keep giving them more without asking, they will not complain or reward.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

It sounds like you maybe need to build your confidence.  In this economy a lot of us have to take on more responsibilities, some loss in salary, etc.  But I firmly believe that employers that take advantage of their employees like this are going to be the first ones to lose their best employees.

It also sounds like you have a lot of talent and are knowledgable.  Don't take something that you think is less than you deserve.  Think big and take aim.  You're not going to get anywhere unless you aggresively pursue what you feel you deserve.  Again, I think you're just in a situation a lot of us are in.  But there are good empoloyers out there that value their employees.  You just have to find that situation, be confident, and stick up for yourself.  Alright I'm off my soap box!  

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Where are you?

"So I bet you can guess what my next question is: is this the norm?"
Yes in today's economy.  With layoffs people are taking on more work.

"Surely there are engineering companies out there that take care of their employees"
You are your own company with in the company.  You have to take care of yourself, you're an adult now, so you have to craft your own career path, it is not the responsibility of the company.  

"and discourage overworking, "
Discourage overworking?  Sorry, but that is how you move to your next position.  How do you get "above and beyond job responsibility" on your review if you don't do more than what is expected of you?

"don't overload them with projects as soon as they realise they're good at their jobs?"
Sorry, if you are the subject matter expert, you will get all the work that is applicable to your specialty.  Just be glad that you have become an asset to the company.

"Is it possible to re-enter engineering and find organisations that won't destroy my health as the last one did?"
Yes there are, you have to find them.

"I am willing to retrain or go in at a lower salary/lower level position to return to engineering, if the company is right. :)"

You have the experience so use it.  In today's economy, you may get the right position, but the lower salary.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Take inventory of your skills and seek fair compensation based on them.  If training is offered, that's fine, but don't start from the position that you are in any way inadequate.

Consider contracting.  It has some nice things going for it:

You are hired for a specific job and usually for a specific duration.

If they want you to work overtime, you will be paid for it.

You get to stay out of office politics.

No matter how awful the job turns out to be, it has an end.

Contract houses today often provide benefits, and they are often superior to benefits offered by their customers.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I almost forgot this:  When downsizing/ rightsizing/ involuntary terminations come around, contractors almost always get a couple of days notice.  Direct hires just get whacked in the face with a dead fish.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

(OP)
I suppose I did not get across that my previous company had a history of overworking its employees and this work ethic seemed to be ingrained into the organisation. Yes I can take control to some extent (I did fight back but it was difficult, pressure was coming in from everywhere).

Additionally, I'm not looking for career progression just yet. I don't want to be overworked, simple. I'm willing to stay in the same position for a long time if it simply meant I get to not be overworked.

And the reason I say I am willing to retrain is not because I don't value my skills, its because the work I was doing previously was very very narrow in scope. I simply can't walk into most engineering jobs without some additional training, given my limited experience.

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

If you graduated from engineering school, you are qualified to _start_ any engineering jobs within your specialty.  Nobody expects you to arrive with all the local knowledge you'll need.  ... well, except for the HR weasels who write job ads nowadays.  Basically they ask for 'the guy who just left us, except without the things that caused him to leave'.  What they'll settle for is negotiable.

You're right, you can't change an outfit's collective mentality.  If an interviewer _brags_ about how everybody there works 55+ hours for 40 hours pay, it would be rude to just flat call him an idiot.  Better to end the interview with a polite excuse about how it's not exactly what you're looking for.  Interviews work both ways.

It's okay to tell _us_ that you feel a little less than perfectly qualified for every possible opportunity, and that you want to have a life outside of work.  Just don't put that stuff in a cover letter.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!


Yes, you may find an engineering position that does not have the meat grinder corporate culture, but it is likely to be a smaller organization.  I had lots of free time at my last job, right before I got whacked in the face with a dead fish.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge."  Ivana Trump

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I've been told not to work so long on a few occasions, comments about how efficiency drops etc.

Of course, they still wanted their projects completed on time though for the most part.

 

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What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

There are so many variables in all this, clearly some companies do take better care of their employees than others.

Business generally works on supply and demand and whoever is in the strongest position can negotiate the best deal, it is not just employees that are having a rough time at the minute, companies are having to take on jobs with very tight lead times and low margins in order to stay in business, of course they have the option as do employees to just walk away and do something else.

If you come to the conclusion that ALL engineering companies are unreasonable then it is probably your expectations that are unreasonable and not every company in the world.

What sector you work in also has a major impact, the area I live in has all the major F1 teams except Ferrari and I know a good few people who work for them and whilst it can be a dream job for some especially the petrol heads the burn out rate is very high. Sorry but you won't have an engine for Sundays grand prix because it is five o clock and I am going home now doesn't really cut it.

As with most things in life some things you can change some things you cannot, expel all your energy on things you can change.
 

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!


        
Item    Description    Hrs/Day
Time to Sleep    Actual bed rest    8.0
Time to Work    On the job    8.0
Time to Travel    Commute to and from work (1 hour each way)    2.0
Time to get ready for work (Bathe, shave, dress, etc.    0.5
Time for morning meal    With family if possible    0.5
Time for evening meal    With family if possible    1.0
Time for lunch at work    Normal one half hour    0.5
Time with family    Homework, bath baby, shopping,.    2.0
Time with spouse    Maintain that relationship    1.5
Time for that extra work    "Overtime"    0.0
    
Total hours listed per day = 24.0
Total hours in a day =     24.0

See, you don't have time to work Overtime.
 

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

In my line of work I have always thought that there are only two situations possible. Overworked or unemployed.

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I think most companies (especially now) expect a lot more (maybe too much) from their employees.  Most are of the mindset that we should all feel lucky to have a job and do anything at all to make sure we keep it.

I've been working a LOT of hours for the last 6-9 months (50-60 per week every single week). I feel angry sometimes knowing 1. How much extra rime they're getting out of me at 2. Such a cheap rate to begin with.  If I didn't get to work on such cool projects and as much autonomy as I do I would have moved on long ago.

The way to make sure that you're not being taken advantage of is to make sure you get paid for OT.  

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

4
Am I the only one that thinks the profession pays poorly for the amount of instability you have to deal with?  I attend conferences, spend a considerable amount of time outside of work taking course and reading industry literature.  I love engineering and the autonomy you can have but it isn't right when an electrician or techician, (no offense) get paid more per an hour than an engineer who has to assume in most cases much more liability.  

I love engineering and there are cool jobs that I would kill for but I would not be surpised if I decided to just piss on all of it in my 40s to start up my own business. Please don't reply with you shouldn't go into engineering for the money.  Engineering is not a civil service.  It is a profession and should be respected and rewarded as such.  

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

4
Only you can determine how many hours you work.

Work addicts, and people who are insecure in their skills, will find excuses to stay late at whatever job they find for themselves.  Most employers will take that extra benefit without noticing, much less compensating this extra time or even saying "thank you".

Take it from a recovered work addict:  figure out what's driving you to work those extra hours.  Fix that.  Nobody else will fix it for you.

If you can't fix it, find a place that at least compensates you for the extra effort, in whatever way they can.  Or take that work ethic and put it to work for yourself in your own business.

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Quote:

You're right, you can't change an outfit's collective mentality.  If an interviewer _brags_ about how everybody there works 55+ hours for 40 hours pay, it would be rude to just flat call him an idiot.  Better to end the interview with a polite excuse about how it's not exactly what you're looking for.  Interviews work both ways.


That is so true, I interviewed with a company a couple years ago that only gave 2 weeks vacation no matter how many years experience the candidate has.  The owner of the company then says you can get comp time for any hours over 50 per week and some guys get a couple extra weeks vacation each year.  I did the math and said, no thanks!

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Not too long ago I was chatting with someone (a principal in a firm) who was looking to hire a new employee, and had a candidate they liked, but they were concerned because said candidate (nonsupervisory) would probably "only" be willing to work 50 hours per week on salary.

There's a level in a company at which one should have the "do whatever it takes" mentality, and there's a level at which one does one's delineated job and goes home to the kids and/or dog.  One would hope that salaries at those different levels would be commensurate with the level of responsibility and commitment.  I assume, however, that that is not always the case.  Salaries and other such expectations are set by people in charge, people so personally invested in the success of the firm that they live and breathe it, and they don't understand why anyone else would not be the same way.

In a bad enough market, even the people at the bottom have a deep personal investment in "doing whatever it takes".

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Anybody who is truly willing to put in "whatever it takes" to a job will soon realize that it will take whatever you will give.  And it will take it, without even noticing, saying "thank you", or compensating you properly for the effort.

No, you need to decide what you CAN give, consistently, without creating a deficit in your mental or physical health, your relationships etc., and give that.  Actually no, that's not true either- you need to SELL that, not give it.  You are working for a living, not making a donation to a charity.

Regardless what level you're at in an organization, there's a difference between working for a salary and accepting a life of indentured servitude in the name of professionalism.  Unfortunately there are many people in our profession who don't understand the distinction.  

Unless you're a sole proprietor or in a partnership with only a few partners, if the company rises and falls based solely on your uncompensated overtime, it's in serious trouble.  If you're a work addict, you need to give your head a shake and get over yourself:  you need to realize that you are at the same time both MORE important to yourself and to your family, and LESS important to your employer, than you currently imagine.

 

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

agreed with moltenmetal, again...

"Doing whatever it takes" does not include working for free or at the detriment of yourself or your family.

Working uncompensated overtime  or even consistent paid overtime does not prove your loyalty, just that you are a workoholic and cannot manage your time or work.

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

It's managements job to get the most out of each employee.  It's been said on this forum, only you determine how many hours you work.  Absolutely true.

As long as you keep giving, you have indicated to mgmt that your limit has not yet been reached, and they will continue to ask for more.  It's your job to determine equilibrium, you will never be able to give as much as they ask for, it is open-ended.

There is a huge misconception within non-management employees, that mgmt can never be satisfied.  This is not true.  If you are doing your best, and it's good quality work, and not slacking, you have a duty to yourself to draw the line.  In most cases, mgmt will not only be satisfied, but will respect your ability to know your own boundaries and having the courage to (tactfully) communicate them.

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I can't speak for all engineering disciplines, but Civil is an extremely boom-bust discipline, because of the nature of project lead time and project financing.  You're either overworked or unemployed because there's either too much work or none at all.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

Every job and i mean every job I've worked since I first graduated in a bachelors degree fell into this vicious cycle.

1) Start out new, learn the company ropes
2) Add hours and take on new responsibilites. Never say no to any job
3) Get disenchanted, possibly screw something up due to too much on the plate. Feel resentment towards other co-workers who slack.

I early good raises early on in an organization when I take on more, but then it levels out as management comes to expect it. Then if something goes wrong because I stupidly didn't ask for help when I didn't have time, I am the only one responsible


And I do believe part or all of it has to do with low self esteem when it comes to my professional life.

Co-workers notice this type of stuff. If they have been with the company longer than you, they'll find ways to dump their work on to you even if they aren't your boss because they know you won't say no or rarely say no.

I seriously never learn.

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

3
I have developed a self-defense strategy that has worked for me, but it takes time to put in place.

In my military days, one of my responsibilities was to train the ranks below me to step into my shoes and step into each other's shoes if any of us was taken out.  Later in my career I learned to recognize poor command leadership in other units when I would hear from another outfit, "Well the only person in our unit who can do that is Sgt XX."

However, corporate America (I have only ever worked in the United States so my strategy may be useless elsewhere) seems to if not encourage such concentration of skills in one person, at least seems to accept it as a part of doing business.  There are managers out there who do not let themselves get trapped this way, but there are quite a few who do not watch out for this concentration of skills.

So my strategy has been, wherever I have worked, to keep learning other disciplines, other tasks, other software packages, other CAD programs, and even though I am not management to learn a number of accounting and tracking methodologies.  By doing so I am usually able to put myself in a position where I am at least somewhat "untouchable".

Now I want you to know I understand that no one is TRULY indispensable, least of all me.  But I have usually been able to position myself so that if not indispensable, it will be a real pain for my manager to not have me around.

And here is the reason this is on topic for the original post:  By placing myself in that position I find that I have a much higher level of success at refusing additional work unless I am sure I have the time for it without over-committing my schedule to the organization.

I am extremely grateful for the jobs I have had and for the job I now have.  But I have always tried to position myself to be able to have control over my workload whenever I can do so without either losing my family time and without hindering the success of my manager, department and company.

Like the vast majority of my peers who post here I am more than willing to do far more than normal when a surge effort is critical.  Every organization legitimately faces such situations.  But in organizations where such "emergencies" are the norm rather than the exception, I can often avoid being personally overloaded for more than just a short term effort.

I have been in my industry 36 years...I don't mind having a job but I have family with whom I would much rather spend my time, and due to a lot of poor decisions on my part and some corporate skulduggery, I doubt I will ever be able to retire.  But while I know I am working towards the grave (aren't we all?) I will spend all the time I can with family and still support my organization but within limits that I have usually able to set.

clown

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I work for a very large company. I got there through numerous acquisitions and megers. At the beginning of the chain I was with a small firm. We had a good reputation and designed several well known bridges. We also had a "do whatever it takes mentality." What I mean by that is no task was considered beneath anyone's dignity. In a crunch, our senior engineers would think twice about preparing a bar list or doing some drafting. We cared about the project.

And we were paid for overtime, although it was straight time. I had a five year stretch in the 80's where I was generally working 57 hours a week. From reading various posts, we're working 50+ hours a week for free. In my office, young engineers don't want to work overtime even though they would be paid for it ( most of our work is T&M).

I work more than I have to because I like to come in early. I can get things done when I'm not being interrupted. But I usually stay late because on my projects I don't have a deputy PM or a real project engineer who can look after things if I'm not there. Today, people have become very particular about what they like to and what they will do, AND, they get away with it.

30 years ago, if I said no the the chief engineer or my squad leader I probably would have been thrown out of a window (not literally). Work was work.  

RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I have worked for a major international engineering consulting firm that do not "burn out" their engineers, and look after their people. I have also worked at a major international engineering consulting firm that burn people up and spit them out. In fact, both instances was at the same firm.

What I find is that it is not the company that burns people out, but your immediate supervisor/manager. At every company, public/private, large/small, this/that, there are good and bad people. You have to make do the best you can of a bad situation and look to move on. You have to enjoy and savour the good situations, before you move on.

Remember how you feel now. In a few years/decades, you will be the one affecting other people's working lives. Treat them the same way you want to be treated well.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Are all engineers burning out or is it possible NOT to be overworked?!

I'm currently an intern for a major international medical device company. During the 6 months I have been working there, I see that many of the engineers work no more than 40 hours per week. I was astonished to see/hear that since I thought 40 hour work weeks were nothing but a myth. However, this company definitely does take care of its employees (i.e. really discourages laying people off/firing people). Unfortunately, they are on a hiring freeze so when I graduate this spring, I won't have a position there.

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