Design and installation of used piping
Design and installation of used piping
(OP)
Hi everyone,
I'm working in a project where my customer bought used equipment. It has steam supply piping A-53A and A-53B(6", 4", 3", 2", 1" dia. sizes), and condensate return piping (3", 2", 1 1/2", 1") A-53A. I have the following challanges:
1. Piping was cut in certain spool and transported inside crates to be installed in a new location. All these should be checked for wall thicknesses. Is there any standard prosedures for re-assesment and testing of used piping?
2. If I perform stress analysis to confirm piping to be signed to ASME B31-1 what should be taken into considerations?
3. If I need to replace certain spools, does it make any difference welding used piping with new one?
4. Did anyone have experience moving plants and equipment from one place to another? What else do I need to know?
Thank you,
Curtis
I'm working in a project where my customer bought used equipment. It has steam supply piping A-53A and A-53B(6", 4", 3", 2", 1" dia. sizes), and condensate return piping (3", 2", 1 1/2", 1") A-53A. I have the following challanges:
1. Piping was cut in certain spool and transported inside crates to be installed in a new location. All these should be checked for wall thicknesses. Is there any standard prosedures for re-assesment and testing of used piping?
2. If I perform stress analysis to confirm piping to be signed to ASME B31-1 what should be taken into considerations?
3. If I need to replace certain spools, does it make any difference welding used piping with new one?
4. Did anyone have experience moving plants and equipment from one place to another? What else do I need to know?
Thank you,
Curtis





RE: Design and installation of used piping
RE: Design and installation of used piping
Ask your attorney about other risk of liability implications, especially if you are a registered engineer.
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
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RE: Design and installation of used piping
Our customer bought steam heated lumber drying kilns. It was originally installed in 2003 and we've got all mill test sertificats for original piping supplied.
We were hired to dismantle, crate, move, and install this to a new location.
Some piping seems already corroded and should be replaced without any further testing. The best way is to scrap all piping and supply a new one. But my customer wants to use as much as possible in otder to save money.
Regards,
Curtis
RE: Design and installation of used piping
This is generally not a good thing for anyone involved.
I would install the equipment and deliver the piping to them for assement. Refusing to install any used piping until it has been approved for intallation by a compent person versed in the code of construction.
Just my two cents worth.
A question properly stated is a problem half solved.
Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
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RE: Design and installation of used piping
Some engineering companies take the position that units supplied by others are out of the scope of their responsibility and will not perform any verification of the equipment supplied, other than to ensure that it meets the specifications to which it was supplied. No stress analysis, for example, would be done on any pipe supplied within such a unit. Considering an example easier to grasp, say I order an 8" ball valve speced to ANSI#600 with RTJ flanges to use in my pipeline. We check that its a ball valve to ANSI 600# with RTJ flanges, etc., but I or nobody else will do a stress analysis on tha valve to make sure that the mfgr knew what he was doing when he designed it. If we did, and it passed, but failed later, some courts might hold that we as reviewing engineers should have had some responsibility for later damages. So, if we notice that it was supplied incorrectly, or with a defect, we advise the client to return it, repair or replace it as required to meet the specs. and recover costs from the other parties involved. Normally, even if it was your companies responsibility to do necessary repairs, the typical would be to replace the materials to original spec or better, without any further analysis or confirmation that the original equipment design was sufficient. Anything else, stress analysis of the original design, for example, would only be undertaken by special contract provisions. Does your auto repair store ensure that your car was designed correctly before they replace a part?
"I am sure it can be done. I've seen it on the internet." BigInch's favorite client.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpiIWMWWVco
"Being GREEN isn't easy." Kermit
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com
RE: Design and installation of used piping
the owner's AI will hopefully steer them in the proper direction.
RE: Design and installation of used piping
There are too many caveats on piping as you describe especially when you mention evidence of some corrosion.
Lumber kilns don't have a good reputation to start with and the legal eagles are quick to jump on that fact. The in writing aspect is extremely critical and a witness would be an added benefit. If your forced into a situation of no refusal just use due diligence like you have shown by asking.
These are kilns not autoclaves?
Just for curiosity is this a foreign owned mill?
Just a little of what you can run into.
Depending on the quality of steam used for the original installation you could run into areas of erosion corrosion at 10"to 15" above all elbows at elevation changes as I did. We ended up paying more for inspections than new pipe would have cost. The least part was that every fitter and welder got mad at me because I couldn't change anyone's mind to buy new pipe and fittings.
RE: Design and installation of used piping
It is lumber dry kilns.
As you know a lots of lumber mills closed for last 5 years, due weakness of housing market. Who left is trying cutting costs. There is improving demand lately due to China's appetite and mills are trying to expand in order to fill demand. They can't afford a lot of capital spending because they were losing money recently. And what they are doing is just buying newer kilns in luquidation autcions. It can be done, however, . . .
Curtis
RE: Design and installation of used piping
RE: Design and installation of used piping
I agree that the piping savings in this project may be minimal. I also agree that CS valves can probably be reused with little or no risk.
When water quality suffers, condensate piping gets eaten up pretty fast. As a rule of thumb, I suggest that you discard all condensate piping, especially if it is Schedule 40.
Many organizations suggest that it is a good idea to replace any condensate piping with schedule 80 piping.
RE: Design and installation of used piping
"Your customer is of the penny wise and pound foolish variety."
or "Hope you are not putting your name to the installation as it may end up with you locked up. " and "discard sch 40 piping"
Used equipment is a great bargin and after inspections it can save millions in capital. Nowhere do you have to know what the the total history of the piping is.
Sure, If the process involved had corrosive systems you should replace bad sections. You can do visual and ut checks on all the piping. You could xray 10% of the welds if you want. But a good old hydrotest will also give you an added level of comfort (b31.3 doesn't even require a strenght test of a piping system).
RE: Design and installation of used piping
Specifically, what level of inspection do you require of your piping systems to enable that level of confidence ?
On what standard is your criteria based upon ?
In your experience, have you removed and reinstalled boiler condensate piping systems ?
Were the condensate systems all acceptable for reuse ?
RE: Design and installation of used piping
RE: Design and installation of used piping
What is a strenght test?? Also my commment re- "hope you are not putting your name to the installation" is based on the fact that if the plant operating hours/cycles are not known - temperature excursions are not known then how can you assess the fatigue damage done during it's previous life? I suppose you are able to just look at the steam piping and say it's not seen any damage? By the way how many installations have you actually put your name to ?
RE: Design and installation of used piping
By the time you get a pipe fitter, make measuremnets, square up and level, the time in doing accounts for 80% of the cost, that is where the money is saved in pipoing, the material costs are nothing.
I've moved a steam based Waste heat system along with a Solar Centaur. The deareator and pumps were on a skid along with a marority of the piping and controls. We replaced all the threaded 1" stuff. We ut the 2" to 8" at the low points, and 90's and looked inside the spool pieces removed. We laid new steam and condensate lines along the pipe rack to the reboilers but reused all the piping around the reboiler.
If you are worried about piping, why not worry about the boiler and vessels and say just junk it all?
RE: Design and installation of used piping
I know what a strength test is but you quoted a strenght test!!! Didn't answer my questions really!!!
RE: Design and installation of used piping