Switching Jobs
Switching Jobs
(OP)
I work in a small company and have aspirations to work for larger companies and exploit my higher education.
Our clients are big aerospace companies. I am the technical lead in my company. I interact with the Clients' engineers from the beginning of the project to the end. They have been so far very pleased with my work.
Would it be unethical of me to send them a personal email saying I am looking for a position in their company.
Thanks
YSM
Our clients are big aerospace companies. I am the technical lead in my company. I interact with the Clients' engineers from the beginning of the project to the end. They have been so far very pleased with my work.
Would it be unethical of me to send them a personal email saying I am looking for a position in their company.
Thanks
YSM





RE: Switching Jobs
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Switching Jobs
McGiverS2000 put it very nicely!
RE: Switching Jobs
It may be better to make some discrete enquiries verbally rather than by email.
RE: Switching Jobs
RE: Switching Jobs
As for weeds' position,I do not think you are bad employee as weeds suggests. What he describes is the employer's problem not yours. While it is true that employer has some contribution but seeking out other employment for your betterment is not unethical. Keeping their employees happy is employer's responsibility. In free market, especially in the USA, where most employment is at will (of both sides), I really do not have any sympathy for weak employers or employees.
Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com
RE: Switching Jobs
Weeeds, I do understand your point but what is the obligation of the employee. Is he supposed to stay with a company for ever? The company did invest in training the employee but on the employee's part he too must have helped the company grow and create good-will among its clients.
Don't these two things balance out?
Thanks
YSM
RE: Switching Jobs
You are paid to do a job, hopefully within your field of expertise. If you manage to learn something new during your tenure as an employee, kudos to you... but that newly learned skill in no way should make you beholden to the employer. They benefit by your experience while you're there. I wouldn't hire a greenie, no matter how strong his character may be, if I needed a specific area of knowledge in that employee... and as such, I'm going to pay a premium to find someone with that particular skillset.
Sounds like a very short-sighted hiring process, and if everyone thought the way you're claiming to do, there would never be any marketable talent out there because they would all stay with one company...
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
RE: Switching Jobs
Iococa worked for Ford - then rebuilt Chrysler. Almost the same for all the early car mfgs.
I think Westinghouse started with Edison. I don't ever remember hearing of the Edison Light bulb company. I think he either sold it or someone took the idea and ran with it.
Many industries were spawned by those who worked for Alexander Bell.
Glenn Curtis and all the early airplane mfgs either worked for the Wright Brothers or outright stole their ideas.
Be proessional as stated. Do NOT steal customer lists, plans, patents, etc. But if you feel you can do it better - good luck.
Matter of Point. Most non-compete clauses barely hold up in court. By the time the lawyers are hired, suits filed, discovery taken, etc - the time limit has run out and they become a moot point.
RE: Switching Jobs
It is not unethical to apply for an advertised position.
It is unethical to suggest to a current client that they could cut out your current employer by employing you directly, especially if the only reason you are uniquely qualified is because of very specific on the job learning.
If employers are investing a lot of sensitive IP in a particular employee, in my often not humble enough opinion, they would be very well advised to do it only when tied to a contract with guaranteed time limited employment and specified non compete clauses.
ie 5 year contract and non compete for contract period with existing or previous customers during contract period and some named companies.
This also depends on non compete/restriction of employment laws in your regime.
Regards
Pat
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RE: Switching Jobs
If you're going to do what you've just said and you happen to work for the government and the private company is a gov. contractor, it is not just unethical but also illegal.
Again, following what rbulsara said, there is a right and wrong way of doing it.
RE: Switching Jobs
"I work in a small company and have aspirations to work for larger companies and exploit my higher education"
... it became clear to me that being an engineer for a small company meant that more of my higher (and lower) education could be utilized by the smaller companies, and it was going to be more likely that I would end up pigeon-holed in the larger corporations. So began a series of jobs at progressively smaller companies.
RE: Switching Jobs
I love what I do and the company I work for. I even feel loyalty toward my company, despite having been laid off by them previously.
However, if a client comes up to me and offers me a significant amount of money more than what I am making to go to another company, am I supposed to say no?
A company will look after their bottom line, and so should you. I love my job, but it is not my life. It is what allows me to do what I want with my family. I am fortunate in that I enjoy my job.
Provided, you don't do some of the things mentioned above, I think you are well within your rights to pursue this opportunity and make your situation better.
RE: Switching Jobs
TTFN
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RE: Switching Jobs
Happened with a vendor of ours. Quit. Went to work for customer. Old company pulled out the 'no-steal' policy. Guy was out of work.
______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
RE: Switching Jobs
Not: "I want to do the work my company does, but do it for you and cut them out."
Nothing wrong with the first statement, since it could imply that he wants to be part of the larger picture, and do more things with the overall project, that he could only do by working at one of the clients businesses.
The second one is where it seems some of you assume he wants to go. That would be unethical.
Now, if he was hired on in situation one, and his new employer decides that they now have the talent to do work X in-house and they cut the former company out of the loop. Well, that is business.
RE: Switching Jobs
Hg
p.s. And it should go without saying that if you want to send them an email, you don't do it from your work account, but I'll say it anyway.
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RE: Switching Jobs
RE: Switching Jobs
I would be uncomfortable with using any other channel than the advertised positions or sending a resume to the HR department on spec.
That is what anyone does who is looking for a job.
You don't need to use your employers contact list (i.e. your official contacts with the company) this way.
Your resume will reveal who you currently work for and once HR know you work for a supplier, they should get comments from the people you are usually in contact with without you putting your contacts in a potentially embarrassing position.
Suppose their are no jobs and you can't get one elsewhere but they now know you are looking to move? They might assume you will move and if you are critical enough to your employer's operations they may decide that future contracts might be at risk and place contracts elsewhere...
OK, its an outside risk but you need to anticipate possible downsides as well as ups.
Also, if you approach your contacts within the company you risk putting them in a difficult position and souring future relationships.... unless you know them very well.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Switching Jobs
HR are looking for any reason to put your resume in the round file cabinet, they are to be avoided in lieu of likely candidates or managers.
Rarely are they going to be diligent enough to get far enough through a resume, or know enough about the actual business part of the business, to realize you work for a supplier.
While it's never actually worked for me, the perceived wisdom of it being "not what you know but who you know" seems to hold in many cases.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Switching Jobs
I just think it needs a bit of care where there is an ongoing client/supplier relationship and where there are potential pitfalls.
I would be very wary of approaching client contacts because it is easy to mistake or misinterpret a working professional relationship as something more. In the business interchanges there is a need to relate to each other in a professional manner no matter what your private opinion is of the other person.
On the other hand, someone with whom you are associated and who knows you well and appreciates your abilities without those constraints may represent a fairer interpretation of their regard for you.
So if I were to approach someone whom I'd worked with in another company, outside the client supplier relationship, I would be confident of doing so.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Switching Jobs
I agree with KENAT that sometimes it is a matter of "who you know". I wont call the client up with an agenda but the next time I talk to him I will let him know that I am looking for opportunities in bigger companies. If he thinks I can be an asset in his company fine or at least he might refer me to other contacts of his.
I am only tilting towards this strategy because applying through the 'front door' hasn't resulted even in an HR call let alone a technical interview. I am fairly confident of my skills and have experience and educational background to back it up.
RE: Switching Jobs
Unless the skills you offer go beyond what you already do for them, or their operation calls for duplication, will they want to increase their own head count?
What you say about the lack of response from HR does tend to justify what KENAT said, unless they haven't responded for the reasons above.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Switching Jobs
That was the strangest thing I think I've seen anyone say anywhere on these boards...
ysm,
Anytime you mention to anyone that you're looking lookign for a new job, you are taking the risk that it gets back to your employers. Doubly so, if you are tlakign to someone with a business or personal relationship with your employers. So be careful how you say what to whom.
RE: Switching Jobs
You are in charge of your career, not your current or future company.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Switching Jobs
a) Yes, this is unethical: My position is that by contacting a client looking for work the employee will undermine the relationship between the employer and the client. This can cause the client to become concerned about the stability of the employer or to be woried that there are problems within the employer. This alone can cause red flags to go up and result with the client go looking for another supplier.
b) Because I've taken the side of the employer stating that too often employees forget where they got their knowledge from? This is absolutely true as too often people forget that they weren't born with knowledge but aquired it over time.
c) Because employers don't take risks in hiring employees?
d) Because I take the position that there is a declining level of professionalism in engineering?
e) Because we now hire based on character as opposed to knowledge?
f) Because I encouraged the employee to leave this employer as he is clearly not happy working in a small company?
g) Something else that I'm missing?
Please help me understand where my thoughts are so wrong.
RE: Switching Jobs
You have a different defination of character than most people.
"Because I take the position that there is a declining level of professionalism in engineering?"
If you hire based on your defination of "Character" you are not going to see the best and brightest, just the timid and compliant.
If you hire them out of the eighth grade and teach them every thing they need to know to work for you, your logic might hold. Msot have four or five years of time and tens of thousands of dollars invested in the knowledge they bring you. Do you reimberse your employees for the knowledge they have gained and brought to you?
"Because employers don't take risks in hiring employees?" Do they take more or less of a risk than does the employee?
"Something else that I'm missing?"
Start by reading "On Liberty" by John Stewart Mill and the Thirteenth ammendment to the US Constitution.
RE: Switching Jobs
You have not missed a thing. That is if you support the feudal system of government.
Employees certainly learn on the job. They also certainly bring fresh knowledge to the employer. That ratio varies greatly from case to case. Is it unethical for an employer to fire an employee then continue to use the knowledge that employee bought to the company.
The reason that approaching your bosses customer is unethical is not because it causes the employer inconvenience or even profit, it is because the relationship was made on the employers time and as a direct result of work paid for by the employer.
If the contact is made without depending on knowledge gained from the employer, like response to an add in the public domain, or even (maybe) as a result of an approach from a head hunter it is then ethical in a free market environment. After all if the boss has a right to fire you, you have an equal right to quit.
Regards
Pat
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