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New engineer feeling like failure
18

New engineer feeling like failure

New engineer feeling like failure

(OP)
I'm having an extremely difficult time at work right now, guys. I'm a little over a year into my first job after college. I graduated with a civil engineering degree and am working as a field engineer. Right now I'm administering a state transportation contract and have never felt more incompetent or like more of a failure. The job was only about $500,000 to begin with, but the project is running way over budget (like 20%). I'm having to learn ALL of the state reporting/materials/documentation/specs all at once and try to pull the project together.

Besides trying to actually learn how this type of project is built, I'm expected to do all of the paperwork necessary. I literally spend about 15-16 hours every day, and usually about 12 hours each weekend trying to seem like I somewhat know what I'm doing.

I'm trying as hard as I can but it's still not good enough. Sometimes, trying our best just doesn't cut it. I was valedictorian in HS and magna cum laude in college, but I realize book smarts don't always equate to ability either. I like to think this type of work just doesn't suit me, but how bad I'm failing makes me question my engineering judgment overall.

So what are people's thoughts? Are these kinds of mistakes and stumbling blocks common, or is my ability as an engineer questionable? I just can't continue failing like this. My confidence is rock bottom and that further degrades my ability to make decisions...

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Personally, I do not know how you can "administer" something you have never had any experience designing outside of school, if even there.  

State paperwork can be a headache, but that should come with time.   

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto:  KISS
Motivation:  Don't ask

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Did your employer train you how to do all these things they are asking you to do or was it a sink or swim type arrangement?  Sometimes management doesn't have a good grasp of what engineers can and can't do, unless they are also engineers themselves, and subsequently they get unrealistic expectations about what a single person can accomplish.

Are you having trouble understanding what you are supposed to be doing or just having trouble finding the time to actually do it?  Learning new specs and requirements while actually trying to use them under a deadline can be a hair raising experience for the timid.  

What are your supervisors or co-workers saying?  Did they think you already understood how to run this type of project or was this supposed to be your learning endeavor?  I don't know how civil engineering projects operate but isn't there someone above you who should be answering your questions and overseeing the project?

 

http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregtirevold

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Quote:

Sometimes, trying our best just doesn't cut it. I was valedictorian in HS and magna cum laude in college, but I realize book smarts don't always equate to ability either.

Being drastically thrown to the wolves is enough to make anyone second guess their abilities, but don't fall into that trap.  You are obviously an intelligent young man, so keep your head up and keep fighting.

Please elaborate further on your supervisor situation and whom you report to so we can better assess your circumstances.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Good advice from abusementpark. I'd have a similar question - what does your supervisor suggest you do to get your arms around this?
  

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

8
You know, I'm probably the worst person on eng-tips.com for saying things like "get over yourself and get the job done" and other inspirational tripe.  But I'm not going to say that here.  Actually, I have never known an engineer who has not at some time felt too small for the job he was asked to do.  We've all done it.  One day you'll notice that that you ended the day without feeling like you hindered the project.  One day you'll be able to answer a question with the confidence that the answer was "good enough", and it is down hill from there.  

I've found that the hardest concept for new engineers is "good enough".  We live in an imperfect world and questions with "right" or "wrong" answers get dealt with by other people.  Our choices are usually between an option with 50 positives and 70 negatives (none of which are definitely life threatening) and another option with 120 positives and one really awful negative.  Making the choice that advances the project without putting a worker or the public at risk is why we make the big bucks, but the options are never perfect.

I've been doing engineering for 30 years and still figure that any day I don't learn something is not as good a day as it could have been.  Good luck to you.

David

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

(OP)
Thanks for the responses guys. I have a supervisor that has been doing this for quite a while that I report to. He is running a different project though that consumes all of his time, so basically everything has been pushed to me on this project. I think they are assuming this is a learning endeavor for me. I don't know how they could think otherwise.

He answers questions and is very knowledgeable, but there's so many things I miss reading about that he doesn't tell me about until after it's done, so I spend time going back and redoing them or what not.

This company has been sink or swim since I started. They threw me out on a couple projects last summer, only it was city contracts, so now all of this state stuff is new to me again. On this I have a lot higher powers to report to, so any mistakes I make are scrutinized by the state auditors. The stakes are a lot higher. Part of the reason this project is so over budget is because of design errors and simple omissions that really add up in cost, but it's easy to look at it as things I'm doing wrong because I'm so inexperienced. It is a combination of things, really.

zdas04: AMEN! That is exactly how I feel every day! I'm a perfectionist, which I realize can be a good trait sometimes but oftentimes is just a hindrance. I'm constantly forced to decide what's 'good enough' and often find myself second guessing decisions I have to make quickly. I do feel like I'm a hindrance to the project, and that's a frustrating feeling.

It might sound crazy, but I don't even mind these situations as much for what it puts me through. I think I'm growing as a person and as an engineer. Rather, it worries me more that I'm doing a disservice to the client or taxpayers when I'm forced to make these decisions that I haven't dealt with before. My biggest fear is that someone looks back on what I've done and think, "What the heck was he thinking? This was an obvious choice."

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

The Smart Man recognizes what he doesn't know.
The Wise Man knows how to ask for help.

I suspect with Valedictorian/MagnaCumLaude you've never been faced with the possibility of real failure.  Gaining humility is usually painful, but well worth it.  Failure ain't so bad, the true measure of Worth is how you recover from it.  You're young enough to bounce back from almost anything.

A Wise Friend helped me put it all into perspective once upon a time.  After it blew up in our faces and we had a terribly embarrassing mess on our hands, he turned to me and said:

So, whatcha gonna do NOW, College Boy?  wink

It'll be fine.  Get on with it.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

huskybuilder...My experience is similar to David's with a couple of years tacked on.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that the young engineers who are put into "sink or swim" situations are usually those that their supervisors are fairly sure will grow from the experience.  It is not in your supervisor's best interest to let you sink...his reputation depends to some degree on you and it doesn't sound like he's a slacker...just wrapped up.

Most of us here in the forums who have a bit of gray hair can say "Been there, done that" and most of us would agree that we got better as a result...either positively or negatively!

I applaud your tenacity and perseverence.  Both will serve you well in your career.  Gut it out and you might be surprised that at the end someone will say "You did a better job with that mess than anyone expected!"

Good luck and stay on the track you've laid.  It seems to be a good one.   

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Working 15-16 hours on week days and 12 hours on weekends it too much!  It's a terrible situation for you.  I never had it that bad, but I sometimes bite off more than I can chew and end up regretting it.  It's important to learn how to say no, not just for your own good but for the good of the project.  You are not at your best working that much.

Too late for that now.  So, what do you do?  Letting go of perfection, as previous posters have advised, is a great start.  I would also add that you should start documenting the goings on.  Take time to prepare a daily or weekly report that outlines the progress and lists the outstanding issues and difficulties.  Make it as concise and as readable as possible, and make sure it's not whiny.  Submit them to your supervisor regularly.  Make the issues his or her problem and less yours.  You are just one year out of school and should have more support.  After this, just do your best and let it go.  You should also place some reasonable limits on the time you spend working.  Your time is valuable, and you need to have a life.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

huskybuilder,

You do not have the support you need.  But o.k. who does.  I understand having a huge project dumped on you right out of the gate.  I want you to remember two things.

1.) You feeling like a failure is a good thing.  All those people who really are failures, don't know that they are failures.  That you can sense it and it bothers you says you care, and you will get better with time.  You would get better faster with better supervision, but even without you will muddle though and become a great engineer.  zdas04's description of growing into a competent engineer is spot on.  

2.) You are spending too much time hacking away and not enough time sharpening the axe.  If it's paperwork that's getting on top of you, hire someone to help with the paperwork.  If you can't hire someone, deputize someone who already works for you and delegate to them.  You don't have to do it all yourself and you might even find someone who knows the paperwork shuffle and can teach you.  The important point is you need to free up your time so you can relax, or you and your work quality will suffer.

Beyond these two points remember, you may not do the best job, but you are doing the best you can do, which for being thrown to the wolves is the best your company can expect.  And that is probably good enough.  As you grow as an engineer your good enough will get better.  Keep up your spirits and don't stop believing in yourself.  You are doing a good job.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

You're doing 80 hrs or so a week, presumably only getting paid for 40, and you're worried that you're ripping off the tax payer? Your company might be ripping them off, pawning off an inexperienced guy on them, but I don't think you personally are.

I've felt overwhelmed many a time in my career, not just right at the beginning but even later when given a new task or role I didn't have much of an idea about.  I generally just muddled through best I could, and usually did OK, though there's one arguable failure that comes back to haunt me now and then.

However, even on this it's basically been accepted that my company was trying to do too much too quickly and that was the root of the problem, even though I've beaten myself up about it.

Sometimes, it really isn't your fault when things go wrong.  

As Zdas says you have to learn when good enough, not perfect, is good enough.  Then you need to calibrate what you consider good enough!

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RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Zdas is mellowing... and deserves a few stars for his excellent post.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

A significant problem that people with new management responsibilities is the inability to delegate or determine who on the job can truly help them. Do not be afraid or too proud to question subordinates or State representatives regarding requirements & work methodology. Assign subordinates additional responsibility. You may be doing too much on your own!!  

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Not sure about others here, but when I was bottom of the barrel new guy, there wasn't anyone to 'delegate' to.  Maybe it's different for the OP in which case good advice.  However, when I started out a lot of the stuff I got had been delegated to me, and I was the bottom rung.

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RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I recently had a student come to me and say that he felt overwhelmed. I told him "Welcome to the natural state of an engineer!" However, I agree with the others that you are working too hard and need to get outside assistance. You were not prepared by your company to take on an assignment like this by yourself at your experience level.

Finally, please remember to take some time to unwind on a regular basis. It sounds like you need it.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
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RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Unfortunately in todays economy everyone runs very lean and new grads can be put in spots like this.  I would guess your company believes in your ability and trusts that you can accomplish the desired results.  I would also guess they expect you to be able to do the engineering side of the project.  However they also should realize you don't know everything.  Don't be afraid to ask the older guys for help/advice.  Often us older engineers forget that you don't know certain things that we take for granted.

Your company should have a compliance officer or someone specializing in state permitting and requirements.  You should lean heavy on this person for help with at least this aspect.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Quote (graybeach):

Take time to prepare a daily or weekly report that outlines the progress and lists the outstanding issues and difficulties.  Make it as concise and as readable as possible, and make sure it's not whiny.  Submit them to your supervisor regularly.

In addition to making sure your report doesn't sound whiny, always make sure that you report the good with the bad.  Showing that you are making progress despite the issues that are present will lend credence to your reports while also making you look better.  Don't overstate the situation in either direction - a clear, objective summary is best.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Ask for help.  This isn't a homework assignment where you have to do all your own work.  No one should work 16 hour days.  You will burn yourself out in a hurry.  Talk to your boss.  And 20% over budget on a $500K job isn't too bad.  $500K hardly buys anything these days.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I am wondering if this sink or swim is really a good thing.  To me it sounds like you have been given a task that is over your head and beyond your abilities, so don't feel like a failure.

We work on some pretty sizeable contracts and there are a lot of requirements and specifications.  Even for a senior guy, this can be daunting. But here we would not put an engineer with one year of work experiene in the position of being the lead engineer on a major project.  We might give a new guy a very small project to handle, but for a large project, a new guy would be assigned to work under a senior engineer, and the senior engineer would assign tasks and review the work of the junior engineer. The greenest engineer we have put in place as a project lead had five years experience out of school.

I guess what I am saying is the choice is up to you.  You are not a failure as an engineer, you are just being asked to do something that should probably go to someone with more seniority.   If you think this will benefit you in the long run, suck it up and get it done, if not, maybe it is time to start looking for another job.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

A star to Kirbywan fpr the statement under the sign-off.  It's great: "Remember, first define the problem, then solve it"

Sounds simple but I encounter lots of engineers who don't do this well.

If you haven't done so, it might help you a lot to define your problem with a big matrix of all your deliverables, with due dates, and a remarks column to list the issues you are having with getting them done.  Color in the cells as you complete the tasks (include this in your reports).  For some reason I alway use orange for completion because it's such a happy color.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Everyone has covered the your already swimming part. Something that I remembered when doing contracts for government's way back was that you would get heaps of stuff to fill in. I would spend Hrs filling in each line appropriately, however as it turns out, you don't need to fill in each line of the form, not even every second, only the key info. Don't try to be too good, no one appreciates it.  

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

At least you realize when you're screwing up.  That's about ten times better than screwing up and not realizing it.

:)


You're in a pickle, because honestly the best thing for you would be to work somewhere where you had a direct supervisor you could learn from.  Engineering Professional Development is and always has been all about learning under older smarter folks, and you're not being afforded that opportunity where you work.  If this was 2007 I'd say get another job.

BUT it's 2010, and if you quit your job you'll be gaining experience at McDonalds or Burger King, so be thankful you're getting any experience at all.  Tough it out.  Things are tough all around.

 

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Point of reference:

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/110277/some-firms-struggle-to-hire-despite-high-unemployment

When you get out of a good college but have no experience you're definitively a "middle skilled" engineer.  Companies aren't hiring "middle skilled" people right now, just labor and high skill, because of the way the market is shifting.  So yes, your job  may suck, but at least you have a job in your profession.

A good friend of mine is in his mid 30s, is a civil PE with a decade of experience in project management, and he just got a job at the US Post Office to try and make ends meet.  

Don't let him steal your job, hehe.  He'd love to have it.



Tough all around.

 

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

3
Perfectionism is the problem that you need to overcome.  You grew accustomed to getting all of the answers right in school, and now you are working on problems that don't necessarily have a right or wrong answer.  School spoiled you because of the nearly instantaneous, and in your case, positive feedback.  

Your boss may not think that you are doing as poorly as you think.  The fact that a $500K job is 20% over budget means that your employer is willing to spend money on you to learn the ropes.  The project is not complete, and until it is, you are under the total budget.  Besides, who set the milestones for the project?  Could it be that they are not able to do their job right?  Also, your company may have taken on the project knowing it to be a money-loser in order to get other work.

You should look for a job that suits your need to be absolutely correct.  You may find that you are not happy with engineering because there are too many gray areas.   

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

In today's economy companies have less employees, who are doing double work.
Stick in there, when the economy gets better, so will your job.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I gave dvd a star for his perfectionism comment.

Pay close attention to his advise, and it's probably time to see someone that can help you deal with it.

 

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

3
Forget about the perfectionism comment.  Your goal is NOT to lower your standards, but, rather, to improve your knowledge and skills.  

I've been an engineer for over 25 years, and I still bristle whenever some old guy tries to tell anyone to "lower your standards."  Sometimes you have to accept a B, but don't let some C student talk you out of trying for an A.

I suggest you find a mentor.  If you can't find one where you work, then look outside.  One outside possibility is through your local professional engineer society.  NSPE (nspe.org) has a formal mentoring program (see attached link).  Find your local chapter.  Then find out when the next meeting of the Construction, Government, or Young Engineers interest group.  Go to a meeting.  Talk to the engineers.  Find someone you feel comfortable talking to and who might be willing to be your mentor.  Things likely won't turn around overnight, but, at the very least, you won't feel alone.

You say you are "administering a state transportation contract," but you don't say whether you're working for the state or the contractor.  I ask, because you'll want to avoid conflicts of interest with a prospective mentor, but I would expect any NSPE mentor with any integrity will help you steer clear such issues.

The world is full of good, helpful people.  You sometimes have to work to find them.

Good luck.

PT

Fudd's First Law of Opposition: "If you push something hard enough, it will fall over."  

Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law: "It comes in, it must go out."   

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I certainly do not advocate lowering one's standards.  I know that there are individuals who cannot deal with uncertainty; everything has to be either black or white.  My advice is to recognize that quality and seek out work that better suits one's need to get the absolute correct answer.  I mean no offense; I recognize myself in the situation. The OP will be happier in the long run by not compromising.  

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Perhaps the OP could explain what types of decisions he's "forced to make."  Is this a "project management" issue or an "engineering design" issue?

He talks about "having to learn ALL of the state reporting/materials/documentation/specs all at once and try to pull the project together" and "any mistakes I make are scrutinized by the state auditors."  These sound like project management issues.

On the other hand, he talks about "design errors and simple omissions that really add up in cost.... I'm constantly forced to decide what's 'good enough'."  These sound like engineering design issues.

I don't know many people who excel at both project management and engineering design.  Sometimes it's simply a matter of which you enjoy more.  I've done both at one time or another, and I definitely enjoy design work more than project management.

Unless he just doesn't like civil engineering, my recommendation in either case is to find a mentor.  Find someone who is experienced in managing state construction projects or who is experienced in engineering design for state construction projects.  

Good luck.

PT
 

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

(OP)
So much great advice here guys. This is why I love these forums.

peaktop: This is the construction phase of the project, in which we shouldn't HAVE to do design, but this project was pushed through quickly for funding and the plans were less than stellar. So, we have had to make significant changes to make up for plan errors. That's where the engineering design comes in. The management aspect is present too. That should be the primary focus, but we're working with a bad design to begin with. And, I enjoy civil engineering (at least I think so) but it's just hard to muddle along with seemingly nothing going right.

dvd: I've often thought that myself. I would do extremely well in an environment where everything is black and white. Does that exist in the civil engineering field? I don't really think so, so that means I'll have to adjust.

For those suggesting I better delegate to subordinates... I don't have any :)

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Black and White exists.  It is on Cop cars and Ansel Adams prints.  People working at the DMV often have a single right answer (but not always even there).  Cashier at McDonalds doesn't see many shades of grey.  Oh yeah, you said in civil engineering.  Sure, you can quit or not quit.  Beyond that there really aren't too many binary decisions.

David

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

zdas is on target.  Life is shades of gray (and I don't mean life is drab and dreary).  Almost anything we do is done with incomplete information.  This applies to "we" as human beings, not just as engineers.

Acting on incomplete information has a rational aspect and an irrational aspect.  On the rational side, how do I create the optimum circumstances for maximizing my chance to make a right decision (not necessarily *the* right decision)?  On the irrational (psychological?) side, how can I be happy, or content, or satisfied with the my decision?  

Here's a thought experiment.  Your task is to select the best ear of corn from a row of corn plants.  The rules, though, are 1) you may only traverse the row once, 2) you may not go back to a plant once you have passed it, and 3) you don't get to see the rest of the row once you make your selection.  

How do you choose which ear to pick?  A rational analysis yields many different possible solutions.  (I don't know if there is a *best* solution.)

But, and perhaps more importantly, how do you psychologically cope with the known and unknown consequences of your choice?  You know how your chosen ear  compares to the ones you pass by, but you don't know how it compares to the ones you never got to.  Did you choose one after passing by others that were better?  Did you settle for a lesser quality ear because you were getting close to the end of the row?

A long-winded post, but my bottom-line advice is "Make your decision, and don't look back."  In other words, learn from the past, but don't dwell on the past.

Good luck (and find that mentor).

PT

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

-    90% of project management is to decide who are the right people to talk to each other and bring them together
-    don't get lost in details and
-    never try to do everything yourself (because sometimes people who feel ignored will "teach you a lesson")

Kind Regards,
hahor
 

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

you should give up the idea of being perfect. I've been in the engineering field (civil and structural) for 30 years, and am still waiting to see a project where everything is perfect from start to finish. It is always a sum of right and wrong decisions. I once read an interview with a stock broker (not the type of guys we see today, he used only his own money). The interviewer said "if  you can make a living out of your investment decisions, you must be really good at it". His response was: "that's an illusion. 52% of my decisions are right, 48% are wrong, and I live on the difference"   

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

None of us can *be* perfect.  All of us can (should) *strive* to be perfect.

There's a huge difference between a standard of perfection and recognizing that decisions made on incomplete information are necessarily imperfect. The question is how to make decisions given incomplete information.  One thing we don't do, IMO, is lower our standard of perfection.

Engineers are obligated to practice their profession to ensure public safety.  

What would we think of a brain surgeon who said, "52% of my decisions are right, 48% are wrong, and I live on the difference"?

When plant workers die from a pump that explodes because you undersized a pipe, it's pretty poor consolation to say "I gave up being perfect."
 

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

huskybuilder,
You have had your baptism of fire early. Building before engineering is complete is comonplace. In civil projects, soil conditions often are substantially different than originally thought or bid upon. Engineering may be poorly performed. Indian burial mounds and other archeological discoveries can lead to unexpected delays and much paperwork.

It's the world of construction! Expect the unexpected!

 

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I think we all have our ideas on what standards we need to keep, and what our moral obligation is. But some people take themselves too seriously, and they have a hard time distinguishing what is important and what is not. The hardest people to work with are the straight "A" students that have no concept of balance. They are stubborn, and they make lousy team players. There is a place for them, but it's not usually working with other people. Of course there are exceptions.

Balance is what's important. You are going to have a very hard time adjusting to the real world if your only focus is on being "perfect" every time, all the time. You're going to suffer from "paralysis of Analysis" and not get much done.

Don't be full of yourself, be reasonable, listen to others, and take what you need. Don't toss off advise of others because you might not agree with them, simply listen and learn.

No one is talking about "lowering your standards"; what we are talking about, is finding a way to balance your life between achieving and knowing when to settle. Anyone that suggests that finding balance is lowering your standards is missing the message.

There is a time to be perfect, and a time not to be perfect; successful people understand how to deal with these choices. Spending time perfecting something that does not need to be perfect allows you the time to make important decisions on something that really does need to be perfect. If you want to be a stubborn person, and only thrive to be perfect on every single thing you do, that's OK, but you need to learn to delegate work on things that mean little so you don't waste your time.



 

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Your engineering training has taught you how to learn, so do some research along the way. Most operators in the field know that engineers have analytical ability, and they expect you to put it to work.

You should derive pleasure in being able to enter new areas and make a difference. In many instances I have crossed over into areas outside my ME degree scope and made improvements.

A good example was when we were designing for vectored thrust of a jet engine with afterburning. Secondary flow in a curved flow path causes a split rotating flow like in chimney flow on a windy day. Considering this phenomenom impelled us to design for two sector burning to avoid a hot spot on the outside of the curved path. This kind of revelation is satisfying to engineers. Have fun.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I've been trying to think of something that can actually directly help you overcome your current situation beside the above.

I'm not sure I've come up with anything but...

When I feel overwhelmed, especially when it's not so much I have too much to do as I don't know how to do it, I sometimes find myself almost paralyzed into inaction or at least finding other things to do which perhaps are less critical.

So obviously the general things about prioritizing your work (perhaps fairly brutally) can help, but sometimes you just have to get stuck into that nasty task you've been avoiding/hedging around and plod away on it till you're done.

Not exactly inspirational, but maybe it'll help.

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RE: New engineer feeling like failure

It seems like you are not getting the mentoring that a young engineer needs, which is not a great situation.  Just do your best to make the most of it.

Also, make sure that your solutions are both correct and efficient.  If you're working 14 hour days daily, there is a hole somewhere... either they have given you way too much work, or you're taking too long to do it.  We had an employee a couple of years ago who sunk 60 hours into a project doing a finite element model of a small tower on top of a roof.  Should have taken less than a day.  He didn't last here long.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Huskybuilder:
I think you said your direct supervisor is doing essentially the same job as you are, but on a bigger job, and is very busy also.  They have no incentive to see you or your job fail.  Maybe they don't even know how you are struggling since nothing has broken or failed yet, except your self confidence.  Your boss should know your situation, and you've told us, but not him.  Tell him you need to talk and would like to buy him a beer some afternoon, after work.  That might be the best few hours, out of your 16 hour day, that you have spent in the last few months.  I think you said he was a sharp guy, you have to turn him into your first, best, mentor at the moment, and make these relaxed meetings a regular event, just to kick back a bit and learn from him.

Wow...   There's an incredible amount of good advice in the posts above.  I didn't realize a bunch of engineers could be so darn touchy-feely.  This is a darn good thread about an unfortunate situation, which I'll bet you'll get through with flying colors, because many of us have made the same journey, and are still standing and engineering.  

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Huskybuilder,

I think that you would be happier in a design-type position.  You seem to be a person who tends to get swept up in details.  There is more black-and-white in design work than in project work.  Project work to me is like watching a slow-motion train wreck: you have no control over some of the screw-ups that happen, but all of the responsibility for them.  I recommend that you get involved in an area where you are responsible for your own triumphs and failures, based on what you know and your own work ethic.  Not everyone should be a manager or a leader.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

(OP)
hahor, what do you mean about people feeling ignored might teach me a lesson? You mean coworkers or contractors?

FACS and KENAT, I hear you about paralysis of analysis. I think that's a fairly common problem for some people, mainly perfectionists. I know I've suffered from it in the past, but I think I've been improving.

dhengr, I agree it's a great thread with a lot of good advice. I think I will take your advice sometime. He's a good guy to sit down and have a beer with.

dvd, you basically expressed in your last post what I've been telling myself all along. That's exactly the sentiment I feel, but I didn't know if it's a rational one or not. I almost feel like I need to develop this better sense of 'good enough' that's been talked about extensively in the thread if I'm really going to grow to be a better engineer. I've told myself before, I need to do work where I'M in control of it, not observing, inspecting, directing other's work. I love the quote about the slow motion train wreck. Describes many construction situations to a tee.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

"The hardest people to work with are the straight 'A' students that have no concept of balance" is not "talking about lowering your standards" as "My kid can beat up your honor student" is not talking about lowering your standards.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Huskybuilder,
I sounds to me as if you are learning enough and are aware of your surroundings. I think you will be fine. Judging by your responses; you seem smart enough to pass by the irrelevant analogies and comparisons that are being thrown around.

Don't feel inadequate, feel inexperienced and absorb what you see and hear.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Off topic:

@ beej67

It is that bad in the US now? "Tough all around".

I just saw an article saying that The Labor Department predicts that job growth for civil engineers will be about 24 percent over the next decade or so—well above average.
I guess it hasn't started yet.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

It's interesting how "teamwork" doesn't refute concerns about lowered standards.  This is especially apparent when teamwork is combined with "balance," as if positive teamwork balances negative low standards.  The argument is "We're not lowering standards, but, even if we were, you need to be a 'team player' to 'get much done."'  The teamwork rebuttal would be more persuasive if, instead, it were argued that teamwork actually enhances quality, reduces errors, or raises standards.

As for the myth of "paralysis of analysis," the Tacoma Narrows bridge, Three Mile Island, the Challenger explosion, thalidomide, the collapse of the Hyatt Regency walkway, the failure of the South Fork Dam, etc., etc., were *not* caused by some "stubborn," "straight 'A' students" who were "full of themselves," just wanted to overanalyze the problem, and "be perfect all the time."  I'll betcha though there were a lot of "team players" involved who knew "when to settle" to get things done.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I think you guys are arguing way too much about perfectionism.

We all do as good as we can.  I gathered Husky's problem was not that he'd set his bar too high, but rather he'd set his bar as high as any of us ordinarily would, and doesn't have the guidance to reach it as a relatively new engineer due to the way his company has set itself up.





The first question we really need to know, is whether your boss is approachable about this situation.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East - http://www.campbellcivil.com

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

The mechanical guys can afford to spend hundreds of hours on a machine part that will be reproduced over and over again.

Structural and Civil engineers have to design each building bespoke.

They are very different situations.

There is no such thing as a perfect building, but they all still work. There are many things that will still work perfectly fine without being perfect.

The trick is to know what they are.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

approaching the OP from a different direction ... why do you think you're failing ?

the project being over budget is completely your fault.  sure maybe an experienced PE could beat up on the guys doing the work (my guess), but fresh out of school, you're fresh meat in a shark tank.

forms not getting filled out right ... no "real" problem as far as i can see, others are catching the corrections, and you're learning.

my biggest concern is what sort of technical over-sight is expected of you ?  fresh out of school, you'll only be learning how the real world works.  has someone else stamped the work and you're over-seeing the project ??  someone else is inspecting the work ??  (if they are, walk around with them, see what they're looking at).

the "sink or swim" model is designed i think to quickly see who can adapt to a Challenging situation, who can quickly gain experience "at the coal face" so they can move quickly up the ladder, and who can resolve problems by finding their own solutions, asking for help, and not "burying the bodies".

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

as a graduate you know nothing, if your boss does not know that then the fault is theirs.

As a fresh graduate the most that can be expected is that you dont make the same mistake twice. Use the opportunity to learn and grow, ask loads of questions before you get to the stage that you are expected to know it all.

Everyone makes mistakes but they tend to get smaller and more subtle with experience.

Good luck with the rest of your career and dont get disheartened. We have all been there.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Just to clarify, I wasn't specifically talking about analysis paralysis in my last post.  The things I find to divert my attention when overwhelmed by a task aren't necessarily analysis.

That said, there is such a thing as analysis paralysis but there's also such a thing as shooting from the hip and being way off mark.  Often times, erring on the side of slightly more analysis is better than just going with your first guess, especially if you're inexperienced.

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RE: New engineer feeling like failure

(OP)
beej67, my boss is always willing to answer questions. The thing is, I need to make some decisions myself. He knows I'm struggling with how bad the job is going (in my opinion anyway) and doesn't seem terribly concerned. I would say he's concerned about my well being and how the project is affecting me professionally. That's a big help.

The thing is, I don't even care about my own 'well being' as much as how this affects our company's rep with the state and the other municipality we're working in right now. I know I have to put in tough times when I'm starting out in the working world, but it sucks to put in all this effort to be making seemingly little progress.

rb1957, I'm 'running' the job I guess you could say. I'm in charge of inspection, quantities, plan clarifications, field adjustments, etc. The plan was stamped by a PE who has no involvement at this point.

Thanks everybody for all of the responses!

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

huskybuilder,

From what you are saying here, you sound like the kind of graduate that I would employ at the drop of a hat.

It is very easy to be enthusiastic and effective when everything is going right but, in my opinion, what makes a great engineer is how they handle it when things go wrong.

Jobs do go wrong even when you have done everything right.

I have worked with a number of engineers that were very capable but who had never had to work their way out of a problem like this, I am always concerned at how they would react when things did go wrong.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

(OP)
Hmm, I think I'm officially burned out. I feel done. I've had a constant headache the past two days, even on a Saturday morning when I should be able to sleep in and relax, I woke up at 3 AM thinking about work things. How do I approach management about this without seeming whiny?

I've been reading about employee burnout and one website listed about 15 criteria. Every single one applied to me. Is there a way to discuss this without jeopardizing my career?

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

There is nothing whiny about bringing this to your employers attention.  

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Well,  from what I can understand your main issue stands on your attitude.

Be sure that your boss really knows and understands the difficult situation of the project, surely is not the first time for him and for the company.
( projects running over budget especially in state contracts may be rather commonplace )

I don't believe that anybody should expect from you being fresh out of college to reach "perfection" - it is obvious you are trying hard and doing your best.

I would also propose :
- Have a friendly talk with your boss over a beer after work
- Don't hesitate to "share" your worries with coworkers (even subordinates), you will be surprised by how other people will understand  - don't think you are alone on that.
More generally speaking, "the sink or swim" method is regretfully followed by some companies especially in "hard" times....
 

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Would you like your job if you had the experience?  If so, you just do the best you can.  DO NOT BURN YOURSELF OUT WORKING THOSE HOURS!  If you have to do that then find another job.  

My first job out of school was a project manager job.  It sounded cool and payed well but it did not match my skill set. Exactly 1 year after sratring I went into the r&D design field and love it.  I felt much more at home and was able to contribute right away.

By the way, the first job, where I felt lost, offered me my job back should I decide to return.  I did not but I guess I was doing better than I had expected.  

Lots of good posts here about perfectionism, etc...  I would go to your employer and ask for a performance review and then decide if you need a career change.    

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

huskybuilder,

My turn!

As far as burnout, because I've been there plenty of times. The best answer I have is "get a hobby," but let me elaborate. You need to find some downtime and let yourself recharge. You are constantly emptying the tank, and never taking time to refill it. I have variously filled the need for fun with poker, cooking, the design and construction of medieval artillery, and women (as available). But the point is that you need to find something you can engage in because you want to FOR ITS OWN SAKE, that preferably involves no computers, and simply give your brain and (at the risk of sounding like a hippy) spirit to relax. If work is invading your sleep (SO been there) you are clearly overdosing and your brain's ablative armor is wearing away.

The next thing is that whatever else you do (and it MUST be something you enjoy for its own sake) it has to have time made for it, and that time must be inviolate. I understand, completely, the desire to more hours and energy in, because there is always more dirt in the mountain. Hell, I've even done the math in my head at how big an edge one accumulated hour per day over the life of the project will give. But you have to realize that the quality of time you're putting in is now being affected by poor maintenance of your internal psychological machinery.

This is part of the value of family - they force you to balance your life, because you have people whose needs have enough primacy in your mind to compete with work.

Last thing - on your project, get out your razor. My experience in life is that people will work with a guy who delivers late, over-budget successes. The guy who immaculately documents an on-time, under budget failure no one needs.  Figure out your conditions for success, and focus relentlessly on those. Everything else will be done if and only if it supports that goal. This should mean either shaving away a lot of tasks, or doing some marginal stuff here and there. The ability to say "not worth my time" and "not mission critical" is a HUGE key for engineer. There's a hundred things I can do better than other people in my company, but that's not what I'm hired for, and not where I'm needed. Not that I wouldn't be thrilled for you if your superhuman productivity got it all to happen perfectly - but then what will your next project be, and what will the expectations on you be? You want to do this for a few more years, I think. Your model needs to be sustainable.

Oh, and, in the future: start raising hell BEFORE you start the project at how bad it's going be.  

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

A star for you magneticdave - it must be your magnetic personality!

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Be careful of state paperwork sucking the life and profit from you and your company. You have to deal with these people and they have no problem requiring you to work for them instead of your company. I have seen government employees just suck the profits and time from a project when the contractor should tell them to screw off. They are payed by taxpayers and could care less. Just give them enough to get them off your company's back and concentrate on getting the job done at a quality rate and cost which will satisfy your company. They are giving you the OJT by immersion method. So you conquer and divide your problems. Learn stall tactics for government paperwork and do the Engineering and but protect your company bottom line and your reputation. Be thankful you have a job. I have 30 years experience but in another field and government employees are all the same.

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

Just remember, if you were doing THAT bad of a job, they'd have run you off by now.  

Heck, $100k over budget?  We do that in an afternoon...

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I've just read this whole thread just now, and it's very interesting. I'm 26 and have 6 years experience in 'engineering'. Only this past 18 months with an in-depth employer where I've really been pushed close to my limits, though.

Prior to this, I hadn't really failed anything before (except my driving test, but that's another story). So there are parallels to your situation.

The reason I'm posting is that I think I've become burnt out. Over summer I've been putting in excess hours, and eventually developed migraines which are basically out of my control. When they come on, that's it, time to stop work. Physically incapable of doing anything, let alone work.

But anyway, from the start at this job I've felt like I've been chucked in the deep end, and at the beginning I came close to going to see my boss to tell him that I thought I'd made a mistake in taking the job. Once or twice I'd made minor comments to him that I was feeling the pressure and struggling a bit, and he just remarked that it was my baptism of fire.

I had exactly the same kinds of feelings as you described though (of not being of value to the company through all my mistakes, of feeling like a 'pretender' in the role I'd been given, and of really struggling to produce anything that was 'right').

I made my old company a lot of money, and was very valuable to them, and then coming here all of a sudden felt I was a cost and wasn't pulling any money in. Which made me very anxious indeed. Some people don't even question their value though, in a business sense, and it is good that you are.

I think you'll come out of this just fine, providing you don't burn yourself out medically, and providing you don't throw in the towel.

I think only now (18 months in) am I beginning to become less anxious and more sure of myself. But I'm nowhere near as confident as I was in my old job. Having said that though, I must now be a few orders of magnitude a better engineer than I was. But far less confident. That's an odd paradox, isn't it?

We have very varied work in our consultancy, and almost every project I'm served is new to me. It's very disconcerting being expected to hold your own on something you know zero about, against someone on the phone telling you you're wrong. That definitely makes you feel like an imposter!!

It doesn't help if you've built up most of your identity on being brilliant in your work or education. I guess having that particular pillar kicked out from under you can leave you wandering around shell-shocked much of the time. It has me, anyhow, and I've almost burnt myself out working tirelessly to recover that reputation I lost on moving company.

I think it's coming back, though, and I'm sure yours will too, given what I can tell about you from your comments in this thread! :)

RE: New engineer feeling like failure

The more experienced you get, the more cautious you get. You take more things into account, and become more aware that received wisdom can lead you astray, and that a surprising proportion of the people you deal with are buffoons or liars.

Consequently, yes, as you become a better engineer you become less confident that any given design is right, but more justifiably confident that it is the best that could be done in the circumstances. We don't live in a perfect world, a timely, good design that more or less meets budget is probably an aspiration than a regularly achieved state for many of us.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock


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RE: New engineer feeling like failure

I have to say that I am a very young engineer (I work in manufacturing), but I learned very quickly that customers want everything fast/cheap/right and no mater what you deliver, they will want more.  I keep a sign hanging in my office with fast/cheap/right inside of a triangle, and below it, it says "Pick any two".   

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