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Usefull copyright material on line
2

Usefull copyright material on line

Usefull copyright material on line

(OP)
I just came across virtually all the ASME Y14 series stds posted on line.  Also the global DRM.

Now I'm pretty sure this isn't' meant to be freely available to anyone with an internet connection for no charge.

I already forwarded a link to the site to ASME if they want to take action.

Also, as much as I'd like to I'm resisting the urge to save or print a copy of it (at least the ones I don't more or less legitimately have).

I'm also resisting the urge to share the website with others that may find it useful.

Am I just being too darn ethical for my own good here?  Most here normally take the high road - at least on this forum, am I for once living up to this?

Posting guidelines FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm? (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Kenat...I've been reading your posts for a long time.  For all your jocularity, bluster and BS; doing the right thing is not foreign to you.  Way to go.

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Good for you Kenat.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
www.infotechpr.net

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

I download such standards all the time. But they maintain a short residency on my computer.

I happen to be a young engineer just starting out and it often tends to be difficult to tell if th standard has the information I need or not. Since technical book stores are a thing of the past, this tends to be a good way to preview the merchandise before I buy it.

Over the past 6 months I have easily purchased approximatley $5000 worth of standards. Approximatley half of which I previewed before purchase.

Once I'm sure the standard has what I need I have no problem paying for them and deleting the pirate copy (I like the bound hardcopy and the simplicity of document control that goes with it).

You have indeed done the ethical thing, however your move is an excersise in futility, due the foriegn repositories of all engineering standards readily found online.

A question properly stated is a problem half solved.

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!  

http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

I would also like to note that those who use copywrited information downloaded from the internet are taking an awfull risk.

There is no garuntee that the files have not been tampered with by the unscrupulous (another very good reason I like bound harcopy's direct from the publisher)  

A question properly stated is a problem half solved.

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!  

http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Kenat,
Sounds like your being ethical (on the high road), however I wouldn't worry about forwarding the sites to anyone else, if they wanted them and knew anything about searching the net they could find it off their own steam.

I think you would be forgiven for taking a copy yourself, while it would be unethical, truth of the matter is that I can't hold it against you, as I know I have at least one burnt copy of DVD, and so dose half the world. However if you were to use this new found source of info for more than personal use but to gain a commercial advantage, well that is a different ball game.  

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Kenat,

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

<ducking and running>

Have a good weekend.

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

I wonder if anyone who owns copyright on material would be tempted to load corrupted copies onto pirate sites so anyone trying to steal their property will regret it. I suspect they may.

Even if we think we are justified in stealing copyright (I feel Microsoft still owes me for products that failed to deliver) still should not promote that idea here as it is illegal and brings this site into disrepute and undermines us if we complain about others stealing our copyright.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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for site rules
 

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Uploading an intentionally corrupted or incorrect copy by the author or owner would be as egregious as downloading an unlawful copy of the copyrighted document.

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Actually, I think it's worse.  If someone got hurt and the corrupted standard was the source....

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Does that mean if someone owning copyright is going to corrupt the data, they should make the standard higher.

I know it is wrong, but there still seems to be some poetic justice in setting up a thief in that way.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Pat,

I get your point, but how poetic is it to the people killed through no fault of their own but being unlucky enough to walk into a building designed by a thief?

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Pat's point and that of ColonelSanders83:

Some original maps have deliberate faults such as an extra road included where there is none. It helps the owners identify fraudulent use of their maps by people too lazy to do their own surveys.
The addition of false roads, a cul de sac somewhere in a housing estate for example, is relatively harmless since no one will be looking for something that isn't there. The lazy ones have no idea which roads are real or not and include them all.

That won't work here because the site is offering the original material and not alternatives which would have no value.
But I assume that such organisations must be alert to piracy and must have some mechanisms to protect themselves. Sadly, there are not enough Kenat's around for that to be sufficient by itself, there will always be those who will happily use pirated material.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Pat,

If they did put out a falsified document, it would be widely distributed not to a single individual but to a great many and would soon challenge the distribution of the legitimate standard.  Most people don't pay for standards (regardless of ethics)- never have.  Let's keep the discussion within the realm of reality.

Even if you go into the large OEMs of automobiles, aircraft, etc. you will find that they all use each others documents.  You will also notice that each OEMs methods and notation closely matches that of the competition.  As a result, products are safer and the public good is served.  I'm not saying that their actions are entirely ethical, but that's how the western world works.

There is a certain naivete in this thread.  The truth is that copyright laws often work against the greater good of society.

Pragmatically, what is required is reform of these national organizations.  Instead of charging fees they don't need, make the information publicly available for the greater good of society and eliminate barriers for small business.  A public-private partnership should be explored to truly democratize these organizations.

In their current form, they represent a market failure!

Wouldn't working towards putting the information in the hands of the people be the truly ethical action?  After all, the experts put their time and effort towards these standards in the spirit of industry wide cooperation.

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Every organisation I ever worked for will buy standards when they need one.

They will make copies so that several individuals within that organisation can work together on the same project.

They will also copy portions to send to suppliers if the supplier has to meet a standard.

I think this all comes under the heading of fair use, or fairly close to it.

Downloading the entire document without ever having purchased an original is piracy and cannot be condoned here in a public forum.

I have been around quite a while and worked for quite a few companies and even served on a few standards committees.

I think my experience in this regard is pretty normal so it is far from naive to expect it happens like that.

Regards
Pat
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RE: Usefull copyright material on line

I do agree that standards should be produced by committees based on volunteers from several sectors and should be administered and published by a publicly funded organisation and should be freely available, but the facts are, this is not how it is.  

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
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RE: Usefull copyright material on line

In my last company the engineering department was responsible for the maintenance of standards.
They kept a register and operated like a library with anyone who needed the standard signing out a copy and singing it back in.
If anyone needed a copy already out then they would chase it up but some people ended up with the standard on almost permanent "loan" from engineering resources.
Of course people would take first generation copies but not for distribution.
I got choked off pretty severely when I asked for a photocopy because the original was out somewhere. Now you may argue that your organisation has paid for the knowledge not a particular copy and therefore internal copying is OK. In the end the only true guidance is that given by the standard and the terms and conditions of purchase.

On the other hand, many standards have a limited recommended life and are frequently revised so new copies do have to be purchased every four-five years or so, in theory.
The reasons for new issues isn't simply revenue generation and the changes are rarely just for the sake of it.
But, the production of a standard costs money. It should be paid for else we may find a diminishing number of organisations paying the costs for trivial updates and a for standards that no longer can be maintained current or valuable.

In the end you get what you pay for.
If you want standards that have value then they have to be paid for.
Photocopies are convenient and we can always justify making a copy for expediency but I bet few people destroy the copy when done. Though in a few years it will be out of date anyway.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

I am a small business owner.  One of my costs of doing business is the purchase of codes and standards.  I BUY the ones I need.  I am also a published author.  I derive income from some of my published items.  When those items are ill-gotten, I lose money.  That takes away from the income I have for my family.  My time is valuable to me and to my family.  When I waste my time to prepare something that is then stolen by whatever means on the internet, then I have been wronged.  It is the same with standards producing organizations such as ASTM, ACI, ICC and others.

Yes, codes and standards can be expensive to purchase.  I don't always buy the most recent standard because frankly, I just can't afford to buy every one of them; however, when I reference a standard, I will state the one I am referencing (that is paid for and legitimate).  I do the same with software.  All software used on my computers is legitimately purchased and has appropriate authorization.  I expect that of those who read my drivel and pay for it...it would be disengenuous of me to do otherwise for others.  

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Copyright can be violated in a, technically speaking, legal way, by receiving or sending a small (which is legal) part of the whole copyrighted work. That is what torrent sites do.

As far as I know, the problem torrent-vs-copyright is not resolved yet, at least in Europe.  

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Pat is right I shouldn't have suggested that downloading a standard free is somehow forgivable on a public forum. Seems I have a bit of the devil in me, time to go burn that DVD.

On the commercial level there are companies that down load standards for free. It is this crazy situation that someone how came about due to the uni's access to all standards for a small fee per year. So you can log on and download and print the standards if you are a member of the uni, which a lot of employed people are these days.

Ron,
I am sure it is all good drivel.
 

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

As a civil engineer, we reference ASTM standards frequently in specifications.
My last employer, a fairly large (5,000 person) firm, refused to purchase the standards for our use.
Consequently, it was sometimes difficult to check construction phase submittals.  Although I never sealed any specs at that company, it would have made me nervous to be sealing something that referred to a standard I had never read.

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

I'd report the site, but I think I could find it within my soul, in the meantime, to take a look at the illegal copy to see if that's what I wanted to buy.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

Copyright can definitely work against the public good, but so can piracy.

Let's take as an example the system of scientific journal publication.  Scientists, mostly academics and other people whose salaries are paid principally by the taxpayer, generate new knowledge and research and then write a paper.  They submit it to their peers, also paid from the public purse, who act as reviewers and referees.  The work is then published, and the copyright goes to whom?  The PUBLISHING COMPANY!  Who subscribes to the journals?  Principally libraries, funded from the public purse!  If an academic requires copies of their own published work to facilitate teaching, the public has to pay the publishing company for the reprints.  The net result is a flow of money from the public purse to the publishing company, in return for more restrictive access to the information which the public has already paid for!  It's a system which made sense in the days when the physical journal volumes in a library were essential because they were the only game in town, but in the internet age such a system makes no sense.

I agree that standards such as building codes, the ASME pipe and pressure vessel codes, ASTM materials standards etc., which have the force of law because they protect the public safety, should be paid for out of the public purse.  Otherwise, only the ethical pay for them, while access to information necessary for public protection is less widely dispersed than it could or should be.

While the public purse does NOT pay for the publishing of these standards, their copyright needs to be respected.  If it isn't, the organizations which fund their ongoing maintenance and development will be deprived of the funds they need to ensure that this critical work is done.  This, despite the fact that a large fraction of the work of actually developing these standards is done by volunteers...

RE: Usefull copyright material on line

"Well it wasn't intended as back patting, more to spark a discussion on the general topic. "

Kenat, rereading what I posted, I almost feel like I should redflag it.  Hopefully everyone will read it knowing the author had tongue firmly in cheek, and the intended sentiment was more along the lines of "good on ya".  I too don't like paying for standards that seem to get revised for trivial reasons, but that discussion has been held elsewhere, and the overwhelming opinion of smarter people than me is that the revisions are generally not trivial.

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