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What to do?
13

What to do?

What to do?

(OP)
As licensed engineers with a forensics firm we inspected a house to determine why it burned. The house was built with a large heating appliance. We found that the fire resulted from incorrect installation of the appliance (failure to follow installation instructions). The installers said they installed similar appliances in many other houses.

But since the insurance company and their law firm that hired us represent the installers, we were told by our mgt to keep shut! If not, we risk loss of clients and possible lawsuit, etc. So we can only hope that the other installations do not have the same bad installation and cause more house fires.

What would you do? Talk to the Building & Safety department? Talk to a lawyer? Forget about it?

RE: What to do?

The manufacturer of the heating appliance will want to know about this.  If the installer wants to sweep it under the carpet, you have no choice but to advise the manufacturer of the problem.  If no joy there, then take it to the Consumer Product Safety bureaucrats in your state.   

RE: What to do?

2
But as licensed engineers, isn't your first legal duty public safety?  Your company is asking you to break the law; you should ask them whether they are going to compensate you accordingly.  I would guess about 15 yrs salary deposited in the Grand Caymans would be in the ballpark.

TTFN

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RE: What to do?

2

Tell it like it is.  The complainant also has the option to hire an expert.  If their expert uncovers the same defect and comes to the same conclusion, you are going to look inept at best, corrupt and untrustworthy at worst..  In the business of forensics, we call those liars for hire.  Firms that engage in such antics quickly tarnish their reputation.   Your Client will not trust you in the future to give them the straight answer.  As an expert witness, the most important thing you have is your integrity.  Never ever compromise that.  If your management insists on sweep your findings under the rug, then they should not be in the business of forensics.  

A good attorney wants to know the truth.  If the installer did something wrong, then the attorney needs to know about it so that he/she can decide the best course of action.  In this case, a settlement would likely be in order.

In your case, I'd make these points with your management and see if they do the right thing.  if they don't, consider finding a job with a firm more in line with your own ethics.  Is your firm new at this stuff?

 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: What to do?

(OP)
hokie66:
Neither the appliance nor its manufacturer is to blame. It is the installer. So, I'm not sure the CPSC would be of much assistance.

IRstuff:
One thing I do need to get clear on, is if I would  indeed be "breaking the law" by keeping quiet. If so, then I have no choice but (and a valid LEGAL excuse) to spill the beans. But I want to be sure to do it the "right" way (if there is a right vs wrong way), so as to avoid getting tangled in a lawsuit that could cost a fortune, and last for years. Would I be breaking the law in your state?

casseopeia:
I share your sentiments – and agree with most of your reply. But...
1) Their "experts" missed it! Which put more pressure on us to keep our mouths shut.
2) This is a bit off-topic, but I sense that many clients pick and choose consultants at least partly based on how favorable their reports are to them - and repeat clients are essential! It's a troubling concept, but I suspect there is a bit of truth to it.
3) The attorney DOES know about it. And since the other side's experts failed to pick up on it, the attorneys decided that the "best course of action" was to high-five and keep quiet! And keep in mind that admitting to the bad installation could have opened another can of worms, since the bad installations may have been repeated in other homes.
4) Leaving this firm may be a wise move – but that does not resolve the bigger issue of - what should be done now to ensure there are no more fires.
.

RE: What to do?

I really don't see this as an ethics issue at all, as a reasonable human being you should do the right thing as a professional hired engineer even more so.

You could just follow the company line and hope and pray that your kids are never sleeping over in a house like this and when you read in the paper that a few people died as a result of a fire believed to be started by a heating application that you didn't know them personally and you were following company orders so that makes it okay, but I know I wouldn't sleep at night having done so.
 

RE: What to do?

I wonder how many years you can spend in the states guest house for criminal negligence if it is found you new of a potentially fatal flaw and decided to sweep it under the carpet.

I wonder if those pressuring you to do so would share the cell or even visit you while you are doing time for taking orders from them or if their defence might be YOU are the expert and they trusted you to inform them of any dangers.

Legal issues and career opportunities aside, how will you feel if your deliberate inaction results in a death or serious burns.

Regards
Pat
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RE: What to do?

3
Your management people are nuts!

I can assure you that the attorney representing the insurance company of the installer wants to know the truth.  If you do otherwise, he gets blindsided by the other side WHO WILL FIND THE SAME THING YOU DID!  Then you're firm's credibility is shot.  

As others have said "Tell it like it is".  You have an ethical and legal responsibility to do so.  You have an obligation to give your client good engineering representation...leave the legal representation to them...not your job.  Let the attorney decide how to handle your opinion.  He might not want a written report.  That's common if the facts don't support their opinion.  He might also be compelled to produce a report by court order.  If so, you'll have to produce a report.  If you do that and you lie in the report, then you have likely committed a crime for which you could be prosecuted under your engineering law.

In most states in the US, if you give your opinion on a matter of public health or safety, and it is overruled by a layperson without appropriate qualification to do so, you then have an obligation to report that to your state board.

Your management's attitude on this is deplorable.  I would find another job.

RE: What to do?

One other point...If you don't tell the attorney for whom you work the truth, you compromise his ability to represent his client, which could in turn, place you in liability claim position (malpractice).  That could place you in the line to pay the damages instead of the installer that did the shoddy work.

The attorney can best decide how to mitigate his client's exposure.  That's not your decision.

As a forensic firm, you need to practice with objectivity.  As an expert witness, you should not be an advocate for your client, just an impartial expert.  If your opinions don't match the premise of your client, you probably won't be invited to the party...that's OK.  You should be paid for your time and move on.  You can almost always help your client in the mitigation process though, by keeping the other side within reason in their demands.  They might be technically right, but their attorney will want the whole dessert, when they might only deserve a little piece of the pie.

RE: What to do?

And if it keeps you up at night, anonymously send a copy to the complainant's engineers.  Not necessarily ethical in some eyes, either, but it might save a life, and that overrides corporate greed, IMO...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: What to do?

4
1.  Get a lawyer.  One who is familiar with "whistle blower" laws in your state.

2.  Update your resume.

RE: What to do?

The actual legal ramifications are state-dependent, but surely, your moral and ethical obligations are clear.  What happens if another house burns down with a family sleeping iin it?  Could you possibly live with that on your conscience?

And, perhaps, you house doesn't have this particular appliance, but may have something else.  Would you want THAT PE to keep quiet about a potential danger to your family from some other appliance?

TTFN

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RE: What to do?

Ajack1
'I really don't see this as an ethics issue at all, as a reasonable human being you should do the right thing as a professional hired engineer even more so.'

This to my mind is exactly what ethics is.

On the OP, you will definitely be on the wrong end of the justice stick if it became public knowledge. The next fire may have fatalities, the opportunity here is to prevent further 'mishaps'.
 

RE: What to do?

Ron nails it as usual.  Your management is crazy.  

The insurance company that hired you absolutely needs to know this.  

Your insurance company's lawyers, provided they aren't idiots, should know that it'll be worse for everyone to sweep it under the rug.  

You don't work for the installer, you work for the installer's insurance, and the installer's insurance needs to take pains ASAP to do the "right thing" or else they'll get extra screwed the next time this burns someone else's house down.  

You shouldn't need to blow any whistles.  You should only need to explain this clearly and concisely to your management.  If that fails to work, you should only need to explain this clearly and concisely to your client.  If it turns out that both your management AND your client are crazy, call the lawyer and get some advice about how best to blow the whistle.

 

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: What to do?

Just to get some things straight.  Typically the party who is sued, in this case the installer, reports it to their insurance carrier.  The insurance carrier hires the law firm or attorney.  The attorney hires the consultant or expert witness.

You say in your second post that the attorney that hired you knows about the installation issue.  So if the cat is out of the bag, what and from whom is your management asking you to keep quiet at the risk of losing a Client?  If your attorney client knows, what's the problem?

In many cases, defense attorneys ask their experts not to produce a written report because that is discoverable evidence.  Attorneys here in CA often produce a report to the insurance carrier and to the court themselves.  It is up to the attorney to give accurate information to the insurance carrier who also needs to know the truth.  If this installer is doing the same thing over and over, he will eventually get caught by a better expert.  The insurance carrier needs to make a decision on whether to continue to offer coverage to the installer.

You might consider that the other side has discovered the problem, but is keeping it in their back pocket as a strategy.  Often a lawsuit will be filed with an engineer's 'Preliminary Report of Defects', subject to revision upon the discovery of additional items. Do not automatically assume you know everything the other side knows.  They may be planning to add the installation defect as a surprise so that the defendant has less time to prepare an excuse.  And until their expert is declared for trial, they can get another, or additional experts.

  

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: What to do?

In the original post, you state that the installer has installed similiar appliances in the past.  It does not state that the appliances were all installed in the same manner.  Perhaps the project with the fire was performed by a person having a bad day, making a mistake, improperly trained, etc.

Just because there was one mistake, does not mean that you must assume that all of them have been installed incorrectly.  

You were hired as an expert on this one case.  You have found an error on your clients behalf and have reported it to them.  Since the fire has already occured, I am guessing the risk of additional damage or injury is gone for this one project.

If you knew and were not just speculating that other projects had improper installations, you would be obligated to report it.  As a professional, you have met the standard of the law and of your contract.



   

RE: What to do?

OHIOMatt makes a good point.  You should not assume that other appliances installed by this same company had the same exact installation problem, even if one of the employees said "we do it this way all the time."

Another thing to consider is that there are a lot of installation instructions written by the manufacturer for reasons other that public safety.  A lot of it has to do with the economic practicality of covering themselves should something go wrong.  The manufacturer words do not always equal Gospel.  If it came to it, the installer could have his exact installation conditions simulated in an ASTM fire test and if a fire did not result, even with the 'improper' installation, it would not matter that he did not follow the manufacturer's recommendations.  The test results would override that.  Just something to consider before going off without all the facts.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: What to do?

(OP)
First of all, thanks to all of you for your input. Please allow me to comment on, and clarify, some of it:

ajack, patprimmer, IRstuff, and MALK:
I understand those aspects all too well. Now, I want to focus on how to proceed, step-by-step. And, Pat, I have no illusions about my employer coming to my rescue.

Ron:
The law firm representing the installer is our client and they Do know the truth - because we told them (as mentioned earlier). I assume and hope that this same law firm revealed everything to their client – which is the insurance company for the installers. I've been cautioned that this law firm (our client) may sue us if we do anything that causes the homeowner, his insurance carrier, his insurance carrier's law firm, or their experts, to learn what we know about the cause of the fire. As for lying, I have not been asked to do that - nor would I. Once we revealed the cause of the fire to our client, they asked us to not write a report. We are out of the loop now, but I suspect that our client (the law firm), and their client (the installer's insurance carrier) are feeling lucky that: (1) the homeowner's fire insurance carrier will likely pay for replacing the house; and (2) that they are willing to keep the cause of the fire a secret, in hope that it does not get revealed due to another home burning from a similar installation by the same installer.

MacGyverS2000:
I'd be found out for sure, once word got back to our firm, and I'd have to flee to Mexico.

MintJulep:
I've already started on your Step #2. It's Step #1 that I dread most.

casseopeia & OHIOMatt:
Management's concerns started when I pointed out that licensed engineers have a basic duty, to take actions upon learning of life-endangering situations, and that keeping quiet and hoping that all will be okay is not the kind of action that the state is looking for. They worried that I might notify a building official that other houses MAY have the same flawed installation, and that doing so could cause at least three unpleasant things to happen: (1) the majority of the expenses related to the burned house could shift to our client's client - i.e., become the burden of the installer's insurer; and (2) other homes where these appliances have been installed by the same installer May require expensive corrective work; and (3) we could be sued by our client (the law firm), and maybe others such as their client (the installer's insurance company), or the installers themselves. Also, these installations were Not the result of a "bad day", or similar. The installation instructions are very emphatic on this particular issue – they were indeed the "Gospel".
.

RE: What to do?

coolout...your position is better than I first thought.  You've met your obligation as an engineer.  As for disclosure of your findings, at this point that would only have to occur if you are discovered by the other side and subpoenaed to testify at deposition or trial.  You might  then be treated as a "hostile" witness.  You might not get paid for that, and the other side could do nothing about it as far as sueing you.  Since the issue is one of installer non-compliance, you have no obligation to inform the public as it is not a product liability issue putting the public at large at risk.

One thing you might want to make sure gets put into your contract terms is that you agree to maintain confidentiality unless compelled to testify by a court of competent jurisdiction.

RE: What to do?

Quote (coolout):

Once we revealed the cause of the fire to our client, they asked us to not write a report.
Does this sound like "Our client is responsible for damages, so we don't want any written proof that can come back and bite us later." to anyone else?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: What to do?

To MacGyverS2000

No, this sounds like prudent use of resources.  Why pay for a full blown written report that you know that you will not use.  This is common in this type of situation.  Professionals are asked to review a situation and report the findings to their client.  If the findings will help the situation, they are then engaged for a full report, if not, then no report is written.

Once the case plays out, the other side may produce their own expert witness with the same findings as the OP's.  If this happens and there is no rebuttal by the defense, then it is pretty much an admission of liability.

To coolout

Every project that I have done inspections on over the years have had issues with installation.  Not all of them were life safety type situations, but some of them certainly have been.  When I find life safety issues on a project, I point them out to the contractor and owner to make sure that the project is brought into compliance.  I have never reported a contractor to a building department because he may have done something similiar on other projects.  

I really agree with management on this one.  Reporting somebody based upon speculation could put you and the company that you work for at risk of litigation.  As you state, engineers have a responsibility when "learning of  life-endangering situations".  As I see it, you have no specific knowledge on any project other than the one in which you are involved.  In that case you have fullfilled your contractural and ethical obligation.


 

RE: What to do?

OHIO

That sounds like the sort of smart business cop out I hear from time to time.

It may or may not be smart business and career wise, but this is the ethics forum, not the how do I get ahead forum.

Ethics is about what's right and wrong.

Ethically if you have good reason to believe lives might be at risk you should act to save them. If you have some reason to suspect, you should investigate further.

Legally, it depends on the jurisdiction.

Legally, no one here is a lawyer. You should get legal advice as you may have conflicting legal requirements to both honour a contract and to move in the interests of public safety.

In any jurisdiction I am aware of, as far as I know as a layman, a contract compelling you to break a law cannot be binding as it is illegal to entice or pressure someone into breaking the law.

You may well be between a rock and a hard place legally.

Is there anything to stop you writing a letter to the installer, copying the installers insurance company and the lawyer who employed you, and asking in that letter if the installer has done other installations with the same deficiencies, and if so that you advise they be corrected in the interest of safety and also to remove or reduce the potential for more law suits in future.

Depending on the facts, you might also advise that if corrections to dangerous installs are not done, that you are legally obliged to report the matter to the regulator.

Before I sent such a letter, I would certainly run it past my lawyer first.
 

Regards
Pat
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RE: What to do?

patprimmer

What if the lawyer says not to send the letter?

RE: What to do?

Pat's suggestion sounds good to me. Coolout has knowledge of a possible safety problem, not a definite one. He should inform the installer that they may have a problem. If he becomes aware that the possible safety problem more that likely a problem, then he should go further assuming the installer is not taking the required steps. As others have stated, I am not a lawyer, get legal advise before you take steps that may put you or your company at risk of a lawsuit.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: What to do?

In think it is very obvious that if you pay a lawyer for advice then you do not take it you are pretty stupid.

If your conscience is at odds with the advice, you should then ask what you can do and what consequences might result from various options. You then need to decide just how ethical or just how ruthless you are.

If the law demands you knowingly leave people at risk, maybe it's time to get new laws in your region or move to one with more humane laws.

Regards
Pat
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RE: What to do?

"The installers said they installed similar appliances in many other houses."
Make sure that the report says that or it is documented in some way.
Next call and/or go see the board. Take what you have with a cover letter and give it to them with an explanation.
I would also give a copy to the attorney general.
If you have a copy of any internal memo whereas they told you and anyone else to keep it quite include that.
After you get back give a copy of the memo to your boss.
If you send an ananomus copy to any one you can possably get fired and sued.
If you are above board and follow the lay it will be hard for them to fire you.  YOu can quit at our own leisure.
If your in doubt see your own attorney.
There may be somebody on the board who's mother lives in a house with one of those things.
 

RE: What to do?


Do not write a letter to the installer.  It is not protected by attorney-Client privilege.  If you feel the need to put your concerns into writing, send a letter to your Client, the attorney, without direct reference to the case.  If you really want to keep the correspondence confidential, call the attorney and put a handwritten note in your personal file, again without reference to the specific case.  Tell him that you have reason to believe that you have recently become aware of an installation problem with a certain appliance and that you know he represents the installers liability carrier and that there are x number of homes in imminent danger of going up in flames. Recommend that all be inspected and corrected and this condition corrected if found.

If that does not satisfy you, then find a law firm in your area that specializes in class action construction defect cases as a representative for Plaintiff.  Tell them what you know, again without revealing the case, and see if they are interested in pursuing it as a class action.  Then get your resume together and take it to the experts that this law firm uses because when the management at your current firm catches wind, you'll be out faster than you can say, "but your Honor."   Don't expect to do any more work for the same attorney-Client either.

But........I'm not entirely convinced that there is substantial risk of lives being lost here.  I'm guessing that the installer said that they had installed hundreds of these appliances over the last few years and have never had a problem.  I'll bet they did not say, yeah, we've installed a whole bunch of these appliances over the last few years and every single house we put them in burned down.

So what is different with this one?  Have there been other fires where this installer has put in one if these appliances?  If you simulate the installation in a test setting, will it consistently produce the same result, a fire?

Something is not feeling right.  How did the installer come to get involved in the lawsuit?  I can only guess, and I'm not suggestion that you post additional details for a case currently in litigation.

So here's my scenario based on my past experience.  This whole thing started with a fire.  Someone's house burned down.  They called their insurance carrier who sent out an investigator.  Maybe after the investigator saw the remnants, he recommended a reduction in payment to the homeowner for some reason like a condition not covered by the policy, homeowner negligence, whatever.  The insurance investigator misses the cause of the fire, the improper installation of a large heating appliance.

The homeowner then goes to an attorney to sue the insurance company and/or general contractor.  The attorney has an expert write a report alleging construction defects which may have caused or contributed to the fire, but misses the entire cause, this appliance installation detail that you alone happened to catch.

Now the attorney had a cause of action and can file a suit, however his Statement of Defects contains no mention of the actual and sole cause of the fire, this installation defect you found.  The GC countersues his subcontractors, one of which is the installer of the offending appliance, however the engineer's report attached to the suit makes no mention of the installation defect.  

You find the installation defect and conclude that it was the sole cause of the fire and nothing else contained in the Statement of Claims filed and accepted by the court has any bearing what-so-ever in the resultant fire.

Well congratulations.  You are smarter than the Homeowner, Plaintiff's attorney, Plaintiff's expert, General Contractor's expert, building inspector, Appliance Subcontractor, and every other expert who may have been to the home to inspect conditions for their particular field.

Why not just call yourself a press conference on your local TV station?

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: What to do?

Pat...I understand where you are coming from, but in the litigation realm in the US, your suggestion can cause lots of problems...

Quote:

Is there anything to stop you writing a letter to the installer, copying the installers insurance company and the lawyer who employed you, and asking in that letter if the installer has done other installations with the same deficiencies, and if so that you advise they be corrected in the interest of safety and also to remove or reduce the potential for more law suits in future.

If the lawyer has not disclosed the OP as an expert witness, then his correspondence with the OP is privileged and protected under law.  It appears that this is the case here, since the lawyer has requested that no report be prepared by the OP. If the OP sends ANY correspondence to the installer directly, that protection of privilege is broken and then the OP and all of his findings are discoverable.  That would compromise the lawyers defense of his client and open the OP to a malpractice claim by the lawyer.

If the OP feels that he needs to warn that other installation may be at risk, he needs only to send a letter to his client (the lawyer), stating that he has a professional obligation to warn of the potential danger and that the installer and the insuror must be informed of such.  Further that you recommend that each past installation be investigated for similar breaches of installation so as to assess the risk of the current occupants.  Let him know that you consider this to be a dangerous condition and that he must notify those involved, including those with potentially defective installations.

The OP can't do the notifications for several reasons...first, it is doubtful that he has any direct relationship with the installer, so getting the information on past installations would be fruitless.  Second, the attorney must control the flow of information, so put him in the difficult position of notification...don't hold that on yourself when you can't conceivably control or even gain adequate information to do so.  Last, making a public comment on something about which you have no direct information (that being the other installations) is in and of itself a breach of ethics and in some states, a violation of the state's engineering law (it is in my state).

In short, keep the correspondence directly with the lawyer (the OP's client) and give whatever warnings you need, but you can't take on the obligation to "save the world" without adequate information that you'll probably never get.

The OP has no information that prior installations suffer the same or similar breaches or that they are even subject to the same conditions.  He has no obligation to check them, only to recommend to his client that they be checked.
 

RE: What to do?

Maybe I'm skimming the long replies too quickly, but a number of replies seem to boil down to "You found a problem the other side may not find... don't bring it up unless they do.  You've satisfied the letter of the law and the letter of your ethical requirements, no need to go deeper, so you're good."

Such a skim-the-surface and letter-of-the-law thought process feels wrong to me, as if you're forgetting the real intent and heart of the process.

I'll bow out now...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: What to do?

Dan...read a little deeper.  I said early on that the other side WILL find what he found.  I believe others pointed that out as well.

He can't legally or ethically go any deeper than to give notice to his client.

Ron

RE: What to do?

Ron,

Is it only wrong to ignore it if they don't find the same thing?  I would think he has an ethical binding to the public, not his client... I'm not saying it's legally correct, just saying what's the point in ethics if there are bounds put on it by who pays the bills.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: What to do?

Dan,
The problem is the definition of "the public".  Let's suppose the installer did 5 other installations of the product.  Let's assume that the other 5 did not have the same issue as the one investigated.  If our OP then notifies these individuals (assuming he could get the information), he could risk defaming the installer.  If he notifies his client (the lawyer), who then notifies the installer, who then notifies the owners that they want to check....no defamation, but proper notification.  If the other 5 did have the same problem but he went around the installer and warned the owners, he could still be at risk of damaging the installer's business (didn't give the installer an opportunity to mitigate his own damage).

The installer's reach of activities does not constitute the public at large, so the OP cannot warn "the public".  If the product were defective and many of those had been shipped and installed, the OP would then have an obligation, after informing his client, to warn the public (through a reasonable means of notification of a governing body such as the US Products Safety Commission).

Unfortunately, any public warnings in a case such as this would have to be the responsibility of the lawyer in concert with the manufacturer and the installer, after the lawyer receives notification from the OP.

I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be, but have seen similar instances and how they ultimately had to be handled by the lawyers and the courts.  We were involved in something very similar (outdoor grill explosion resulting from improper installation), but did not have any info regarding other installations by the installer.  Our only recourse was to tell the attorney we worked for.

I don't disagree with you that it would be better to directly warn, there's just not much provision for that within the law, except as noted by someone else about Whistle Blowers.

Ron

RE: What to do?

Just one little detail.

We are talking about law of the land and we don't know what land as far as I see.

Being undisclosed by the OP probably means he is from the USA if precedent is taken into account.

Regards
Pat
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RE: What to do?

Ethics <> morality

As distasteful as it sounds, the client bought the analysis.  They own it, not you.

RE: What to do?

Pat...use your resources.  OP is from the US.

Ron

RE: What to do?

Hey Pat!  Don't be a hata!  Boys from Oz do that too!lol

...and you're right...he didn't post his location.  We don't know his jurisdiction, but the general US inference gives enough context to be relevant.  Laws and practices (codes of civil procedure) vary from state to state, but don't vary greatly from the federal (national) codes (as always, there are exceptions).

RE: What to do?

TheTick

eth·ic (thk)
n.
1.
a. A set of principles of right conduct.
b. A theory or a system of moral values

admittedly from an on-line dictionary

RE: What to do?

ethic

Doing the right thing when no one is watching, or no one will know.

definition came from the gut

RE: What to do?

Quote:

I don't see where the OP posted for al to see what jurisdiction he was in.

Actually, he sort of did, "have to flee to Mexico" pretty much puts him in North America, and pretty much only Americans think about fleeing to Mexico, unless they're draft dodgers, in which case Canada would be the choice.

TTFN

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RE: What to do?

Well, MALK, there's the problem.  The conduct required by the codified ethics demand action contrary to most of our morality.

In a professional sense (this is a forum for professinal issues, no?), ethics is about acceptable conduct.  It has little to do with morality.

Add to this mix the fact that the OP's employer was hired by an attorney.  This puts the report squarely in the realm of attorney-client privilege, a time-honored and well-protected ethic that offends many people's morality (until you are the one being charged, of course).

RE: What to do?

I agree this is a professional ethics forum, but professional ethics do not over rule legal requirements.

If there are conflicting legal and or professional ethics requirements, like to honour a contract or to treat information as privileged as well as to act in the interest of public safety you need legal advice.

On a lighter note, If someone uses the phrase, to send someone to Coventry, should I presume they reside and work in England.

Ron. Aussie might do that also, but in my 8 years and many thousands of posts here I have never seen one do it. In fact ALL but one turned out to be from the USA once disclosed. One was British. I don't know how many I have seen in total, probably many tens, maybe over one hundred. If observing that imbalance is hating or Yank bashing, I guess I need to be more PC and less observant and ignore evidence.

The facts are, this is the WWW and more than half the people here are not residing and working in the USA while significantly more than half (like over 90%) of those asking questions where a useful answer requires one to know where they are but do not disclose that are in fact located in the USA.

The flee to Mexico comment in this thread was to subtle for me.

The real issue is that even if we presume the OP is from the USA, we still don't know what part. I am sure people raised in the USA but living elsewhere still use expressions they grew up with even if they are no longer strictly accurate.

Back to strictly on topic. I stick with the advice to get legal advice relevant to your jurisdiction where ever that is. Any legal advice given here is almost certainly from someone not fully qualified to give it and will be relevant to their jurisdiction which may vary from yours.

Regards
Pat
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RE: What to do?

Pat...I've seen the Oz boys do it several times....even lately.  I'd have to go back through the posts to pick them out, which I don't have the time to do, but when I noticed them I thought...well, the Yanks aren't the only ones who do it.  Yes, we do it more often because there are more of us in the forums...just logic and statistics.  About 31 percent of the participants are from the US, while about 2.5 percent are from Oz.  I would expect more of the issue to be from the US (and it is) than from Australia.

My comments were meant mostly in jest; however, we all know and have discussed this before in the Pub, that the Americans in the forums occasionally are more seemingly arrogant in their postings and expectations than others.  Not really a problem unless it offends you, but a fact nonetheless.  I'm guilty of it myself, but try very hard to be cognizant of the universality of our forums. I have also red flagged comments and postings that I considered to be "over the line" in those respects.  Your statistics are anectdotal....your observations...not necessarily that of others, as are mine.

The bottom line is that we are an international group, crossing cultural, education, moral, ethical, and social lines that would be greatly simplified if we were "one society".  We're not.

I greatly value the opinions of my international colleagues (you, hokie66, rowing engineer, and Greg Locock are some of the most intelligent professionals I've had the pleasure to interact with...keeping in mind that hokie66 is an expatlol.  The varied responses are often enlightening, though sometimes irrelevant...just as mine are to those in other areas of practice.  As a reasonably intelligent group of people, I think that most of us can discern the relevance and ignore the geographical, code-specific, or cultural differences. Sometimes not, but most of the time we can.

The next bottom line is that when you decide to come to God's country (sorry Greg); then I will buy you a beer and a steak...even if from one of the fake Aussie steakhouses.

With personal respect and regards,
Ron

RE: What to do?

Ron

I have yet to see one from Aus, but if they run at over 2.5% they would indeed be over represented.

I don't necessarily see it as arrogance, more an unawareness or ignorance of the rest of the world by probably a small but minority rather than a majority of Yanks. I think it is prevalent in those who never travelled much or who are not exposed to working globally.

hokie and Big Inch are in a better position than most to see this as they are both people who have lived in several cultures long enough to get a real feeing for the tendencies.

I know it irritates me more than it should.

We have the Outback Steakhouse franchise here. I eat there when I want to eat kinda American. They make great Margaritas. They certainly are not Australian cuisine.

Regards
Pat
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RE: What to do?

Seems like we're getting a bit obsessive here.  

I rarely come across an OP that starts off with, "I'm from country X, and I want someone to tell me blah, blah..."  Invariably, it's, "I want someone to tell me blah, blah..."  and only later that we find out that they're from any country at all.  About the only hint that I usually see is an OP stating that their English is bad, but there are plenty of Americans with that problem as well.

TTFN

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