Justifying 3D CAD
Justifying 3D CAD
(OP)
Hi All
I've got a bit of a problem at work, wondering I could get some advice.
The company I work for have recently started using Solidworks, but they have been using Autocad for years. The production manager is getting annoyed that it takes longer to do manufacturing drawings in Solidworks than in Autocad. So the manager spoke to the MD to say that Solidworks is no good for our type of work (heavy engineering) and they should stick to Autocad. So next week I have been summoned to a meeting where I have to justify the continued use of Solidworks.
I've tried to explain to the manager the huge benefits of Solidworks, but he see's it as a waste of time. He's just want's his manufacturing drawings immediately.
The company doesn't do any R&D, or present models to clients.
I'm not sure what to do. If I don't come up with a good explanation, then I'm out of a job.
I've got a bit of a problem at work, wondering I could get some advice.
The company I work for have recently started using Solidworks, but they have been using Autocad for years. The production manager is getting annoyed that it takes longer to do manufacturing drawings in Solidworks than in Autocad. So the manager spoke to the MD to say that Solidworks is no good for our type of work (heavy engineering) and they should stick to Autocad. So next week I have been summoned to a meeting where I have to justify the continued use of Solidworks.
I've tried to explain to the manager the huge benefits of Solidworks, but he see's it as a waste of time. He's just want's his manufacturing drawings immediately.
The company doesn't do any R&D, or present models to clients.
I'm not sure what to do. If I don't come up with a good explanation, then I'm out of a job.





RE: Justifying 3D CAD
> How often did they have problems with parts clearance?
> Why is it taking longer? Most CAD programs will run in 2D if needed.
TTFN
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RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Ask them if the jobs would be a lower price if they had 3D models to work from.
Would your customers be happier if they had 3D models?
The world has gone 3D, that should be enough justification, IMO.
Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
...This is from the solidworks website and might give you a few points to think about.
Depending on your type of work the use of 3D software can be used as a virtual prototyping tool which can cut costs in the shop. This should be something that the business guys love. You can use the example of finding a design error in an assembly before it makes it to production where it would have cost tooling/rework/time/materials.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
The benefits of 3d cad are:
ease of visulaisiation
assemblies
interference checks
basis for CAE, FEA in particular.
compatibility with customer or subcontractor
and probably many others
If those are not important to you then Houston, we have a problem.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Justifying 3D CAD
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Driving a train.
Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
What exactly is the "heavy engineering" type of work? Bridges, buildings, mining, ships, ???
How much of the products parts and assys can be re-used in other products/projects?
Have you created a library of them?
The auto-creation of a BOM is often enough to convince management of the benefits of using solid modeling.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Some good stuff above.
How much of this is a learning curve issue and that your users aren't up to speed yet, and maybe aren't sure what to do with the 3D CAD yet, let alone how to use it.
Did you have a transition plan, to move from one software to the other?
If so, had this identified the need for training, technical support, possibly an on-site expert user...
If all you're trying to do is create drawings of parts, then 3D may not save you as much as its proponents claim. However, once you start taking advantage of its other capabilities, then hopefully you'd see the advantages.
One issue with CAD, perhaps 3D more so than 3D, is that because it's 'easier' to change things, you tend to change them more, which can eat up a lot of the potential savings.
Folks on http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=559 may be able to give more targetted help, just watch out for fan boys.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Not sure about the details on SW, which reminds me, really do need to learn SW as I'm the designated lead on transitioning to it.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
I've been asked to do complex 3-D models and make them just so in cases where a less literal schematic drawing that you would do in ACAD or on a drafting board would make a perfectly clear definition of the assembly and work instruction. I understand that there are other reasons to go 3-D in this case, but definate burdens as well.
I would identify a case with the production manager and win him/her over- particular cases, particular beefs. Once you have your model, the geometric and dimensioning part of the drawing pretty much falls into your lap, so what is it about he production drawings that takes longer? In some cases, you can justify the time it takes to make a good parametric model with the reduced time it takes to make various configurations from it, which in turn can just dump to a standard drawing- your cycle time suddenly got a lot smaller.
Contact your local SW reseller, say you need a couple hours with an application engineer to resolve the problems that are hanging things up. On the prospect of selling new seats of SW, they may help you out or provide an 'evangelist' to pitch it with you.
Bottom line, if it's not working better, it's only POTENTIALLY better.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
How long have your users been using SW, vs. using AutoCAD? Somebody who's been using SW for 4 months after AutoCAD for 10 years will be much faster in AutoCAD still - especially if you've designed a lot of custom tools/shortcuts in AutoCAD and haven't built the equivalent into SolidWorks yet. I know at a previous company we had some individuals that we just couldn't retrain through this transition and they pretty much derailed the whole proposition. It was something of a 'can't teach an old dog new tricks' situation. Even if people can/want to learn the new system, it takes time to attain equivalent efficiency.
Businesses don't tend to jump into significant expenditures such as multiple seats of expensive software without performing some kind of cost/benefit analysis. Is that analysis for your SW implementation around? Do the assumptions in it make sense?
In my experience it takes 6-12 months on average to surpass 2D efficiency after the move to 3D (assuming no prior knowledge/use of any 3D program). The fastest I've seen is 3 months, and I've also known people who will just never get it.
Some justifications off the top of my head (may not all apply to you):
- Assembly BOM generation
- model once, extract as many views as you want
- changes propagate to all views
- some complex geometry I find very hard to generate in 2D (curvy surfaces generally)
- integrated analysis tools
- improved visualisation (esp useful for displaying concepts to less-technical members of the organisation)
- rapid generation of families of related parts via design tables or similar.
- automatic production of flat patterns for sheet metal
Having said that, there are some areas AutoCAD still has perceived advantages over SolidWorks. Electrical schematic work comes to mind.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Thanks for that SteveMartin, I needed a chuckle. I nearly had tea to wipe of my monitor.
There was a thread over in "General engineering computer programs discussion" about choosing CAD packages which may have useful info.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
I've been using high-end CAD for 33+ years and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that companies do NOT 'manufacture' drawings, but rather they manufacture PRODUCTS! There is concept design, layout design, analysis and validation, detail design, assembly design, manufacturing planning, tooling and fixture design, workcell design, testing and inspection, packaging, servicing, etc. Along the way you have to solve problems involving design for manufactuability, design for assemblility, design for serviceability, and more recently, design for recyling and/or resusability. All of this takes much more than orthographic projections plotted onto a piece of paper.
Look around you. Everything which you can touch, hold, drive, whatever, had to go though all of the above processes, and in most cases many more, before they became real objects.
And trust me, 2D drafting systems are not going to cut it. Look at the software used by today's Automotive and Aerospace OEM's. Or the companies which produce machinery for everything from printing newspapers, to weaving fabrics, to processing foods and chemicals (this is the industry where I spent all of my traditional engineering career). Or the people who conceive of and produce the myriad of personal electronic products, white-goods, toys, etc.
Without a fully defined 3D model which can represent the core definition of your product which is then used along the entire process, going from 'art to part', will you truly have an efficient and high quailty workflow which will produce what you need to satisfy your customers. Otherwise you have to stop to interpret, over and over again, pieces of paper with 3 orthographic views, struggling to convert what is only a series visual projections into needed data that is both time consuming and extremely error-prone. The days of everything being done with ink on velum, even if there was a 'CAD' system involved, are over.
Follow the links in my signature for more about what is now referred to as PLM or 'Product Lifecycle Management'.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
I agree.
Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
IRstuff,
I think the MD saw a few other competitors demonstating their models at a trade exhibition, so he must have the same.
It's taking longer than Autocad because their are six Autocad drafters and one SW modeler (ME!). Most of the drafters have been doing this same job for 20+ years, so they can just do a drawing at lightening speeds. I've explained that once the rest of them have gotten experience with SW, things will move on very quickly. I've also told them that you can do 2D in SW, but their answer is "we can already do it in Autocad!".
ctopher,
"The World as gone 3D". That's what I said to them.
Kenat,
I've been using 3D for 16 years professionally, started on Unigraphics, then PRoE, Catia, then for the last 3 years Solidworks. The rest of them have only used Autocad, before that they where using drawing boards.
The training is not very well organized, mainly due to having no time. The company has a really short unrealistic turn around time on projects, which puts a massive strain on everyone. All the drawings must be done by yesterday.
The parts that we make are not that complex, probably takes the same time in SW and Autocad. Most of the complex machinery is outsourced, and they also only do 2D :(
Stevemartin,
I agree with you. I think is going to take quite a bit of time (or a few retirements) to get the design time up to speed. The majority of the team are over 50 (i'm the youngest by far), having used autocad from the earliest days, with no exposure to 3D.
I showed them an assembly with moving parts, which all where amazed at, which I think now was a mistake, they now feel a bit out of their depth.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
This is the second time I've found myself in a similar situation, and last time it didn't work out well.
Ah well, keeps things interesting.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
You have described it absolutely perfectly.
John,
I agree 100% with what you have wrote. That exactly how I see things.
Unfortunately my employers/co-workers wouldn't.
(P.S. Long Live NX)
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
It didn't help that the entire senior engineering staff quit en masse. I got there some time after that, and got my SW training from a junior guy who was very fast, and would gladly demonstrate, once. Then he got the axe, and I learned from the SW tutorials.
... or tried to.
The SW tutorials are _seriously_ out of phase with the current product, and growing more so as the product evolves but the tutorials don't.
The 'help' function is also out of phase with the product and insufficiently cross-indexed.
SW _really_ needs to automate the process of producing tutorials, or otherwise get them up to speed with the product.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
I would suggest a good plan for transition. They have already bought the software, so why not use it on some part of the new project. Say use SWX for only 25% of project. Use only 2 of your best drafties. Set some realistic deadlines.
Show them the diffrence is because the Acad has all the data, templates, libraries in place. I bet you are spending alot of time on libraries & other one-time stuff.
And once you will have one project in SWX, you will be able to save time by re-using the data.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
The AutoCAD people are a different breed. The ones that are die-hard fans of it, are not responsive to change. Most feel AutoCAD is 'it', no other can beat it.
After 20 years or so of using it, of course they 'could' be very good at it. I have worked with some that used it every day for 20 years and you would think they were beginners.
But, management assumes they are the best at CAD and and do their budgets and project dates based on the CAD user's 'knowing what they are doing' approach.
Educating employees and management about technology only makes companies grow, stuck in a rut will only eventually hurt them.
Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
There were a bunch of self-taught veterans there. ... all working on layer 0, because they didn't know there _was_ another layer.
I was ahead of them in two weeks.
Solidworks did not come so easy.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
All due respect to John but I've found the various CAD companies and their (or their VARs) sales folk tend to exaggerate their capabilities while down playing the 'pain' of implementing them.
This seems especially true for small to medium enterprises that find it harder to justify big training budgets, or the time to set things up... Management seem to expect, even if just implicitly, that with little or no impact on schedule/throughput etc. you can get the new software up & running and see the promised benefits almost straight away.
I'm not knocking 3D CAD - it's all I've ever used in anger - but that doesn't mean I'm blind to some of the associated concerns.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
"It's taking longer than AutoCAD because their are six AutoCAD drafters and one SW modeller (ME!). Most of the drafters have been doing this same job for 20+ years, so they can just do a drawing at lightening speeds. I've explained that once the rest of them have gotten experience with SW, things will move on very quickly. I've also told them that you can do 2D in SW, but their answer is "we can already do it in AutoCAD!".
Are you really suggesting that they learn to use 2D only in SW? When the 2D in AutoCAD is probably equal to or better than SW and they already know AutoCAD inside out.
"The parts that we make are not that complex, probably takes the same time in SW and AutoCAD. Most of the complex machinery is outsourced, and they also only do 2D :("
So are you saying that after you overcome the learning curve you will be able to produce parts as quickly as you can now, with no added benefit, there can be huge benefits in working in 3D, but you have not named one? That hardly seems good justification to buy 7 seats of SW, the training and probably hardware updates, probably around £56K plus the time to overcome the learning curve.
"I agree with you. I think is going to take quite a bit of time (or a few retirements) to get the design time up to speed. The majority of the team are over 50 (I'm the youngest by far), having used AutoCAD from the earliest days, with no exposure to 3D."
So by your own admission this is going to take a long time and mean losing staff that have worked for the company for years and probably know the products and procedures inside out.
I am not sure there is anything in there to make me think that whoever decided to go down this route made a big mistake and you are clutching at straws to try and justify it.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
The car salesman knows when he is lying.
I took a course in AutoCAD administration a few years back and the instructor was taken back when I said I had never used AutoCAD. I had 18 years of UG/NX and 5 of Pro/E, but no AutoCAD.
Check with your SolidWorks VAR (or ptc.com) for information on justifying 3D CAD. I know both have white papers that do that. Siemens may, too.
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
If the machines are all 2D (or there aren't automated machines) then the benefits are more on the design side.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Thanks for all the replies. Sorry everyone hope that you will forgive my bad manners, I should have posted an update last week, but I've been really really busy.
moon161,
I'll never convert to autocad, ever.
I've had the meeting with the MD, and he's going to keep Solidworks (I keep my job!), but he's not going to commit to a definite transition time for the rest of the AutoCad designers. He said the main reason for keeping Solidworks is for checking for interference, making sure that the parts fit together correctly, and building a 3D general arrangement.
The Manufacturing Manager still isn't happy, he and most of the Autocad gang see 3D as pointless. They are driving me nuts.
IWF.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
My little brother does Solid Works drafting for a company that makes industrial bread ovens and conveyor systems. He loves it. As the newer ME kids who know Solid Works get into corporate positions in companies they're blowing the doors off of the old ACAD guys. Or so the story goes. I'm Civil, I don't touch the thing.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
If I may ask, what company might that be? The reason for my interest is that I spent 14 years working as a machine designer and project engineer for a major supplier of commercial bakery equipment, which included "industrial bread ovens and conveyor systems" among other devices found in any large commercial baking operation.
Here's a bit of history about the company I worked for (there's a quote attributed to me about 60% into the article).
http:
Note that we were the American division of a multinational corporation headquartered in Peterborough, England which has since been sliced and diced and barely exists any more except in bits and pieces spread around the world (however they still owe me a pension when I turn 65 and which I get a letter each year telling me that the money is actually there and waiting for me).
Anyway, I'm just interested in which company that this might be that your brother is working for.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
Bro works for BakeTech. He's putting himself through college working an engineering tech position, but they have him doing full fledged engineering on some pretty large projects, because he's been with them for a while.
I'm led to believe there's not a lot of companies in that particular business space.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
http://www.baketech.com/products.htm
When you talk to your brother ask him to ask the people there if this company was somehow related to a company called 'Lanham Oven Company' or perhaps even 'Baker Perkins'. This equipment sure looks familiar.
I never worked for Lanham, but they were a competitor, however after I left Baker Perkins, they bought Lanham, but eventually they themselves got bought out and broken up into pieces. The tag line on Bake Tech's website about '18 years of Innovation' would put them right in the middle of that period.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliced_bread
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
From listing to my brother talk about it, there's a lot of corporate incest (no offense intended) in that industry. Everyone buying everyone else out, then breaking up to form new companies to compete with each other, inside a very small business space. ~3 companies doing most of the business.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
The way I translate it is:
- The workpieces and basically all in-house produced components are too heavy for a person to lift, thus 'heavy'. The products comprise large and small assemblies purchased outside, all brought together on a locally manufacured skid welded from rolled sections.
- Since the salesmen do all the """engineering""", they just budget a coupla weeks, literally, for the engineering staff to produce shop and assembly drawings, P&IDs, etc. These pre-production drawings are usually inaccurate and/or incomplete, because:
- When final assembly begins, it's discovered that some pieces are the wrong size or the wrong sex or don't do what the salesmen/engineers thought they did, so redesign occurs continuously on the shop floor, in hardware, and the drafties are left playing catch-up with the "as-builts", which is tricky because the units normally ship on the first day they are demonstrated to sort of work.
IOW, >nobody< does any real engineering, so I don't know where that comes from, except that the practitioners of all the silliness sincerely believe that some portion of it should be described as 'engineering'.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
It takes about the same amount of time to produce a design with 2D than with 3D, if there are no iterations or mods required (when does that ever happen...).
The big benefit of 3D parametric is when you need to make a design mod - it's hugely beneficial to be in 3D. Painful? Yes. More time focusing on software issues than good old technical content? Yes.
But when it works, it's really neat.
I suggest you hire a SW hotshot, who has worked in a bona fida manufacturing environment to help ease the transition. Every company needs a goto guy for any of these issues.
tg
RE: Justifying 3D CAD
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?