F1 and Turbos
F1 and Turbos
(OP)
Hey everyone,
hearing some rumours that F1 wants to switch to downsized turbocharged engines, I was wondering in what respect F1 turbocharger differ from production car turbochargers. What turbocharger innovations would you like to see in F1? Ceramic wheels? Sheetmetal housings? Any crazy ideas?
Catho
hearing some rumours that F1 wants to switch to downsized turbocharged engines, I was wondering in what respect F1 turbocharger differ from production car turbochargers. What turbocharger innovations would you like to see in F1? Ceramic wheels? Sheetmetal housings? Any crazy ideas?
Catho





RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
turbine wheel
turbine housing
compressor wheel
compressor housing
RE: F1 and Turbos
Regards
Pat
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RE: F1 and Turbos
The first reason that comes to mind is the extremely high stiffness to weight ratio. I'm not saying I know exactly how to build it or even that they would use carbon for those parts but it would be the first material I looked too if I was taxed with designing a turbo with virtually no budget. There is a reason almost every part on a modern formula one car is made of the stuff.
RE: F1 and Turbos
Can you share with us some thermal properties for the proper carbon composite at say, 1800-2000°F?
I'd also be interested to know the manufacturing method for a carbon composite compressor or turbine wheel (and how the desired tensile strength is achieved along with the aero shape.
RE: F1 and Turbos
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: F1 and Turbos
the turbine would be and EXCELLENT component to make from carbon/ceramic (brakes are made from this)
you will see cylinders made from Aluminum embedded with Si-Ca (also know as metal matrix composites) your headers and exxhuast valves will remain iconel. they would probably like to use titanium, but with being mandatory to run petrol and not alky, they cant take the heat...
check this place out for lots of "in the know" material
http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/welcome/
RE: F1 and Turbos
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: F1 and Turbos
turbine housings and wheels get red hot.
Brake rotors do not get quite as hot as exhausts and I believe F1 rotors only last one race.
Also carbon/carbon materials are quite brittle. Even high nickel cast iron housings crack fairly regularly.
Also carbon/carbon materials are VERY expensive.
Regards
Pat
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RE: F1 and Turbos
Cost would be a complete non issue were talking about a sport where budgets are almost non existent. There are already people with way smaller budgets and far less knowledge using carbon for engine sleeves and pistons for the same reasons; lower mass, higher strength, and lower thermal expansion.
Not sure why your so ready to attack the idea of using carbon composites, what would you suggest they be made out of?
RE: F1 and Turbos
Unfortunately, today, F1 would not be sustainable >as a business<, and therefore not sustainable at all, without some limits on the costs. Standardized engines are one such limit.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: F1 and Turbos
Regards
Pat
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RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
Every turbo I ever saw being dynoed had the turbine glowing red hot.
Every housing I saw with Ceramachrome coating had a dull finish after a few miles. That happens when the aluminium in the coating boils off.
Regards
Pat
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RE: F1 and Turbos
Do you have the yield strength vs temperature data for carbon composite (as used in F1 brakes) at 2000F?
RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
Carbon or aluminium are OK for the compressor, although I expect thin is as important as light for a compressor wheel. Titanium or carbon should be better than aluminium when modulus and density are taken into account to design it thin and rigid.
Aluminium is obviously fine for compressor housings. The Garrett sitting at my feet has an aluminium compressor housing.
I really don't think any type of carbon will withstand constant blasts of hot exhaust gas while under high cyclic loads.
Regards
Pat
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RE: F1 and Turbos
Can bond it.
Can weld it
Can machine it, (Mill eg)
Can cut it (hacksaw etc)
Can thread it.
Density between 1.4 to 1.7gm/cc
very low coefficient of Friction (basically graphite)
It handles thermal shock extremely well.
CTE in plain is virtually non-existent
Dimensionally stable
Design to fatigue allowable about 120N/mm^2
Limitation is that it will oxidise after 450 Deg.C.
Cheapest source in UK (there is a lot of scrap around and no use).
RE: F1 and Turbos
Is that like the Chebby Vega?
RE: F1 and Turbos
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
Aluminum anneals around 600f and melts around 600 c. EGTs on a highly tuned street car can go over 900 c. I wouldn't be surprised if F1 technology pushed it further than that.
I also don't know of a thermoset or thermoplastic composite that can handle anywhere near those temps. I did a lot of research a while back trying to find a very high temp nonmetallic composite and found some very expensive aerospace materials that could take a lot of heat. I don't remember the max but I am pretty sure it wasn't near that high.
The other thing to remember is the highes temp composites (At leas that I know of) are rated for intermittent high temps.
I would imagine a ceramic turbine wheel would be about as good as you would get. I don't know a whole lot about solid carbon materials though.
I have thought a lot about a thinner lighter turbine housing. I thought about sheet metal and it may be possible but I see downsides as well. If the material is too thin or not rigid enough it could move around way too much with heat and vibration.
If I were to make my own I think I would probably try and machine two halves out of 321 SS or other very high temp metal then weld them together. You can already get cast SS turbine housings which may be a good option with a little PNP work.
One downside is SS can have a pretty high CTE
The compressor housing and possibly wheel could be done in composite. I think gains would be negligible but in F1 eyes maybe worth it.
I'm sure they would have crazy anti lag systems though and at that point who cares about spool time.
RE: F1 and Turbos
RE: F1 and Turbos
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: F1 and Turbos
http://www.tdi-engines.com/products.php
PJGD
RE: F1 and Turbos
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: F1 and Turbos
On the other hand you don't get anything for free and while the generator was making power the exhaust backpressure would go up considerably making the motor work a lot less efficiently. It also seems you may want to alter cam timing if you had too much backpressure to keep exhaust from pushing back into the cyl.
With the added weight and complexity I have a hard time imagining them doing this on F1 but I guess it's possible. Most other anti lag systems require fuel which is a very valued resource where in rally it's not so much.
RE: F1 and Turbos
At least, modern rally cars certainly don't sound like they did fifteen years ago. No more bangbang. I suspect that limitations on the number of spare turbochargers per car/team had a lot to do with that.
RE: F1 and Turbos
The 1700 Ford BDA has a turbo, but Nic doesn't like turbo lag so he uses the exhaust from a helicopter APU turbine to keep the turbo spinning - no connection to the piston engine exhaust at all. This is a gross over-simplification, a lot of thought has gone into the system and indeed the whole car.
It goes rather well and the soundtrack is a bit unusual too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk
Nick
RE: F1 and Turbos
Regards
Pat
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RE: F1 and Turbos
Engineering is the art of creating things you need, from things you can get.
RE: F1 and Turbos
Jurica