Fusing two engines (welding)
Fusing two engines (welding)
(OP)
Hi,
I'm looking into fusing two exiting engines in to a V8 or V10, currently just seeing if there is a possibly way not that I'll be attempting it right away.
Could welding be strong enough to fuse two engines together practically and safely.
I've got two basic ideas,
All based off aluminium blocks for street use.
take two 4 or 5cyl engines and cut the lower end of the blocks at a 45 or 36 degree angle and weld the top parts together the lower part would need to be made custom for a custom crank shaft.
The other idea is to take two V6 engines and cutting them in two and connecting them in the middle running one crankshaft and set of camshafts.
I've heard and seen pretty big holes welded in engines but I'm still very sceptical that it would be practical for joining two engines.
Can anyone give me some more info on this? or other idea's.
Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.
I'm looking into fusing two exiting engines in to a V8 or V10, currently just seeing if there is a possibly way not that I'll be attempting it right away.
Could welding be strong enough to fuse two engines together practically and safely.
I've got two basic ideas,
All based off aluminium blocks for street use.
take two 4 or 5cyl engines and cut the lower end of the blocks at a 45 or 36 degree angle and weld the top parts together the lower part would need to be made custom for a custom crank shaft.
The other idea is to take two V6 engines and cutting them in two and connecting them in the middle running one crankshaft and set of camshafts.
I've heard and seen pretty big holes welded in engines but I'm still very sceptical that it would be practical for joining two engines.
Can anyone give me some more info on this? or other idea's.
Using a existing V8/10/12 isn't a option.





RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
assuming you could attach the parts strongly enough, I suspect you'd have trouble getting the right bearing layout and main/pin diameters. What would you do for main caps? Also, how would you get appropriate concentricity of the bearing bores? Rebore them? What would you use for bearings? connecting rods? crankshaft?
I assume you'd change the firing order/spacing. What would you do for new camshafts?
If you fixed all that, you'd probably find that your coolant/oil flow paths are not appropriate for the new layout..
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
And if you thought welding was suitable for doing that, I betcha there is a whole bunch of stuff you haven't thought of. V-type engines have two con-rods per crank pin (or two crank-pins per "bay" of cylinders). In-line engines don't have crankshafts that are designed to allow for this.
What is your objective at the end of the day? What are you trying to accomplish that couldn't be done by using an existing engine that already has the configuration you want to achieve?
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Not sure what you mean by the term "option" here... But considering what you've said quite literally, how about a VW W8 then? I know they were in Passats, maybe Touregs (sp)?
I recently saw a v8 that was two Hayabusa engines stuck together, was about $27K. Google should help you out.
Are you trying to win a bet?
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
V6 that could be used would be J-Series 60 degree or C-Series 90 degree.
My inline 4 candidate would be K24A (cheap and lots of potential) or G25A inline 5.
Custom crank, and cams are going to be needed and of course firing order.
Main caps would off course need to be custom made in the double inline setup,
For the V6 i was planning to run it standard configuration from Honda just going a custom crank to get it working.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Be prepared to spend at least $50,000
Stan Sainty of Sainty Speed Works has done this based on several engines. He makes a big V8 based on a big block Ford layout and makes his own 3 valve heads.
He also makes replacement blocks for antique Lancias (I think it's Lancia) as all the originals tend to fail due to galvanic corrosion in the copper oil galleries cast into the aluminium block.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Why does it have to be Honda-based?
Why do you need VTEC?
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Two I4 or V6 mounted back-to-back as GregLocock suggests would only require an adapter plate, crank coupling, and offset PTO drive at the center. Plus possibly some reverse rotation cams and accessories for one of the engines. But no welding or excessive machining would be needed on the blocks. Lots of welding on a block would result in lots of distortion. And many blocks are cast from materials that cannot be welded.
You could also consider mounting two I4's side-by-side, with an idler gear drive PTO connecting the two. Both engines would rotate in the same direction with an idler in the gear drive.
Good luck,
Terry
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
This is becoming almost routine using motorcycle engines.
There is a lot of information on the internet on the Hayabusa V-8.
I suppose there is a distant possibility of bolting two engines together to make a flat-8.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
- Steve
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Running the two V6 behind each other as separate engines might be to long although i'm still waiting on definitive block length specs from the J-Series engine.
Why Honda,
Well i'm a huge Honda fan and if I ever do it it will go into my Honda, Sure a Small block chevy could be done but than it isn't a Honda any more and i also like problem solving and projects.
Mugen V8 engines are the expensive (hard to find and way to wide for my application)
The V10 Race engines aren't available and they also will be to costly and wide.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
These are engine combos I have actually been present when they were raced...some good, some not so good...they ALL ran well enough, though. I'm pretty sure that none of these combination's made economic sense...who cares?
Doubling up on a Honda? Whatever floats yer boat! Me? I'd have a new block cast up. Most of our rarer vintage engines are being recast...some in Fe, some in Al. Welding is just NOT a good idea if your looking for ease of mfgr/reliability.
I really don't quite grasp the:
You lost me on that.
Oh, one more thing...If you really want to see the "ultimate" engine combination's...ck the "Tractor Pulls".
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I'll take a look in to casting.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Picking an existing 12? Well if a BMW is okay, what about a Jag? There are lots of them around and cheap, too. They even bolt up to GM stuff. I'm still not grasping the concept.
To the original question...Welding---NO. Even if possible it would be cost prohibitive to create something reliable.
Sand cast one offs...It can be done. I watched a Fiat DOHC head done from scratch many years ago...LOTS of work involved. At least one off sand cast is not too cost prohibitive (would be for me, perhaps not for you). Never watched a billet block being created...Just a guess on my part...Pat's estimate of $50,000 is just wishful thinking. I'd hold out for a figure closer to $150,000 by the time you get it running.
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Its all about what you can do, how much time you have, and what your skills are, which, the op never seemed to have mentioned sadly...
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I would suggest that if you can make billet aluminium V8 engine blocks for $3000 euro you can make a killing in the Sprint car engine business. I think Dart sells cast aluminium blocks for about $US7000.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Also if DOHC had the skills you suggest he would know better than to ask the question he first posted.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Grab a block of 60xx and run off a couple sketches, ck what other guys are doing (THAT should be interesting) and, throw it on the ole Bridgeport...voila! A ready to run V8 block and all for less than $4500. ALL THIS IN A WEEK? Well, at least you won't need to sit through all those boring production meetings every week.
Brian, have you ever thought about running for political office? You would be a "natural"!
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Why not just find a suitable short engine and adapt the Honda heads? The result has just as much Honda in it and might be achievable - just.
Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I did of course reply to the op in the light that he would be doing this work himself, as he referred to ''Ill'' which to me would point that he intends doing this himself, as paying someone to do this would run up into high cost.
The 3000euro was for materials only. Designing, and analysis would of course be ontop of this cost and time frame, but of course, again, if your doing it yourself, which he seems to want to do, its your own time so 'cost free' as it were.
Post 2, If he knew how to do it he would not ask in the first place I guess, this is true. Which makes me wonder about the ''Ill'' Bit. If I were doing one, Id machine it from billet. If I wanted 3 or more Id cast them. Both of which are far better than welding, or paying someone 50k+ to machine one for you. A good milling hand book a used bridgport and a lot of getting to know the machine is a far better investment in my eyes for this project to be feasible for one guy asking a question on a forum.
Remember, a machinist/billet block maker will machine, not design, so your still stuck with that bit ontop of whatever he wants.
Rod,
, its pretty much that simple in my eyes and would not phase me I have to say. Remember, I said a week machine time, not design.(see above)
As for sitting at meetings, nope, Id be at the mill or drawing board.
What Im saying really is one man is all it takes I feel to do whatever you like as long as your focused.
I got a drawing off a client at 8 in the morn yesterday for 5 engine brackets. Bracket was to hold the alternator, ps pump, and an Idler. I had bracket drawn up by 930, analysis done by 1030, pattern made by 1, part lines marked out by 130, bit of lunch, sand mulled by 230, moulds tamped, gated, and sprued by 4, poured at 6, shook out at 630, in for heat treat directly after to save heating energy, and all spot faced/tapped at 1030. Got them express shipped this morning and they are now on his desk 30hrs later from the time I received his point location drawing. You dont have time for sitting around when its for your yourself your doing it, and not a large company!
As for running for political office! LOL, considering we have possibly the worst government in the world here in Ireland at the minute(Check out Jay Lenos video) I dont think it would be quiet fast paced enough for me and a bit too messy so Ill stay away from that!.
To the op, best of luck with what ever you do, I suggest you look at last months racecar engineer, a 'normal' guy designed/cast a v8 block for two bike heads.
I hope Rod and Pat, that I have not offended you in any way with my post, its just as I see it, and do things. Im either at the mill, designing, testing, or melting every day, and sometimes into the small hours.
Material costs are pretty low considering, If your doing it for someone else, then so be it, you get paid for all your time milling and designing. But, the odd project you do yourself, all you need to spend on is the material. Your free time is 'free' right?
Brian.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://www.milleroffy.com/index.htm
Harry, Leo, and Fred.
Harry dreams it up, Leo draws it. Fred grinds away everything that doesn't look like say, a sixteen cylinder, double overhead cam, four valves per cylinder, "V" engine.
This back in 1927.
If you ever get a chance to look at a Miller race car up close, take it, Every part has a drawing. Every part is finished to be esthetically pleasing as part of the design. Art Deco masterpieces that dominated the racing world.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
The "only" problem then becomes the cylinder heads, since one would need to be mirrored if you didn't want to have a timing chain or belt at each end, like the Ford SOHC V6.
Nothing insurmountable, of course, but the question gets back to "why bother".
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
That model was a 3 piece design with a crankcase and two separate cylinder blocks.
The new design was a one piece. I believe the change was based on availability of suitable sized billets.
I expect he would want a reasonable fee to redesign the block to suit Honda heads. There is also the issue of cam drives especially for the wrong side head.
In my opinion the only OEM Honda bits eventually used would be heads cams(maybe) valves etc and just maybe pistons but almost certainly not rods as the offset to run two rods on the one journal would be a problem.
The crank would be a full custom design as would all the ancillaries.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Thruthefence - if you don't like the word "billet" - what word would you use? - "Lump?" maybe.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
He does some with water passages milled into the block and heads.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
My apologies if any one was offended by my prejudices and narrow-minded thinking, regarding the word "Billet" when used for marketing purposes.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I have to say your production efficiency is off the chart. You really need to open a consulting firm to teach these skills to the manufacturing world in general. Maybe bring some of these Jobs back from the far east!
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
B.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I don't doubt your ability, just insanely jealous. To bad you are not a bit closer to Socal. I have parts out now that have been promised for over three months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I wouldnt be jealous Rod, anything can be done if you set your mind to it as you know. I had to think of something to do...rural Ireland In a massive recession does not offer a whole pile, you have to make your own way.
BG.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Something else, country Irish lasses are great cooks. At least mine is!
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
One: Bragging on the wife's cooking...ended me up at Bob's Big Boy for lunch.
Two: Phone message...Parts are ready to pick up Friday!
I really mean "wow"...I was not kidding about the three months to make four connecting rods for a 1930 Ford!!!
Rod
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I am always enthralled and envious when I watch a really skilled machinist doing freehand work on a mill or lathe. A friend turns visually perfect spheres on a lathe to make things like the brass knobs on brass beds. I just stand there and stare in awe.
I promised myself years ago that if ever I have enough money to live in comfort for the rest of my life plus a few hundred thousand left over, I will set up a tool room quality workshop and go back to trade school and learn to use it.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
They were given a brass cube, a file, and a micrometer. The objective was to turn the cube into a perfect sphere, using only the file. The student who ended up with the biggest sphere got the top grade, and so on.
Next assignment: same deal, starting with a steel cube.
They didn't get to touch the machine tools until they learned to really drive a file.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Thru etc. I see your point about the word "billet" and I am inclined to agree.
On the subject of Hayabusa (and other motorcycle engine) V-8s - with a bike engine they use the removable cylinder block as well as the heads - only a crankcase is needed which greatly simplifies the job.
If DOHC is Honda fan maybe he could join a couple of Fireblades.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://www.enginehistory.org/eagle_22.htm
Regards,
Terry
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
When I see something like this, I am awed & humbled. Talk about focus!
Thanks for the link.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I was originally a cabinet maker before turning to the harder stuff. I guess cutting 12 finger dovetails will teach you a thing or two on accuracy. A good dovetail joint will 'fart' when you push them together. One with fingers say 3 thou smaller will not. To test myself, I once cut a ten finger doveltail joint by hand in 3/8 brass as my project for school leaving back in 99, sadly I have no pictures as it was before the digital camera came into my hands. All I have from it is the image attached. Its the first and only cert Ive ever got. The rest was a lot of hard work, and trial and error. After leaving, I did cabinetmaking for a lot of yrs but I finally had to hang it up when the above took over. Id rate it as a valuable skill to have though when it comes to pattern making.
In ref to Mikes sphere post, I like that one, I sometimes test guys abilities with the long side flat short side square one.
Rectangular piece of bright mild steel, The long side is flattened, the short side is then squared off that side. A small engineers square is placed, stock against long side, blade on the short side end. A drop of paraffin is placed on piece and blade. If the paraffin makes it way through between blade and end of piece, its a fail. Its amazing how many cannot do this simple and Important exercise by hand. It helps I feel to make them appreciate machine tools a little more.
HrHtex, I try not to drop other work, Its a niche market and theres an orderly queue. People than can wait, dont mind waiting, but even at that that wait is short once I let them know I have started. I also care about it all from start to finish, which, after visiting some factories in ShenZhen makes the whole deal even more special for the client involved, they get what_they_want exactly, and small numbers are not a problem.
tbuelna, thats really great, focus is a great thing, the rest is hard work once you have your mind made up and it all figured out.
Perhaps all this ranting should be in Pats pub, but I think you have to be a member or invited in there. I thought you get in when you donate to the site, but I was wrong. Some day perhaps! Save going way off topic, sorry OP!
BG
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Brian.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_TDSTNPGzU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_V-3420
http://www.456fis.org/ALLISON_V-3420_ENGINE.htm
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm
for site rules
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
rmw
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsmiIeAkE-o
ht
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
your pattern making skills are top notch.
one thing i lack :-/
you got a website or anything i can have a look at?
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Nice to see a fellow Irish man at it too, not many into it In Ireland..or anything else for that matter in the line of this stuff,
Perhaps we might meet sometime, you never know!
Brian,
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Re: Favorite Non OEM Car Engine
by Larry Widmer » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm
While it's months away, we are working on a Honda V8. It'll be using left and right-hand K series cylinder heads. Maximum displacement looks to be just over 5-liters. We have several international partners involved in the project.
Vernon
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://bonnevillestreamliner.com/2000cc-v8-engine/
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
E.g. create a V12 out of 2 V8s?
Also, if this is not feasible with a block, what about heads?
Regards, Ian
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
It is certainly possible to overcome these issues if the system is properly designed, and it has been done many times.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
They don't do it so much anymore.
One reason has to be the disproportionate difficulty of servicing the after engine's timing chain or gears.
In general you can't do it with stock engines because the usual crank nose drive is only good for something like 75 horsepower; so to start, the after engine needs a special crank, housing, balancer, etc., to carry the extra torque from the forward engine.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
yea its more of a U than a V, gives more room in between for the future intercooler. We plan on even firing but can easily try other phasing. can you explain the potential for torsional vibrations in the coupling/output shaft? This motor will only see racing and dyno use so it will be apart quite often.
Rick Yacoucci Nebulous Theorem II #988
Fastest 4 cylinder Bonneville 2 way average 352.525 mph
Nebulous Theorem III #788 Fastest Unblown Flathead 280 mph
http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
The bizarre, couldn't-believe-that-worked part is that one engine was used for power takeoff and had a standard type flywheel and clutch. The other engine, however, was turned around, had a flywheel mounted to the crank snout, and the two flywheels' ring gears were meshed together!
Apparently they had a lot of problems, but their improvised engine coupler wasn't one of them.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I'm thinking it will be easier to make the engines simultaneous-firing so that you don't have to deal with this.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Rick Yacoucci Nebulous Theorem II #988
Fastest 4 cylinder Bonneville 2 way average 352.525 mph
Nebulous Theorem III #788 Fastest Unblown Flathead 280 mph
http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
I'm assuming of course that the 'middle' 2 pairs of the V8 block casting are more similar to each other than they are to either the front or rear pairs.
In ASCII art terms:
If DOOQ is one bank of the V8, then the V12 is DOOOOQ
Regards, Ian
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
http://www.h1v8.com/ website. It contains lots of information and building process of the engine, with photos.
There are too many reason why want to join two engines into one. Past projects in the history I ever seen are all done on motorcycle engines. There a Wiliam's F1 engineer did such setup in UK many years ago (I forgot his name) who build a 2.0L V8 with 300hp .
Consider the weight of these engines. Imagine you can have a V8 engine that weight just about 100kg . This is even less than the weight of a typical inline-4 out of a 4-seater passenger car.
The Suzuki Hayabusa engine is a well known tough and light weight engine. There are many turbocharger kit flowing around and reported over 600hp output just for the inline-4. That means 1200hp on a V8. This engine is very attractive and is very good choice for light weight kit cars.
However, building such engine is very costly. To do it properly, you need a custom crankshaft. The H1 V8 didn't use custom camshafts because it kept the original firing order which is not a totally balanced V8. It is a pair of inline 4. H1 V8 took the way to sacrifice perfect balance, and choose a 72 degree V angle to minimize the engine packaging. To get the project properly done and achieving a fully balanced V8 engine, the engine should be 90 degree V, with each cylinder in 90 degree firing order. It will require a different crankshaft and custom camshaft. To save the cost of custom camshaft and achieving fully balance 8 cylinder engine is to go for boxer flat 8 setup. But this will have issues about oil/water flow in the engine which is not design how it meant to .
Welding is not a proper process of joining the two engine blocks. It will be too difficult to achieve the required tolerance and stiffness of the crank case. The crank case should be redesigned and CNC machined to achieve the proper tolerance. You will need to redesign the oil pumping system as well.
I think it does worth to redo the Hayabusa V8 engines to 90 degree, but who will have a deep pocket to support this crazy project? Unless I build my own kit car, then twin Hayabusa V8 is a must have item.
For joining other engines, what is the ultimate goal?
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
Regards, Ian
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
The application, the old diesel LMP1 regulations, have now gone. So it's purely a 'thought excercise' but I'm still curious none the less.
How would joining the inline 6 blocks be easier that the V8s?
Regards, Ian
RE: Fusing two engines (welding)
It will be nothing easy. the process is the same. For V12, it will be more expensive, your cam, crank will be longer and require more machining work . The larger than engine, the stronger the need for the crankcase and more difficulty in tolerance control.