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Fusing two engines (welding)
3

Fusing two engines (welding)

Fusing two engines (welding)

(OP)
Hi,

I'm looking into fusing two exiting engines in to a V8 or V10, currently just seeing if there is a possibly way not that I'll be attempting it right away.
Could welding be strong enough to fuse two engines together practically and safely.

I've got two basic ideas,
All based off aluminium blocks for street use.

take two 4 or 5cyl engines and cut the lower end of the blocks at a 45 or 36 degree angle and weld the top parts together the lower part would need to be made custom for a custom crank shaft.

The other idea is to take two V6 engines and cutting them in two and connecting them in the middle running one crankshaft and set of camshafts.

I've heard and seen pretty big holes welded in engines but I'm still very sceptical that it would be practical for joining two engines.

Can anyone give me some more info on this? or other idea's.
Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

some thoughts (besides "why bother"):
assuming you could attach the parts strongly enough, I suspect you'd have trouble getting the right bearing layout and main/pin diameters.  What would you do for main caps?  Also, how would you get appropriate concentricity of the bearing bores?  Rebore them?  What would you use for bearings?  connecting rods?  crankshaft?

I assume you'd change the firing order/spacing.  What would you do for new camshafts?
  
If you fixed all that, you'd probably find that your coolant/oil flow paths are not appropriate for the new layout..
 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Welding is not an accurate process. The alignment of a cylinder bore with the crankshaft and everything else, needs to be accurate. How are you proposing to keep all the tolerances correct?

And if you thought welding was suitable for doing that, I betcha there is a whole bunch of stuff you haven't thought of. V-type engines have two con-rods per crank pin (or two crank-pins per "bay" of cylinders). In-line engines don't have crankshafts that are designed to allow for this.

What is your objective at the end of the day? What are you trying to accomplish that couldn't be done by using an existing engine that already has the configuration you want to achieve?

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

"Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option."

Not sure what you mean by the term "option" here... But considering what you've said quite literally, how about a VW W8 then? I know they were in Passats, maybe Touregs (sp)?

I recently saw a v8 that was two Hayabusa engines stuck together, was about $27K. Google should help you out.



Are you trying to win a bet?

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

(OP)
Well i'm looking in to creating a Honda based engine preferably with V-Tec.

V6 that could be used would be J-Series 60 degree or C-Series 90 degree.

My inline 4 candidate would be K24A (cheap and lots of potential) or G25A inline 5.

Custom crank, and cams are going to be needed and of course firing order.

Main caps would off course need to be custom made in the double inline setup,

For the V6 i was planning to run it standard configuration from Honda just going a custom crank to get it working.


 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I've heard of a few of the car companies doing this for concept cars.  Not sure if they actually ran & if they did if it was ever anything like full throttle.  I'm sure they started with raw castings so all the finish machining was done after all the cutting & welding.  I think they used either electron beam or laser welding.  In short, it was not something you could duplicate for any reasonable cost.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I think it would eventually work out easier to have a new block designed and built from billet.

Be prepared to spend at least $50,000

Stan Sainty of Sainty Speed Works has done this based on several engines. He makes a big V8 based on a big block Ford layout and makes his own 3 valve heads.

He also makes replacement blocks for antique Lancias (I think it's Lancia) as all the originals tend to fail due to galvanic corrosion in the copper oil galleries cast into the aluminium block.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

What are you proposing to do with that engine that couldn't be done better with a Chevrolet small block crate engine?

Why does it have to be Honda-based?

Why do you need VTEC?

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Joining two V6s end to end is possible and practical, although you're up for some serious design time. The trick is to take the drive off the centre. I'm not sure welding is really the correct process to join the two blocks.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

DOHC,

Two I4 or V6 mounted back-to-back as GregLocock suggests would only require an adapter plate, crank coupling, and offset PTO drive at the center.  Plus possibly some reverse rotation cams and accessories for one of the engines.  But no welding or excessive machining would be needed on the blocks.  Lots of welding on a block would result in lots of distortion.  And many blocks are cast from materials that cannot be welded.

You could also consider mounting two I4's side-by-side, with an idler gear drive PTO connecting the two.  Both engines would rotate in the same direction with an idler in the gear drive.

Good luck,
Terry

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I think the only practical solution is the new block route.
This is becoming almost routine using motorcycle engines.
 There is a lot of information on the internet on the Hayabusa V-8.
 
I suppose there is a distant possibility of bolting two engines together to make a flat-8.  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Reinventing the Triumph Stag's V8.

- Steve

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

not that I'd encourage your proposed endeavor, but here's an example of two V12s connected end-to-end to make a V24.  In this case they're nose-to-tail, same rotational direction, with power taken off the rearmost flywheel.  It might be a bit large for your Honda, but fits nicely in a giant dump truck.

http://www.archithings.com/cat-c175-engine-refined-drive-train-and-efficient-body-designs-for-797f-mining-truck/2009/10/23/cat-3524b-high-displacement-engine

 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Many Detroit Diesel engine were connected (bolted) end to end to make for example, a V-24 out of two v-12s.  But htese also had a max rpm of 1800 (synchronous speed for a 60 hz generator) and higher speeds may bring out some harmonics and resonance that could destroy the machine.  Come to think of it, the Detroits ran pretty rough.
 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

(OP)
Thanks for the feedback,

Running the two V6 behind each other as separate engines might be to long although i'm still waiting on definitive block length specs from the J-Series engine.

Why Honda,
Well i'm a huge Honda fan and if I ever do it it will go into my Honda, Sure a Small block chevy could be done but than it isn't a Honda any more and i also like problem solving and projects.

Mugen V8 engines are the expensive (hard to find and way to wide for my application)

The V10 Race engines aren't available and they also will be to costly and wide.  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

So how about the VW "W" configuration engines? See also the Veyron W16.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

In my drag racing days, late 50's early 60's, I got to see a variety of odd combination's.  Side by side Pontiac's, end to end SBC,s, four engine/four wheel drive Buick. V8 Pontiac cut to a V4 and a V2...Chebby V8 cut to an I4 and then an I2.  Two Chevy II I4's mated side by side for a V8ish combo.

These are engine combos I have actually been present when they were raced...some good, some not so good...they ALL ran well enough, though.  I'm pretty sure that none of these combination's made economic sense...who cares?

Doubling up on a Honda? Whatever floats yer boat!  Me?  I'd have a new block cast up.  Most of our rarer vintage engines are being recast...some in Fe, some in Al.  Welding is just NOT a good idea if your looking for ease of mfgr/reliability.

I really don't quite grasp the:

Quote:

Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.

You lost me on that.

Oh, one more thing...If you really want to see the "ultimate" engine combination's...ck the "Tractor Pulls".

Rod  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

(OP)
well with using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option i meant for example a non Honda engine is not what i indeed to use for example the easiest V12 would be a BMW V12.

I'll take a look in to casting.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Sorry, but I'm having difficulty figuring out what you are trying to accomplish.  Using a couple 'cheap' Hondas to throw gobs of $$$ at is, on the face of it, a difficult concept.  Why bother?
Picking an existing 12?  Well if a BMW is okay, what about a Jag? There are lots of them around and cheap, too. They even bolt up to GM stuff.  I'm still not grasping the concept.

To the original question...Welding---NO.  Even if possible it would be cost prohibitive to create something reliable.
Sand cast one offs...It can be done.  I watched a Fiat DOHC head done from scratch many years ago...LOTS of work involved. At least one off sand cast is not too cost prohibitive (would be for me, perhaps not for you). Never watched a billet block being created...Just a guess on my part...Pat's estimate of $50,000 is just wishful thinking.  I'd hold out for a figure closer to $150,000 by the time you get it running.

Rod

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

The figures discussed here are possibly laughable depending on the ops profession/skills. I could buy a big block of billet 60xx, do some drawings, a little looking at other billet blocks of the same approx design, bolt it onto my manual bridgeport, pin a drawing up beside the kettle and a week later have just what I need for say 3000euro.

Its all about what you can do, how much time you have, and what your skills are, which, the op never seemed to have mentioned sadly...  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Brian

I would suggest that if you can make billet aluminium V8 engine blocks for $3000 euro you can make a killing in the Sprint car engine business. I think Dart sells cast aluminium blocks for about $US7000.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Ya just gotta love engineers...

Grab a block of 60xx and run off a couple sketches, ck what other guys are doing (THAT should be interesting) and, throw it on the ole Bridgeport...voila!  A ready to run V8 block and all for less than $4500.  ALL THIS IN A WEEK?  Well, at least you won't need to sit through all those boring production meetings every week.

Brian, have you ever thought about running for political office?  You would be a "natural"!

Rod

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I think the Saintys will sell you a whole billet engine for about $40,000 to $50,000.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Not to say you cannot just buy an engine, of course you can.  The OP wanted to do a V something or other out of POS Hondas.  Now, I may be a bit off base here, but I pretty sure that's not an off the shelf item.

Rod

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

By the time you create a new engine block from billet or by casting and throw in a custom made crank, how much Honda remains? Pistons, rods and cylinder heads? If you're lucky!

Why not just find a suitable short engine and adapt the Honda heads? The result has just as much Honda in it and might be achievable - just.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Pat, post 1, Im sure theres a market, but in Ireland, with our postal costs, maybe not.
I did of course reply to the op in the light that he would be doing this work himself, as he referred to ''Ill'' which to me would point that he intends doing this himself, as paying someone to do this would run up into high cost.
The 3000euro was for materials only. Designing, and analysis would of course be ontop of this cost and time frame, but of course, again, if your doing it yourself, which he seems to want to do, its your own time so 'cost free' as it were.

Post 2, If he knew how to do it he would not ask in the first place I guess, this is true. Which makes me wonder about the ''Ill'' Bit. If I were doing one, Id machine it from billet. If I wanted 3 or more Id cast them. Both of which are far better than welding, or paying someone 50k+ to machine one for you. A good milling hand book a used bridgport and a lot of getting to know the machine is a far better investment in my eyes for this project to be feasible for one guy asking a question on a forum.

Remember, a machinist/billet block maker will machine, not design, so your still stuck with that bit ontop of whatever he wants.

Rod,
, its pretty much that simple in my eyes and would not phase me I have to say. Remember, I said a week machine time, not design.(see above)
As for sitting at meetings, nope, Id be at the mill or drawing board.
What Im saying really is one man is all it takes I feel to do whatever you like as long as your focused.
I got a drawing off a client at 8 in the morn yesterday for 5 engine brackets. Bracket was to hold the alternator, ps pump, and an Idler. I had bracket drawn up by 930, analysis done by 1030, pattern made by 1, part lines marked out by 130, bit of lunch, sand mulled by 230, moulds tamped, gated, and sprued by 4, poured at 6, shook out at 630, in for heat treat directly after to save heating energy, and all spot faced/tapped at 1030. Got them express shipped this morning and they are now on his desk 30hrs later from the time I received his point location drawing. You dont have time for sitting around when its for your yourself your doing it, and not a large company!

As for running for political office! LOL, considering we have possibly the worst government in the world here in Ireland at the minute(Check out Jay Lenos video) I dont think it would be quiet fast paced enough for me and a bit too messy so Ill stay away from that!.

To the op, best of luck with what ever you do, I suggest you look at last months racecar engineer, a 'normal' guy designed/cast a v8 block for two bike heads.

I hope Rod and Pat, that I have not offended you in any way with my post, its just as I see it, and do things. Im either at the mill, designing, testing, or melting every day, and sometimes into the small hours.

Material costs are pretty low considering, If your doing it for someone else, then so be it, you get paid for all your time milling and designing. But, the odd project you do yourself, all you need to spend on is the material. Your free time is 'free' right?

Brian.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

If you need some inspiration of what you CAN accomplish, go here:

http://www.milleroffy.com/index.htm

Harry, Leo, and Fred.

Harry dreams it up, Leo draws it. Fred grinds away everything that doesn't look like say, a sixteen cylinder, double overhead cam, four valves per cylinder, "V" engine.

This back in 1927.

If you ever get a chance to look at a Miller race car up close, take it, Every part has a drawing. Every part is finished to be esthetically pleasing as part of the design. Art Deco masterpieces that dominated the racing world.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

If you have ever machined a large part from "billet" ( I hate that word) you would know all them little holes & stuff move around a bit as the job progresses.

 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I've long contemplated the feasibility of making a V8 from two existing fours by "simply" milling off the crankcase porting of the blocks, leaving just the water jacketed cylinder area, and attaching those to a new crankcase with extremely long head bolts/studs.

The "only" problem then becomes the cylinder heads, since one would need to be mirrored if you didn't want to have a timing chain or belt at each end, like the Ford SOHC V6.

Nothing insurmountable, of course, but the question gets back to "why bother".

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Sainty recently quoted me $40,000 for a long block engine, BUT it was an obsolete design used engine for which he already has the computer models and has amortised their cost.

That model was a 3 piece design with a crankcase and two separate cylinder blocks.

The new design was a one piece. I believe the change was based on availability of suitable sized billets.

I expect he would want a reasonable fee to redesign the block to suit Honda heads. There is also the issue of cam drives especially for the wrong side head.

In my opinion the only OEM Honda bits eventually used would be heads cams(maybe) valves etc and just maybe pistons but almost certainly not rods as the offset to run two rods on the one journal would be a problem.

The crank would be a full custom design as would all the ancillaries.

 

Regards
Pat
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RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Sainty engines, as far as I know, being dragrace engines don't have water passages - I don't know if water jackets etc. can be machined in.

Thruthefence - if you don't like the word "billet" - what word would you use? - "Lump?" maybe.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

water jackets can be machined in if you use removable liners, for sure.   

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Of course, the word "billet" may be correct in the context of this discussion, ie starting from a large "lump" of aluminum alloy, straight from the foundry to machine shop. My beef, and (it's a personality defect, I suppose)is the application of the word to Door lock knobs, horn buttons, air cleaner covers, accelerator pedals etc.

My apologies if any one was offended by my prejudices and narrow-minded thinking, regarding the word "Billet" when used for marketing purposes.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Brian, I just re-read your post on your turn time for (what seems) a pretty complex component, you had a pattern made in 2 1/5 hours? And the raw castings (five of them) out of the mold for machining 3 1/2 hrs later? After cooling down, these were machines & inspected and out the door at 10:30? (all on that manual Bridgeport, I assume?)

I have to say your production efficiency is off the chart. You really need to open a consulting firm to teach these skills to the manufacturing world in general. Maybe bring some of these Jobs back from the far east!  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

That is correct thruthefence. I haven't had a quiet day in 6 months since I started at it proper. No-one is at it this side of the woods. Ill do anything from 1 part upwards. Ill upload a picture of an example in a small while.

B.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I don't think Pat and I are easily offended, Brian.  My green eyed, red haired Irish wife say's I'm not only an Ahole, but a "perfect Ahole".  I rather relish in the title!!! ;o)

I don't doubt your ability, just insanely jealous.  To bad you are not a bit closer to Socal.  I have parts out now that have been promised for over three months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Irish wife! You better be careful so Rod haha!! Irish women have great tempers! I almost have a wife too, but not for another while, black eyes and brown eyes, just as dangerous!!

I wouldnt be jealous Rod, anything can be done if you set your mind to it as you know. I had to think of something to do...rural Ireland In a massive recession does not offer a whole pile, you have to make your own way.

BG.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Meant to say black hair!! Black eyes, what was I thinking...good god!

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

re irish woman w/ black eyes - must be a drinking joke in there somewhere

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

I've learned my limits...Must be doing something right, she's kept me here for almost 50 years.

Something else, country Irish lasses are great cooks.  At least mine is!

Rod

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Nice work indeed! Like Rod, I'm a little jealous!

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Wow...this thread has worked a miracle...Sorta...

One:  Bragging on the wife's cooking...ended me up at Bob's Big Boy for lunch.
Two:  Phone message...Parts are ready to pick up Friday!
I really mean "wow"...I was not kidding about the three months to make four connecting rods for a 1930 Ford!!!

Rod

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

More than a little.

I am always enthralled and envious when I watch a really skilled machinist doing freehand work on a mill or lathe. A friend turns visually perfect spheres on a lathe to make things like the brass knobs on brass beds. I just stand there and stare in awe.

I promised myself years ago that if ever I have enough money to live in comfort for the rest of my life plus a few hundred thousand left over, I will set up a tool room quality workshop and go back to trade school and learn to use it.  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

My mentors at my first job, graduates of the Henry Ford Trade School, described one of their first projects.  

They were given a brass cube, a file, and a micrometer.  The objective was to turn the cube into a perfect sphere, using only the file.  The student who ended up with the biggest sphere got the top grade, and so on.  

Next assignment:  same deal, starting with a steel cube.

They didn't get to touch the machine tools until they learned to really drive a file.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

ugh, my effing HS woodshop teacher required hand sanding of EVERYTHING, no matter how big.  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

On the subject of fast times getting things made - the place that does my machining is working on maybe 20 to 50 similar jobs at the same time - so their time to make something is the typical couple of weeks (if I'm lucky).  Presumably BrianGar had to drop everybody else's jobs to get this one done. Nevertheless - it is almost miraculously fast.
 Thru etc. I see your point about the word "billet" and I am inclined to agree.
  On the subject of Hayabusa (and other motorcycle engine) V-8s - with a bike engine they use the removable cylinder block as well as the heads - only a crankcase is needed which greatly simplifies the job.
  If DOHC is Honda fan maybe he could join a couple of Fireblades.      

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

tbuelna;
When I see something like this, I am awed & humbled. Talk about focus!

Thanks for the link.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Mike, Indeed, many jokes could be made in a very short time!

I was originally a cabinet maker before turning to the harder stuff. I guess cutting 12 finger dovetails will teach you a thing or two on accuracy. A good dovetail joint will 'fart' when you push them together. One with fingers say 3 thou smaller will not. To test myself, I once cut a ten finger doveltail joint by hand in 3/8 brass as my project for school leaving back in 99, sadly I have no pictures as it was before the digital camera came into my hands. All I have from it is the image attached. Its the first and only cert Ive ever got. The rest was a lot of hard work, and trial and error. After leaving, I did cabinetmaking for a lot of yrs but I finally had to hang it up when the above took over. Id rate it as a valuable skill to have though when it comes to pattern making.

In ref to Mikes sphere post, I like that one, I sometimes test guys abilities with the long side flat short side square one.
Rectangular piece of bright mild steel, The long side is flattened, the short side is then squared off that side. A small engineers square is placed, stock against long side, blade on the short side end. A drop of paraffin is placed on piece and blade. If the paraffin makes it way through between blade and end of piece, its a fail.  Its amazing how many cannot do this simple and Important exercise by hand. It helps I feel to make them appreciate machine tools a little more.

HrHtex, I try not to drop other work, Its a niche market and theres an orderly queue. People than can wait, dont mind waiting, but even at that that wait is short once I let them know I have started. I also care about it all from start to finish, which, after visiting some factories in ShenZhen makes the whole deal even more special for the client involved, they get what_they_want exactly, and small numbers are not a problem.

tbuelna, thats really great, focus is a great thing, the rest is hard work once you have your mind made up and it all figured out.

Perhaps all this ranting should be in Pats pub, but I think you have to be a member or invited in there. I thought you get in when you donate to the site, but I was wrong. Some day perhaps! Save going way off topic, sorry OP!

BG

 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Consider this my ask, thanks Pat, theres much to discuss at times!

Brian.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

The 1/5 scale model of the Rolls-Royce Eagle is astounding.  Does anyone know anything about the original engine?  It seems curious that what appears to be a post-WWII design would be laid out as a sleeve-valve engine.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Well, this thread certainly didn't go where I expected, based on the OP.  I'm not worthy!

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

This thread is so professional and serious that I forgot for a while that I wasn't reading in the Pub.

rmw

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

   V-8 from a Suzuki? V-8 from a twin Ducati?  v-12 from a Kawasaki 6cyl.? v-12 from a Honda CBX ?? Check out the Kneeslider..it's all been done and more WOW..  http://thekneeslider.com/

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

For that matter, I've heard of a NASCAR block falling into the hands of a "civilian", who commissioned (Dart?) to produce a billet aluminum replica, with various alterations to suit his needs.  Different heck height, allowance for a longer stroke, that sort of thing.  The only things that really stuck in my mind were that the NASCAR engine's oiling system was described as "priority camshaft", which he had done away with as he wasn't going to be using flat tappets, and that it was done for ~$25k, which seems downright cheap, given all that had to be done.

 

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

hey BrianGar im from ireland aswell and do some hobby casting of alu and machining.
your pattern making skills are top notch.
one thing i lack :-/
you got a website or anything i can have a look at?

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

DtDynamics, No no site yet, I must setup something sometime, Ive been meaning to.

Nice to see a fellow Irish man at it too, not many into it In Ireland..or anything else for that matter in the line of this stuff,
Perhaps we might meet sometime, you never know!

Brian,   

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

DOHC's stated desire to build a "Honda V8" remined me of this post I read on www.speedtalk.com. Larry is the real deal so I have no doubt that it's true. See his website for information about him, his company, and it's relationship with Honda, www.theoldone.com. Larry is the most tight lipped man in motorsports, so this may be the only mention of the V8 you'll find until it's official realease. It should be interesting to see.

Re: Favorite Non OEM Car Engine
by Larry Widmer » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm

While it's months away, we are working on a Honda V8. It'll be using left and right-hand K series cylinder heads. Maximum displacement looks to be just over 5-liters. We have several international partners involved in the project.

Vernon

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Wow. Looks like a lot of work - more of a U8 than V8. One of the (4cyl)engines has to turn backwards. A lot of potential for torsional vibrations in the coupling shaft. Looks like the cranks were just dropped any old place for the crankcase photo - the phasing looks stage. Are you planning simultaneous or alternate firing? That will probably have a considerable influence on TV's.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Can I open this thread up to a discussion on how it might be possible to join 2 engines longitudinally?

E.g. create a V12 out of 2 V8s?

Also, if this is not feasible with a block, what about heads?

Regards, Ian

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

A V-16, you mean?  

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

You can "join" them by having them separately mounted, with a coupling (or drive shaft) between them that is designed to absorb misalignment that will be present, provided that the end of the crankshafts that you are joining is capable of handling the drive torque. Where you are taking power out of the system requires consideration, too. Picture two normal auto engines with a flywheel on the end. Join those two ends with a drive shaft and take the power off via this drive shaft (between the two engines) and both engine's crankshafts see entirely normal loads (as if they weren't joined) - of course, this requires one of those engines to be reverse rotation as viewed relative to its own "local co-ordinate system". If you use the back end of one engine coupled to the front of the next - provided the front pulley is capable of taking the load - and you take power off the back of the second engine, then all the torque from the first engine passes through the second engine's crankshaft, which may or may not be okay. Torsional resonance is another consideration here.

It is certainly possible to overcome these issues if the system is properly designed, and it has been done many times.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Detroit Diesel used to sell longitudinally coupled engines for marine use, up to 24 cylinders as two V12s, at least.
They don't do it so much anymore.

One reason has to be the disproportionate difficulty of servicing the after engine's timing chain or gears.

In general you can't do it with stock engines because the usual crank nose drive is only good for something like 75 horsepower; so to start, the after engine needs a special crank, housing, balancer, etc., to carry the extra torque from the forward engine.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

gruntguru
yea its more of a U than a V, gives more room in between for the future intercooler. We plan on even firing but can easily try other phasing. can you explain the potential for torsional vibrations in the coupling/output shaft? This motor will only see racing and dyno use so it will be apart quite often.  

Rick Yacoucci Nebulous Theorem II #988
Fastest 4 cylinder Bonneville 2 way average 352.525 mph
Nebulous Theorem III #788 Fastest Unblown Flathead 280 mph
http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Mr. Halloran - Somewhere I recall seeing a twin engined dragster from the 50's or 60's that used two supercharged V8s mounted side by side.

The bizarre, couldn't-believe-that-worked part is that one engine was used for power takeoff and had a standard type flywheel and clutch.  The other engine, however, was turned around, had a flywheel mounted to the crank snout, and the two flywheels' ring gears were meshed together!

Apparently they had a lot of problems, but their improvised engine coupler wasn't one of them.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Yeah, Mickey Thompson's four-engine LSR machine coupled the laterally paired engines by means of ring gear teeth, doubled up, and Dutch-pinned to the flywheels.  It worked long enough, I guess.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Turborick, in a 4 cylinder in-line engine, the crankshaft rotation speed is not uniform, because the pistons all reach maximum kinetic energy together (halfway down/up the strokes) and all reach minimum kinetic energy together (TDC/BDC). If you phase both engines to be simultaneous-firing then both engines will accelerate and decelerate simultaneously twice per revolution. If you phase them to be alternate-firing then one engine will be trying to accelerate while the other is trying to decelerate, and the difference between the two has to be accounted for *somehow*. Either you rigidly couple the engines together so that the full acceleration/deceleration loads can be transferred between the two engines without failure, or you very flexibly couple the engines together so that the slight phase angle differences between the two crankshafts can be accommodated without failure. Trouble with *that* is that every spring/mass system is associated with a resonance frequency. If you can assure that this frequency is either well below or well above the normal operating speed of the engines then it doesn't matter. If the resonance speed is within the normal operating speed range then it's going to be trouble.

I'm thinking it will be easier to make the engines simultaneous-firing so that you don't have to deal with this.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Turborick. Agree with everything Brian said, plus the fact that the coupling shaft introduces a "spring" between the two rotating "masses".

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

It all makes sense, I was thinking on how to make life easier for the drive-train. so you think if I phase the engines together I shouldn't need any dampening between them?

Rick Yacoucci Nebulous Theorem II #988
Fastest 4 cylinder Bonneville 2 way average 352.525 mph
Nebulous Theorem III #788 Fastest Unblown Flathead 280 mph
http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Lets just say that's your best chance of avoiding damping between the cranks. On the other hand, simultaneous firing will maximise the speed/torque variation applied to the drivetrain.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Quote:

E.g. create a V12 out of 2 V8s?

Quote:

A V-16, you mean?
No, slice the blocks so the front 3 pairs of one and the rear 3 pairs of the other can be joined to make a 6 pair block with a single (new ) crank.
I'm assuming of course that the 'middle' 2 pairs of the V8 block casting are more similar to each other than they are to either the front or rear pairs.

In ASCII art terms:

If DOOQ is one bank of the V8, then the V12 is DOOOOQ

Regards, Ian

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Or you could slice through the end bores and make a V14.

Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

You should read about the H1 V8. Its made of two Suzuki Hayabusa 1300 motocycle engines. The latest version of the Hayabusa makes 197hp inline-4, and V8 will make 394hp reving to 10krpm . See the
http://www.h1v8.com/ website. It contains lots of information and building process of the engine, with photos.

There are too many reason why want to join two engines into one. Past projects in the history I ever seen are all done on motorcycle engines. There a Wiliam's F1 engineer did such setup in UK many years ago (I forgot his name) who build a 2.0L V8 with 300hp .

Consider the weight of these engines. Imagine you can have a V8 engine that weight just about 100kg . This is even less than the weight of a typical inline-4 out of a 4-seater passenger car.

The Suzuki Hayabusa engine is a well known tough and light weight engine. There are many turbocharger kit flowing around and reported over 600hp output just for the inline-4. That means 1200hp on a V8. This engine is very attractive and is very good choice for light weight kit cars.

However, building such engine is very costly. To do it properly, you need a custom crankshaft. The H1 V8 didn't use custom camshafts because it kept the original firing order which is not a totally balanced V8. It is a pair of inline 4. H1 V8 took the way to sacrifice perfect balance, and choose a 72 degree V angle to minimize the engine packaging. To get the project properly done and achieving a fully balanced V8 engine, the engine should be 90 degree V, with each cylinder in 90 degree firing order. It will require a different crankshaft and custom camshaft. To save the cost of custom camshaft and achieving fully balance 8 cylinder engine is to go for boxer flat 8 setup. But this will have issues about oil/water flow in the engine which is not design how it meant to .

Welding is not a proper process of joining the two engine blocks. It will be too difficult to achieve the required tolerance and stiffness of the crank case. The crank case should be redesigned and CNC machined to achieve the proper tolerance. You will need to redesign the oil pumping system as well.

I think it does worth to redo the Hayabusa V8 engines to 90 degree, but who will have a deep pocket to support this crazy project? Unless I build my own kit car, then twin Hayabusa V8 is a must have item.

For joining other engines, what is the ultimate goal?

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Quote:

For joining other engines, what is the ultimate goal?
To create a 5.5l V12 diesel out of 2x 4.0l V8 diesels (with a destroked crank).

Regards, Ian

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Find two decent inline-6, the balanced V angle is 60 degree. Why do you want to destroke the engine?

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

So I would get a 5.5l V12 not a 6.0l V12.

The application, the old diesel LMP1 regulations, have now gone. So it's purely a 'thought excercise' but I'm still curious none the less.

How would joining the inline 6 blocks be easier that the V8s?

Regards, Ian

RE: Fusing two engines (welding)

Ian,

It will be nothing easy. the process is the same. For V12, it will be more expensive, your cam, crank will be longer and require more machining work . The larger than engine, the stronger the need for the crankcase and more difficulty in tolerance control.

 

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