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Switching Jobs
6

Switching Jobs

Switching Jobs

(OP)
I work in a small company and have aspirations to work for larger companies and exploit my higher education.
Our clients are big aerospace companies. I am the technical lead in my company. I interact with the Clients' engineers from the beginning of the project to the end. They have been so far very pleased with my work.
Would it be unethical of me to send them a personal email saying I am looking for a position in their company.


Thanks
YSM

RE: Switching Jobs

If taking such a position would unduly influence their relationship with your current employer, then yes, it would be unethical.  If, as is the more likely case, you are simply looking for a new position and are worried about leaving your current employer in a lurch without a technical lead, then no, I would not consider that unethical.. I would consider it doing what's right for your career.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Switching Jobs

No. Happens all the time.  Glad you asked the question...it shows your integrity; however, you are an individual engineer with aspirations to move forward.  If you told your present company what you intend, they would probably fire you.

McGiverS2000 put it very nicely!

RE: Switching Jobs

And don't worry about the effect on the relationship between the two companies, it's not your problem, unless the enquiry backfires on you.

It may be better to make some discrete enquiries verbally rather than by email.

RE: Switching Jobs

Absolutely this action is unethical. Unfortunately too many employees believe that everything they know they acquired on their own and their employer made no contribution to their carrer. Employers are not given credit for taking tremendous risks in hiring employees. Due to this declining level of professionalism our company now hires based on strength of character as opposed to specific knowledge. A person with a strong character can learn the job and be a positive contributor to the company while a skilled employee with a weak character can destroy the chemistry of a company, especially a small business. For the sake of your current employer I hope that you leave so that hopefully they replace you with someone who better understands and respects their employer. It is also possible that you are not the type of individual who can work in a small business where every employee is critical to the success of the business. Its best for both you and your current employer that you move on as soon as possible.

RE: Switching Jobs

3
Unethical only from the point of view that you are reaching out to an active client and undermines your current employer. I will not be unethical if you were to apply for an advertised position in that company though.

As for weeds' position,I do not think you are bad employee as weeds suggests.  What he describes is the employer's problem not yours. While it is true that employer has some contribution but seeking out other employment for your betterment is not unethical. Keeping their employees happy is employer's responsibility. In free market, especially in the USA, where most employment is at will (of both sides), I really do not have any sympathy for weak employers or employees.


 

Rafiq Bulsara
http://www.srengineersct.com

RE: Switching Jobs

(OP)
Thanks all for your input.
Weeeds, I do understand your point but what is the obligation of the employee. Is he supposed to stay with a company for ever? The company did invest in training the employee but on the employee's part he too must have helped the company grow and create good-will among its clients.
Don't these two things balance out?

Thanks
YSM
  
 

RE: Switching Jobs

I completely disagree with you, weeds...

You are paid to do a job, hopefully within your field of expertise.  If you manage to learn something new during your tenure as an employee, kudos to you... but that newly learned skill in no way should make you beholden to the employer.  They benefit by your experience while you're there.  I wouldn't hire a greenie, no matter how strong his character may be, if I needed a specific area of knowledge in that employee... and as such, I'm going to pay a premium to find someone with that particular skillset.

Sounds like a very short-sighted hiring process, and if everyone thought the way you're claiming to do, there would never be any marketable talent out there because they would all stay with one company...
 

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Switching Jobs

How do most new companies get started??  Someone working in one company went out and started his own - for whatever reason.  Did he take some of the on the job training - sure - but thought he could do it better.  Some failed.

Iococa worked for Ford - then rebuilt Chrysler.  Almost the same for all the early car mfgs.

I think Westinghouse started with Edison.  I don't ever remember hearing of the Edison Light bulb company.  I think he either sold it or someone took the idea and ran with it.

Many industries were spawned by those who worked for Alexander Bell.

Glenn Curtis and all the early airplane mfgs either worked for the Wright Brothers or outright stole their ideas.

Be proessional as stated.  Do NOT steal customer lists, plans, patents, etc.  But if you feel you can do it better - good luck.

Matter of Point.  Most non-compete clauses barely hold up in court.  By the time the lawyers are hired, suits filed, discovery taken, etc - the time limit has run out and they become a moot point.

RE: Switching Jobs

If an employer expects his employees to repay knowledge gained by never resigning he should also be prepared to offer a life long contract at competitive salary and conditions.

It is not unethical to apply for an advertised position.

It is unethical to suggest to a current client that they could cut out your current employer by employing you directly, especially if the only reason you are uniquely qualified is because of very specific on the job learning.

If employers are investing a lot of sensitive IP in a particular employee, in my often not humble enough opinion, they would be very well advised to do it only when tied to a contract with guaranteed time limited employment and specified non compete clauses.

ie 5 year contract and non compete for contract period with existing or previous customers during contract period and some named companies.

This also depends on non compete/restriction of employment laws in your regime.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
 

RE: Switching Jobs

The way you described it is unethical and I agree with what rbulsara stated. It should be an "arm's length" transaction.

If you're going to do what you've just said and you happen to work for the government and the private company is a gov. contractor, it is  not just unethical but also illegal.

Again, following what rbulsara said, there is a right and wrong way of doing it.

RE: Switching Jobs

I had pretty much the reverse of the OP's situation happen multiple times, i.e. offers from supplier companies that I was working with.  I never took up on these, as it would have been difficult for me to move at the time, and I enjoyed where I was.  As time went on...

"I work in a small company and have aspirations to work for larger companies and exploit my higher education"

... it became clear to me that being an engineer for a small company meant that more of my higher (and lower) education could be utilized by the smaller companies, and it was going to be more likely that I would end up pigeon-holed in the larger corporations.  So began a series of jobs at progressively smaller companies.

RE: Switching Jobs

I join the rest in my disagreement with weeds..

I love what I do and the company I work for. I even feel loyalty toward my company, despite having been laid off by them previously.

However, if a client comes up to me and offers me a significant amount of money more than what I am making  to go to another company, am I supposed to say no?

A company will look after their bottom line, and so should you. I love my job, but it is not my life. It is what allows me to do what I want with my family. I am fortunate in that I enjoy my job.  

Provided, you don't do some of the things mentioned above, I think you are well within your rights to pursue this opportunity and make your situation better.

RE: Switching Jobs

A job is a straight quid pro quo transaction, i.e., they get something from you, and you get something from them.  If there is an imbalance, then there would be other stipulations on the job, like a clause that requires you to work one full year in exchange for moving expense considerations.  Given that it's otherwise an at-will employment, terminated at will by either party at any time, then there is no further obligation, other than good will.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Switching Jobs

Just be careful about "No-Steal" policies between the companies.  If the policy exists, your current company may claim the new company 'stole' it's employee...then you are out of work.

Happened with a vendor of ours.  Quit.  Went to work for customer.  Old company pulled out the 'no-steal' policy.  Guy was out of work.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Switching Jobs

Note he said: ". . . saying I am looking for a position in their company."

Not: "I want to do the work my company does, but do it for you and cut them out."

Nothing wrong with the first statement, since it could imply that he wants to be part of the larger picture, and do more things with the overall project, that he could only do by working at one of the clients businesses.

The second one is where it seems some of you assume he wants to go. That would be unethical.

Now, if he was hired on in situation one, and his new employer decides that they now have the talent to do work X in-house and they cut the former company out of the loop.  Well, that is business.  

RE: Switching Jobs

I wouldn't do it in an email, though.  I'd mention it in person, as casually as you can.  No sense in generating a paper trail of "disloyalty".

Hg

p.s. And it should go without saying that if you want to send them an email, you don't do it from your work account, but I'll say it anyway.

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Switching Jobs

Really, just go through the front door, HR, website, etc. If you ask someone, they might take it differently than you think and mention it to your boss.

RE: Switching Jobs

moon161 says it best.
I would be uncomfortable with using any other channel than the advertised positions or sending a resume to the HR department on spec.

That is what anyone does who is looking for a job.

You don't need to use your employers contact list (i.e. your official contacts with the company) this way.

Your resume will reveal who you currently work for and once HR know you work for a supplier, they should get comments from the people you are usually in contact with without you putting your contacts in a potentially embarrassing position.

Suppose their are no jobs and you can't get one elsewhere but they now know you are looking to move? They might assume you will move and if you are critical enough to your employer's operations they may decide that future contracts might be at risk and place contracts elsewhere...
OK, its an outside risk but you need to anticipate possible downsides as well as ups.

Also, if you approach your contacts within the company you risk putting them in a difficult position and souring future relationships.... unless you know them very well.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Switching Jobs

jmw, what have you been smoking?

HR are looking for any reason to put your resume in the round file cabinet, they are to be avoided in lieu of likely candidates or managers.  

Rarely are they going to be diligent enough to get far enough through a resume, or know enough about the actual business part of the business, to realize you work for a supplier.

While it's never actually worked for me, the perceived wisdom of it being "not what you know but who you know" seems to hold in many cases.

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Switching Jobs

Yes, but this isn't looking for a job in another company where you have contacts but which isn't a client or competitor.

I just think it needs a bit of care where there is an ongoing client/supplier relationship and where there are potential pitfalls.

I would be very wary of approaching client contacts because it is easy to mistake or misinterpret a working professional relationship as something more. In the business interchanges there is a need to relate to each other in a professional manner no matter what your private opinion is of the other person.

On the other hand, someone with whom you are associated and who knows you well and appreciates your abilities without those constraints may represent a fairer interpretation of their regard for you.  

So if I were to approach someone whom I'd worked with in another company, outside the client supplier relationship, I would be confident of doing so.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Switching Jobs

(OP)
Thanks all,
I agree with KENAT that sometimes it is a matter of "who you know". I wont call the client up with an agenda but the next time I talk to him I will let him know that I am looking for opportunities in bigger companies. If he thinks I can be an asset in his company fine or at least he might refer me to other contacts of his.

I am only tilting towards this strategy because applying through the 'front door' hasn't resulted even in an HR call let alone a technical interview. I am fairly confident of my skills and have experience and educational background to back it up.  

RE: Switching Jobs

At the moment they get your skills for free.... they come as part of the supplier's package.
Unless the skills you offer go beyond what you already do for them, or their operation calls for duplication, will they want to increase their own head count?

What you say about the lack of response from HR does tend to justify what KENAT said, unless they haven't responded for the reasons above.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Switching Jobs

weeeds

That was the strangest thing I think I've seen anyone say anywhere on these boards...

ysm,

Anytime you mention to anyone that you're looking lookign for a new job, you are taking the risk that it gets back to your employers.  Doubly so, if you are tlakign to someone with a business or personal relationship with your employers.  So be careful how you say what to whom.   

RE: Switching Jobs

In most cases, especially in well defined industry like yours, companies share the same gene pool of people; I have been going between two companies three times in my career.  And in each company I have met ex-employees of the other company.  But just like Bruno said, keep your move as "need to know" only with a few people as possible on both sides of the fence.

You are in charge of your career, not your current or future company.
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Switching Jobs

I'm fascinated with the comments made regarding my post and I would like to learn from this experience. Please explain to me your reactions to the following points I made:

a) Yes, this is unethical: My position is that by contacting a client looking for work the employee will undermine the relationship between the employer and the client. This can cause the client to become concerned about the stability of the employer or to be woried that there are problems within the employer. This alone can cause red flags to go up and result with the client go looking for another supplier.

b) Because I've taken the side of the employer stating that too often employees forget where they got their knowledge from? This is absolutely true as too often people forget that they weren't born with knowledge but aquired it over time.

c) Because employers don't take risks in hiring employees?

d) Because I take the position that there is a declining level of professionalism in engineering?

e) Because we now hire based on character as opposed to knowledge?

f) Because I encouraged the employee to leave this employer as he is clearly not happy working in a small company?

g) Something else that I'm missing?

Please help me understand where my thoughts are so wrong.

RE: Switching Jobs

"Because we now hire based on character as opposed to knowledge?"
You have a different defination of character than most people.

"Because I take the position that there is a declining level of professionalism in engineering?"
If you hire based on your defination of "Character" you are not going to see the best and brightest, just the timid and compliant.  
If you hire them out of the eighth grade and teach them every thing they need to know to work for you, your logic might hold.  Msot have four or five years of time and tens of thousands of dollars invested in the knowledge they bring you.  Do you reimberse your employees for the knowledge they have gained and brought to you?


"Because employers don't take risks in hiring employees?" Do they take more or less of a risk than does the employee?



"Something else that I'm missing?"
Start by reading "On Liberty" by John Stewart Mill and the Thirteenth ammendment to the US Constitution.




 

RE: Switching Jobs

weeeds

You have not missed a thing. That is if you support the feudal system of government.

Employees certainly learn on the job. They also certainly bring fresh knowledge to the employer. That ratio varies greatly from case to case. Is it unethical for an employer to fire an employee then continue to use the knowledge that employee bought to the company.

The reason that approaching your bosses customer is unethical is not because it causes the employer inconvenience or even profit, it is because the relationship was made on the employers time and as a direct result of work paid for by the employer.

If the contact is made without depending on knowledge gained from the employer, like response to an add in the public domain, or even (maybe) as a result of an approach from a head hunter it is then ethical in a free market environment. After all if the boss has a right to fire you, you have an equal right to quit.

   

Regards
Pat
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