PE and state of employment
PE and state of employment
(OP)
Here is a question that I'd be very interested to get answers from persons in a position of hiring on.
In my current firm (approximately 40-50) people spread across 3 groups (about 8 in the pure structural engineering group) the PE is more for legitimacy with clients and respectability of the firm. In my 4+ years here no one other than a principal (and occasionally the Director of Engineering) has ever stamped drawings. That may be one or the reasons there isn't a big raise given for passing the PE - can't say for sure.
Does this hold true for other offices? This goes directly to my next question, which is.......
If someone is registered in state A (say Pennsylvania) and gets hired in state B (let's say Delaware), would you expect them to immediately get licensed in state B if you don't expect them to stamp drawings?
The reason for the question is that the whole engineering vs engineering technology degree thing is rearing its ugly head again. I'm taking the SE I in October after meeting the requirements in my state (which makes no distinction between engineering and engineering technology degrees for licensure). Once I pass it I'm going to be looking pretty hard for a new job that is closer to home, provides better hours, and provides better pay. I live 5 minutes from state B which has a longer waiting period to take the PE (for an engineering technology degree) than my state and I'm concerned that my likely inability to get reciprocity right away will limit my job opportunities and earning potential.
Any thoughts?
In my current firm (approximately 40-50) people spread across 3 groups (about 8 in the pure structural engineering group) the PE is more for legitimacy with clients and respectability of the firm. In my 4+ years here no one other than a principal (and occasionally the Director of Engineering) has ever stamped drawings. That may be one or the reasons there isn't a big raise given for passing the PE - can't say for sure.
Does this hold true for other offices? This goes directly to my next question, which is.......
If someone is registered in state A (say Pennsylvania) and gets hired in state B (let's say Delaware), would you expect them to immediately get licensed in state B if you don't expect them to stamp drawings?
The reason for the question is that the whole engineering vs engineering technology degree thing is rearing its ugly head again. I'm taking the SE I in October after meeting the requirements in my state (which makes no distinction between engineering and engineering technology degrees for licensure). Once I pass it I'm going to be looking pretty hard for a new job that is closer to home, provides better hours, and provides better pay. I live 5 minutes from state B which has a longer waiting period to take the PE (for an engineering technology degree) than my state and I'm concerned that my likely inability to get reciprocity right away will limit my job opportunities and earning potential.
Any thoughts?





RE: PE and state of employment
The PE can mean completely different things to different companies. I worked for one company that gave you an office and a promotion as soon as you passed the PE. While another gave you a small bonus for passing. I think when looking for engineering jobs it certainly helps you through the filtering process when they are selecting canidates.
I would just do whatever is easiest to pass the test then worry about reciprocity (that is unless of course you are talking about California).
RE: PE and state of employment
It will be 40 years this next June since I got my engineering degree (BSME) and 5 years later that I got my P.E. license. I worked for another 4 years as a machine designer for the American operation of a large multinational (headquartered in the UK) manufacturer of food and chemical processing equipment. During those 4 years I never needed to sign or stamp any drawings or documents since we had 2 other more senior P.E. in our office and it was only an issue in some special situations anyways, but the company needed to have at least one P.E. on staff so they paid our semi-annual fees and such, and besides, if I hadn't left when I did, I would have eventually been the 'senior P.E. in the office'.
However, I did leave in 1980 and moved from Michigan to California and took a job which was technically not what you would call true engineering job. I instead joined the company which had sold us our first CAD system 3 years earlier as I saw this as an opportunity to get in the ground floor of a new and expanding industry. When I joined the company it was into their sales department where my experience using the software, as well as my engineering background, was ideally suited to help with pre-sales activities such as demos and benchmarks as well as an occasional stint teaching a class or doing some post-sales servicing of our customers. During this time the P.E. on my business card helped give me credibility since this was a new industry and potential customers were looking for people who knew what they were talking about and the P.E. helped to ally their concerns. In 1987 I transferred to the develoment organization, first in product management and later as a special consultant to the head of development since while I wasn't a software developer, I did understand how this stuff was being used by customers and so again when I had to deal directly with both existing customers and the occasional potential opportunities which I would be asked to consult on, the P.E. was something which just gave me that extra respectability and integrity.
Now, even though I had moved to California I kept my Michigan registration and continued to pay my semiannual fee to the State of Michigan (which has always been covered by my employer despite the fact that there was no legal or professional need for licensed engineers to be on the staff of a software company). I continue to include the P.E. designation on my business card, my online signatures and I continue to display my license certificate in my office as proscribed by the State of Michigan (even though my office is in SoCal). Since there is no expectation that I will ever need to actually perform the duties of a licensed engineer in my current position, I've kept the license up-to-date and fully paid so that I can legitimately use it to the extent that I do, which I acknowledge is more for 'show' than for 'go', but since I've never misrepresented who I am and what role I play in my company, I feel that I have not violated any tenants of my profession or the agreement I made when I applied for and accepted my initial license.
I said my story was atypical, but it is one where my license has served me well, if perhaps in a secondary or oblique manner, but still one where a legitimate use was made of it. Now has it helped me in terms of compensation and promotion... I'd have to say definitely, even if in an unconventional way considering the direction my career took.
BTW, if anyone is wondering whether I've ever had second thoughts about leaving the 'real world' of engineering and moving to what some might call the 'dark side', well next week I celebrate my 30th anniversary with my current company (despite that fact that in those 30 years I've had 26 different business cards, many due to changes in ownership of the company) and look back on a great career (and hope to continue working for at least a few more years yet). While I sometimes miss the real world, I also know that those years I spent there allowed me to have the job I have now and with the chance to see the world (been to 30+ countries on company business) as well as doing some which I really enjoy.
Sorry for the long post but you asked for other people's stories, and that was mine
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: PE and state of employment
RE: PE and state of employment
The firm that you work for is consistant with my experience. The company that I worked for wanted to control who signed and sealed work. Only department heads/managers were permitted to seal. This was an attempt to maintain consistancy and force engineering managers to take more active roles in aspects of design.
There was not monetary incentive to get licensed, but it was know without it, there was a ceiling on your career.
I have gone through the process of getting licensure by comity in multiple states. Typically, you will have to wait to attain the minimum experience for a technology degree which is typically 8 years (I think).
As far as NCEES goes, I think that in order to attain a record, you would need the 8 years as well. NCEES has created the model licensing laws that most states use, so it would make sense that they would conform to them.
RE: PE and state of employment
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: PE and state of employment
Thanks, all!
RE: PE and state of employment
When selecting a candidate, a good work history was just as important as credentials.
RE: PE and state of employment
I'm one of those non-stamping PEs. All the projects I make decisions on are located in my home state.
I'm about to take a different job in a different state, where the projects are for various states. The decisions are similar, except that the company's customers (counterparts to my current job) have final approval of whatever it is I propose, which makes it even further removed from engineering responsibility than my current job. And a PE is not required for the job, though it's agreed it would enhance my credibility with the customers.
Nonetheless, I've decided it would be prudent to get licensed in what will be my new home state, and the new employer has said they'll cover E&O insurance. (I think I'm the only PE at the company.)
But what about the other states? Does this affect what can go on my business card? If no license is required for the job, but I do hold one, do I need to get one for all the other states too? "Call the board" isn't so simple when there are several boards to call, and I'm not sure how many licenses my employer feels like paying for.
I guess I'm not too far from JohnRBaker's situation?
OJD
RE: PE and state of employment
I noticed this is common in a lot engineering and architectural firms and often wondered why this is, because rarely are the owners/principals the design professional who is actually overseeing and managing the project. From a legal standpoint, is it easier for the owners to stamp all drawings in the event of an incident?
I'm starting to hold this theory that it is done to prevent their underlings from building up their resume's and potentially leaving for a better oppurtunity. It seems to me like it is a lot more impressive to list a large number of projects for which you were the engineer of record, instead of only being able to claim a management role. Just a thought
RE: PE and state of employment
RE: PE and state of employment
Then again, that's crazy talk.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: PE and state of employment
I have been to the engineering board meetings and have seen many people denied license consideration because of the technology degree. It just amazes me how many engineering technolgy programs are out there when you consider how useless the degree is when trying to get a PE license (at least in FL where I practice).
RE: PE and state of employment
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field
RE: PE and state of employment
I was married with kids and working when I went back to school, so I didn't have the luxury of picking up and moving across the state to get an "engineering" degree. I took what was available to me in my area. I'm pleased with my education, I'm just not pleased with the way my education is recognized by some states.
RE: PE and state of employment
The number of structures classes that an undergrad CE takes would be highly dependent on which institution they went to. Where I did my undergrad, everyone had at least 4 structures classes, and those that wanted to truly specialize and become structural engineers could take the additional courses which involved things like matrix methods, finite element methods, wood design, foundations and advanced courses in concrete and steel design.
At least where I'm from, there was little variation between universities in their CE programs, and where you did see the differences would be in the advanced classes that are available in the fourth year of the program.
RE: PE and state of employment
In fact, our freshmen year was so generic that despite the fact that you had to declare your intended degree program upon being accepted at the university (but NOT your specialization), that if you wanted to change to a different engineering degree program between your 1st and 2nd year, you could do so without really losing any ground (I switched from EE to ME and all it basically meant was that I ended-up taking my economics classes as a freshman rather than as a sophomore).
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
RE: PE and state of employment
I understand that's a relatively small sample, but I can't imagine it's THAT skewed.
Part of the reason is that ABET requires proficiency in 4 disciplines for a CE degree, which means your exposure to any single one of them is fairly limited. This also depends on the program requirements - I know some colleges require a greater number of credits for an undergrad degree, but, generally speaking, that is not the case.
RE: PE and state of employment
Yes, there is a distinction between a technology degree and an engineering degree and there should be. ABET has it right and so do the state boards of engineering licensing.
Many states do not recognize technology degrees for engineering licensing. One reason for this is that the average technology graduate does not have the capability to pass the two exams for licensure. You are an exception. I know several others who are similar to you; however, that is not the norm.
Corporate policies vary from firm to firm. For 18 years I worked for an internationally known and rated engineering firm. In that firm, you had to be designated by a review board to serve as the "engineer in responsible charge". The review was rigorous and was done to protect the interests of the company as well as provide a career path to the technical group. In that firm, EVERY report had to be reviewed by one of those "knighted" individuals. I was one for many years until I left the firm. My signature and seal went on many documents, but only those for which I had control over the final result and presentation. I was ultimately an officer in the company (VP), but that had no bearing on my responsibility as an engineer...it seemed to be more a conciliatory promotion for my contribution to the company. In short, I was responsible for my engineering decisions long before I was an officer of the company.
To further answer your question about licensure, if you are hired in a state where you are not licensed, I would expect you to get licensed as quickly as possible, without regard to you status in the company.
As I've said before, you will likely have no problem with the SE1 exam. I expect that when you pass it, you will seek employment elsewhere, which you should. Once you have the first ABET/NCEES licensure, the others will be easier.
Good luck!
RE: PE and state of employment
Also, in my graduate studies (so far) at a top ten undergrad school, I've been breezing through. I had an advanced concrete class as my first grad class, and there were only two topics that I hadn't learned in my undergrad coursework (and one more topic that we went more in-depth with).
I understand that state boards need to make the distinction with broad brushes. The interesting thing is that now that NCSEA is pushing for more
structural-specific coursework, structural engineering might require less classes in other disciplines.
Thanks for the input on the licensure issue. I really didn't intend this to turn into a debate on the acceptability of an ET degree.
RE: PE and state of employment
Perhaps the differences between my experience and yours in relation to the structural courses offered, could be due to the differences in licensing requirement between the US and Canada. In Canada, generally there is no separate SE license, just the standard P.Eng (although that might have changed for somewhere like B.C). Secondly, we are not required to pass a technical exam if we graduated from an accredited institution, therefore most universities follow very similar curriculum. The assessment of an engineer's qualifications would come primarily from his supervisors who would have a better idea of the candidate's qualifications than the number of structural based courses that they took.
Although what is interesting from my program, is that if you're something other than a structural engineer, there are a lot of subjects that you won't even come close to using.