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Heavy or Light Braking

Heavy or Light Braking

Heavy or Light Braking

(OP)
Will you get more brake and tire wear if you quickly apply the brakes or "drag" them coming to a stop say from a set speed of 50 mph??

Obviously - the slower method allows aero and engine braking to help out longer but all things considered - does it make any difference?  The theoretical work is the same - so would not the wear be the same??

Just a dumb old Structurual here that likes fooling around with old cars.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

From a theoretical standpoint, the longer you tajke to brake, the less work is being done by the rotors/pads (due to the engine and aero taking some of the brunt).

From a real-world standpoint?  Pretty much irrelevant, particularly since brakes are cheap to replace (compared to engine wear, clutch wear, etc.)

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Taking a long time to come to a stop will allow more of the heat to be dissipated by air circulation and conduction through to everything that the brakes are connected to, in addition to letting engine braking and aerodynamics take care of some of it.

I always get very long life out of brake pads and rotors on my cars.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Also, by using 'engine braking' more, you will also have an extended periods of over run fuel cut off, saving you fuel & therefore cash.

MS

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Highly dependent on the friction material.

Temperature and shear force within the friction material are of greater interest than work.  Temperature variation within the material (hot spots) are also important.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

The most expensive single component in running a car is the hourly rate for the operator. It generally out weighs all other variable cost added together.

I am sure it is very dependant on circumstances as to how it nets out at the end of a trip, but late hard braking does save time but costs fuel, tyres and brake components.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I've got to go with Pat on this one...
Yesterday I was talking to a UPS driver and commenting on the fact that every time he sat in his seat he buckled his seat belt.  In this instance he was simply backing his truck up to make it possible for me to leave...in his truck for no more than a minute...

Me---"Safety first, eh"?...his reply---"The company has harassed me for taking those extra seconds to buckle up when they thought it not necessary.  Time is money"!  Fancy that...comes as no surprise, though.

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I think that if you let your car brake by itself and in the end apply the brakes a little harder than usual is the most cost effective braking.
Because 1 the engine is in high revs so no fuel is going in the engine. So more engine braking
2 Aero does more job at high speed.
3 And shorter pressure on brakesputs less heat on them. even though applied harder.

PGP

PGP

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Interesting concept brought up by Pat, time = money I never thought of that. I guess it stands out to me because I drive an hour each way to work.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

So how much of that hour is possible to pull back with late braking?

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Absolutely none if you have to wait for the red light...though you'll have more time to text message.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Every so often late braking can lead to making it through an orange light instead of having to stop. That's the time saver in that situation.

If there is no traffic and you are on a winding country road, late braking and quick acceleration between curves definitely saves time BUT costs in almost every other variable cost.

A lot also depends on speed limits and compliance to them vs cornering speed. ie If there are frequent large changes in speed you can save a lot of time. If they are infrequent and small, the time becomes insignificant, but the cost also becomes insigifican by about the same factor.

  

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Unless you're fortunate enough to be able to afford your own country, habitual late braking affects much more than just your individual drive to work.

The measure of a good driver is not only the number of accidents one has, but also the number of accidents one causes.  The societal costs of all those accidents that the late braker leaves in his or her wake adds to the indirect cost of operating a vehicle.

In a completely just world, the costs of accidents that one triggers through selfish driving habits would be in some manner charged directly to that person.  As it is, all we can do is remind people that absolutely nothing is done in isolation.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I don't want to get political so I'll keep this short--braking late does not "cause" any more accidents that were not already predicated by inattentiveness of the follower. I think it's disingenuous to assign blame to those that initiate no direct action on yourself.

Pat: do you actually have orange lights in your area or are you making a funny? smile I only ask because the common usage is "stale yellow" in my recollection.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

In a completely just world, the costs of [b] wasted time [b/] that one [b] causes [b/] through selfish driving habits would be in some manner charged directly to that person.  As it is, all we can do is remind people that absolutely nothing is done in isolation.

There you go. Fixed.

Also, in a no traffic situation how does late braking cause others to have an accident. Even in a heavy traffic situation, it is the responsibility of the following driver to maintain a safe distance as you never know when a emergency stop that has nothing to do with late braking practices might be required by the car in front, like a kid on a skateboard shooting out onto the road or a large animal running onto the road.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

"I think it's disingenuous to assign blame to those that initiate no direct action on yourself."

So, if you see a bullet coming at you, you wouldn't duck?  Yes, they hit have hit you anyway, but why wouldn't try to avoid the incident if you can?

TTFN

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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Any driving style that increases a vehicle's acceleration will also increase tyre wear.

Heavy braking often goes with heavy acceleration, so that kinetic energy is wasted.  No relevance to wear, but bad for fuel economy.

But if the vehicle really needs to stop, why put the brake discs through more of a thermal/stress cycle than they need?

- Steve

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

With the turn that this thread seems to have taken, I'd prefer that the driver in the car following mine be reasonably familiar with intentionally braking hard rather than only doing so when tripped into full panic mode for whatever reason.


Norm

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Whats in use now for cars that apply their own brakes to follow a certain distance behind the car in front of them?

Wonder if they use a G force sensor to put a shaped f=ma breaking force on the passenger to keep their comfort level at optimum?

I know Lexus LS460's have this laser system, I'd expect all the high end cars do too.   

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Umm...  Point completely missed.

Of course the obligation to avoid rear-ending a hard braking vehicle belongs with the car following.

The point is that unless no other cars are allowed to use the road at the same time, driving is not a solitary pursuit; it is a cooperative endeavor.

Any driving style that fails to recognize the neccessity of the cooperative part of the endeavor is selfish.  Whether that is using up people's available reaction time in hard non-emergency braking, not being smart enough to figure out the turn signal lever, meandering along below the speed limit, or just in general acting as if no other vehicles exist all come down to selfishness.  

Traffic engineering has long recognized that vehicle flow resembles shock waves near critcal velocity; one person stabs the brakes, and each of the following vehicles has to stop progressively harder as the reaction time cushion is used up, until some poor sap, ten vehicles behind, and who was following at a reasonable distance is presented with a total speed change that is cumulatively impossible to handle.

Talking about the mechanical engineering aspects of hard braking in a race environment is one thing, but talking about the mechanical engineering aspects of non-emergency habitual hard braking on public roadways without simultaneously talking about the traffic and human factors engineering aspects seems irreponsible.

I'm sorry if that view offends anyone, but as Engineers, aren't we trained to look at the whole picture?

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

As a  practical application of such a "shock wave" effect...

Elsewhere in another thread, I posted that at one time I lost a LR wheel on my MG-TD and stopped to pick up all the brake shoes and parts to reassemble the LR wheel/drum.  Well, there is always a bit more to the story...This instance happened just over the crest of a road bridge over a RR track...four lanes.  While I was quickly putting it all back together I could hear (over the crest of the bridge) a series of screeching brakes and loud collisions.  Several.  I'm pretty sure they never knew what caused the stoppage.

Now, today, as a result of this and many other such cases, I always keep an eye on the mirror.  It's a religion born from many years as a race car driver, in part.  As a driver of the Socal freeway system, to boot.

In racing, I have a reputation of going into a corner deeper than my competition...Perhaps it's true, dunno.  I do know that I am NOT a proponent of very late, heavy braking, race track or street.  It creates handling problems on the track and excessive wear and tear on the street...In addition to the increased possibility of being rear ended!

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

That's precisely the point.  You are not driving in an empty universe.  If the idiot behind is in fact an idiot and not paying attention, then, yes, it's his fault for rearending you, but you're the one with the whiplash.  And when the judge hears that you waited until the last instant to brake, you're going to get most, if not all the blame, and no monetary recompense for your own injuries.  

The law, in California anyway, allows assignment to the car in front, if its deemed that the front car's actions or inactions directly caused the accident.

TTFN

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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

In Aus, the law is also very clear.

You must travel at a safe distance. If you rear end someone who was not travelling backwards, you where clearly not travelling at a safe distance.

I also use the mirrors a lot. In fact I found the most enduring unsettling aspect of driving a LHD (being used to RHD) car was not seemingly instinctively knowing exactly what was going on behind me as the subconscious mirror glances found no mirrors.

My point is that driving styles that save time also often increase other operating costs and the drivers and possibly other occupants time is a significant cost.

Of course consideration of others (if they are present) should be taken into account even if it has no impact on the costs, which is what this thread is about.   

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

If you out there by your lonesome, Pat, why bother to brake at all?  I just went up to a race with a long time friend.  A young man that has followed my racing career all his life. I spent the entire 420 miles on the edge of my seat.  Changing lanes, following too closely and, braking at the last possible instance...LEAVING ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM FOR ERROR!!!

It's just not the most sensible method to consistently get from point A to point B without the emotional impact.

I'm not a saint.  I learned the hard way and I'm just pointing out that after a 52 year racing career and somewhat longer driving career, I learned a couple things.  Not trying to be preachy...lord knows I have little room for that.  Just "fore warned is fore armed" kinda thing.

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I've been retired for over 12 years now Pat.  One of the very first things I did was to put my wristwatch away.  Haven't worn one since.  I really must tell myself from time to time that I have no place that I just MUST be.  Besides, I'm not all that great of a driver on the street.  Just got back from Costco and my wife spent most of the ride telling me "stop lights, stop lights".  Duh.

I love my racing.  I love the competition.  I love being twenty something even if it's only for a half hour.  I really dislike the long tow to the races...but...I think I dislike riding while someone else is driving even more.

Oh well.

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

" matter of degree and on the time and place and how much time might be saved and how much it costs.  "

Possibly, but I'd argue that most of these are invariably mitigated by planning and allocating sufficient time.  I won't deny that I'm sometimes guilty of procrastination and insufficient planning, but I've decided that these risks just aren't worth it.  In most cases, we're talking about a few minutes difference, and that allowing for sufficient time and contingencies makes for a more serene and less hectic trip.

It seems that too many people thrive on the adrenaline high of being late and having to rush.  But cutting corners is bad in business and bad in your personal life.

TTFN

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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

The OP was about costs, not social attitudes or road safety.

Time is money is part of that equation.

How much time is saved at what cost is the point. I am not saying how that nets out, in fact I think I said something like I don't know how it nets out and it will vary with circumstance, but it is an economic argument that should be considered in a purely financial analysis. What constitutes a good driver or a comfortable or safe trip is not part of the financial analysis.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Pub talk.  Should be moved to a suitable place.  Nothing here about engineering going on.
 

- Steve

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I am inclined to agree - but interesting nevertheless.
What happened to the exchange on motorcycle "stoppies" etc.?
Was that this thread? Where did the replies go? Did I hallucinate the whole thing?

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

"Traffic engineering has long recognized that vehicle flow resembles shock waves near critcal velocity; one person stabs the brakes, and each of the following vehicles has to stop progressively harder as the reaction time cushion is used up, until some poor sap, ten vehicles behind, and who was following at a reasonable distance is presented with a total speed change that is cumulatively impossible to handle."

The basis for this claim is false.  There is no such thing as a person, following at a safe distance, being presented with a speed change that is "cumulatively" impossible to handle, because the speed change is not cumulative.  If you are following somebody, they may need to come to a full stop at any point in time (the aforementioned kid in the street, or wild animal, or otherwise).  You need to leave space for your reaction time coupled with the maximum rate at which they could decelerate.  If you do this, no occurrence in front of you will cause an accident.

Furthermore, Pat (and others) was not recommending (I do not think) that people practice late braking in the form of full-on, traction limited, ABS-active braking for every light, stop sign, and curve.  Rather, he was (presumably) advocating simply braking somewhat later and somewhat harder than average, still leaving a significant margin for increased braking if/when necessary.  This is a far cry from your "example" of somebody pounding the brakes and causing a pileup.

There is really no reason for the high horse regarding driving style.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

kpt,

It depends on your definition of "safe driving distance".  Is it defined as enough distance to come to a complete stop should the person ahead of you slam on the brakes, or is it defined as enough distance to come to a complete stop if something were to suddenly appear in front of you?

Two situations:
1) You're at distance 'X' from car ahead of you.  They slam on the brakes and skid (or slow down) over some distance 'Y'.  You waste a bit of reaction time before hitting your own brakes, but you come to a stop without hitting them.  Distance 'X' is a safe distance.  Distance 'X' had enough buffer space in it to take care of your reaction time.

2) Same distance 'X' between you and the person ahead of you.  A concrete pipe rolls into the road.  The car ahead hits it and basically stops dead in its tracks.  You hit your brakes after the same reaction time, but this time you slam into the back of them.



In case #2, I would call that being "presented with a total speed change that is cumulatively impossible to handle."

Just a thought...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I certainly don't practice this normally, but the rules of safe responsible driving are that the driver should drive at a speed and distance that he can stop in time to avoid any object or hazard in front of him. A deer jumping out from behind bushes right in front of the bumper could be considered foreseeable in some cases. If you do not follow this practice then you are taking a risk. Everyone will do their own risk/benefit analysis. Speed limits and laws on safe driving spacing are in some ways an attempt to set a commonly accepted risk/benefit ratio. The ones who have a lot of accidents are those who don't believe that they are fully responsible for their own safety. The accidents they have are always someone else's fault.

The scariest situations I've experienced involve a sudden drop in visibility on freeways due to rain burst or brush fire. You should slow down immediately, but you know that if you do, someone will rear end you.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I once had a complete and sudden electrical system failure while drifting through a corner on a dark moonless night on a winding unlit, poorly marked country mountain road. That was a real heart starter.

Two urgent decisions.

1) Where the *&^% is the road ahead vs where is the rock face and where is the ravine.

2) Where can I SAFELY park this thing within coasting range as all engine power went with the lights.

Turned out the battery cable had gone open circuit between the wire and the battery terminal fitting.

It all turned out alright so maybe we sometimes have more safety factor than we think. Also sometime a bit of luck helps.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking


 This is also known to Morris Mini drivers as the "Mr. Lucas - Prince of Darkness"  effect.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

It happened to me, Pat, in 1961 on a moonless night coming down out of the mountains near Carlsbad, NM.  60 mph, 1947 Ford Coupe, curvy road...NO LIGHTS! Serious "pucker factor"...second only to the 50+mph, 1949 Mercury, downhill to the end of "freeway", light controlled intersection, TOTAL brake failure...There have been others, but none that got THAT level of my attention so quickly.

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Id like to add a couple points to this interesting convo..  Brake component wear, or any component wear for that matter comes down to how much heat is being generated.  
So, if you stab the brakes for a short enough time without generating the heat necessary to cause wear, then would that not be easier on the friction surfaces then lightly holding the pedal long enough to cause heat buildup?

Late braking is up to the driver, unless you're not being considerate. ie, coming up hard on someone at a light, or a pedestrian at a crosswalk.  This can be very stressful because they're not sure if you're going to stop or not.

As far as someone behind you; its completely the responsibility of that driver to maintain distance.  If they can't see what's going on and that you're intending to brake late, they're not paying attention, watching your bumper and not the road, or tailgating a higher performance vehicle beyond their vehicles capacity, as in motorcycle.  Either way, the onus is on the following vehicle..
Don't tailgate!

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

The amount of heat generated should remain relatively constant for a given speed change.  The rate at which it is developed is what varies.  The original "parameters" of this discussion included "50 mph", where things like "braking" due to aero drag and rotor cooling shouldn't be significant during the few seconds involved.

I doubt that bikes are inherently better-braking machines, given similarly grippy tires (and rider skill with respect to managing/avoiding stoppies).  More that the sort of person who rides a bike in the first place tends to drive in a shall we say more enthusiastic manner, and that it is more difficult when following one to tell just how rapidly it is shedding speed.  A bike simply doesn't get as "wide" visually as you approach it as anything else you're ever likely to be behind in traffic.


Norm

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I think Norm hit the nail on the head with the perspective issue on motorcycles. I ride and I never assume that I'm shedding speed faster than the car behind me but rather they are not attentive enough (in general) to judge the rate of my deceleration and thus they eat up their own buffer making that judgment before deciding to brake. Precisely the same reason I've run some number of lights never knowing if the person behind me is going to try to make it (I just assume "yes").

 

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I would agree that the amount of speed to be shed invariantly determines the total amount of heat created.  However, I would suggest, however, that the rate at which the heat is generated directly influences wear.

The kinetic energy is converted to heat at the interface between the moving and the stationary friction surfaces; that heat then soaks into the bulk of the lining and rotor materials.

Because all materials have a thermal time constant, the bulk of those materials can't instantly be at thermal equilibrium with the interface surfaces. From this, it seems that the higher the rate of heat input into the interface surfaces, the higher the temperature of the thin layer of lining or rotor material closest to the heat input, and consequently more ablation.

Yes; total heat input into the lining and rotor is based on change in kinetic energy, regardless of rate of change.  Average temperature of the materials some time after braking action has ceased is probably likewise independent of rate of speed change.

The instantaneous temperature of the infitesimal layer of friction materials making up the interface, and consequently wear, is likely strongly dependent upon rate of heat input.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Well, we have danced about the issue sufficiently...In my experience, an automobile or truck that is "lightly used", i.e., no high speed stops or 'aggressive' driving tend to have their brakes last many thousands of miles further than industry 'norms'.  I come by this from personal observation and from the observations of my racing sponsor, a tire and auto center.

Obviously, many other factors enter into the equation, not the least of which is "engine braking". Cars driven gently will usually outlast ones that are driven aggressively.
Exceptions to the 'rule'?  You bet, especially considering the desperate build quality of some aftermarket parts.

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

I have seen a difference of 400% between brake wear on cars with hard and soft drivers. There are many factors including number of brake applications and total speed reduction as well as engine braking, aero and drag proportion of braking effort and instantaneous contact surface temperature and pressure.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Heavy or Light Braking

On the flip side, in certain climates, people who always brake lightly will have to replace their brake rotors and pads once per year or so, because they never burn overnight rust all of the way off.  Rear brake rotors on small cars are the worst for this.

I make a point to get the brakes nice and hot about once a week.  I never have rotor rust issues.

 

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

How does that increase rotor life?

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Perhaps the little dislodged rust particles are more abrasive than the pad material that scrapes them off?


Norm

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Or the slightly pitted surface on the disc caused by the rust?
  Slightly off the subject - the early model VN Commodores have noticeably shorter brake pad life than comparable cars due to the lack of engine braking caused by the overdrive top gear in the automatic gearbox.  

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Of course being light on the brakes dissipates less energy per unit time. Thus, less wear should be induced.

But my VW pads certainly get hot now and then wink..... especially after the turbo was a whining.  

peace
Fe

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

BTW, the average material removal rate (assuming linear abrasive model) is dependent on 2 factors => The velocity, and pressure applied. Keeping pressure down significantly reduces MMR.  

peace
Fe

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Do you think heat plays any significant role? I am typically a light braker, but say on a large hill where engine braking is not enough I try to do small bursts of braking rather than sustain a lesser pressure the entire way so the heat can dissipate. I was told to do this when I was learning though the reason was more that the lower temp is less likely to distort the rotor.

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Quote (FeX32):

BTW, the average material removal rate (assuming linear abrasive model) is dependent on 2 factors => The velocity, and pressure applied. Keeping pressure down significantly reduces MMR.
Wouldn't keeping pressure down simply mean you have to apply a lighter pressure for a longer period of time? ;)

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

You are right Dan. That's what it's MMR in g/min for example.
It is usually not linear, from my understanding. As we heat the material the rate of removal of particles also increases.

So say the MMR in braking from 50mph to 0 in 5 seconds is 12mg/min, the MMR for braking from 50mph to 0 in 20 seconds may be 8g/min.
This is my understanding of this. pipe

peace
Fe

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

First off, brakes and brake parts are cheap compared to engine, transmission and driveline parts, so saving a little brakes by a lot of engine braking is false economy.  That doesn't mean I don't do it-I just know that it is false economy when I do, but it was the way I was taught.  The wife on the other hand, maintains her foot on the fuel feed until the moment she has to throw on the brakes.  Maddening.

Second, The difference in the 'braking per unit time' concept mentioned above is heat.  Heat is usually the enemy of most everything.  I think I remember that the wear rate of brake material goes up significantly as material temperatures increase.

If you are asking this question because you have drum brakes, the cooler you keep the drums, the longer you have brakes.  If they are Disc's, then the preceding doesn't hold true.

If you have an older vehicle and you haven't changed the brake fluid in your lines and calipers (or cylinders) heat can boil the moisture that your brake fluid absorbs and then you have no brakes whatsoever.  I've had that fun at least twice in my life at the most inopportune times, usually on some mountain pass with a vicious name like Wolf Creek Pass or one of his sisters.  Terrifying.

Funny how the thread changed from technical to philosophical a while back.

rmw

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Threads tend to do that on any tech subject that is rather 'open ended', leaving much room for interpretation.  In this case, I don't see all that much difference in the tech and the philosophical.

Funny, though...your first paragraph sounds like me in the late 50's talking to my 50 something year old dad!!!  I was into sports car racing where brakes were much better than production cars of the era.  Now, all I drive are antiques in which I always "gear down"...Full circle...bet he's smiling.

Rod

RE: Heavy or Light Braking

Rod,

You have become your Dad.

rmw

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