How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
(OP)
I have a year left in my Materials Engineering PhD program. Recently, I started looking for a job after graduation. Fundamental research doesn't appeal to me; I would rather be doing design and development type work or materials support jobs such as failure analysis. I had 2+ years of experience in industry before going back to graduate school, and that's the place I would rather be.
I talked to a recruiter the other day, and he said that my graduate schoolwork wouldn't count towards experience for a job unless it's in research. He said I was slightly above entry level. To me that was bogus. Many things that I do in graduate school are industry relevant such as FEA work, mechanical testing, failure analysis, and instrument operation/repair. Heck I've even did some NDT type work briefly. I work 100x harder in graduate school than I ever did in industry, and with no one looking over my shoulder telling me to work faster. Aren't the transferable skills that are learned in graduate school important?
Generally, how do companies view graduate school experience? Thanks for any input.
Uconnmaterials
I talked to a recruiter the other day, and he said that my graduate schoolwork wouldn't count towards experience for a job unless it's in research. He said I was slightly above entry level. To me that was bogus. Many things that I do in graduate school are industry relevant such as FEA work, mechanical testing, failure analysis, and instrument operation/repair. Heck I've even did some NDT type work briefly. I work 100x harder in graduate school than I ever did in industry, and with no one looking over my shoulder telling me to work faster. Aren't the transferable skills that are learned in graduate school important?
Generally, how do companies view graduate school experience? Thanks for any input.
Uconnmaterials





RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
If I saw your resume submitted for an entry-level, journeyman engineer's position, I might wonder how long it'll be before you get bored and start looking for a new job and therefore, I might not even bother to interview you.
TTFN
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RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
If I was looking for a mid-career engineer I'd throw your resume in the trash. I got my Masters (night school) when I had 13 years experience and my employer treated the graduate degree as a plus. I've seen a bunch of people with an entry-level Masters that couldn't get an interview.
The nonsense about how hard you worked in grad school will not play well in the job market. Employers tend to think that people go to grad school to satisfy some internal need of their own. Complaining about how hard it is plays much like complaining how much you sweat during sex--if you didn't like it you wouldn't do it.
David
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I was just making a point that full-time graduate school isn't easy (as some people might think), and helps develops a good work ethic since you don't have a supervisor looking over your shoulder. In no way was I complaining because that doesn't change anything.
IRstuff,
I know that there are PhD engineers who don't do research. I'm sure that's not common. The ones that I talked to seemed happy. I'm not sure how much more they get paid above an MS, but it isn't so much that a company won't hire them.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
There is a big difference between academia experience Vs industry experience. In academia, your work will really affect you and how you will progress. If you fail, only you will receive a fail and not too much is lost from the university. In industry, your work will affect the company and how the company will progress. If we fail, the board and customers will loose faith and the company may loose business. You will have to understand that the manager is looking for how you have benefited a company on making more money for the company not on how you did things to benefit yourself.
"Many things that I do in graduate school are industry relevant such as FEA work, mechanical testing, failure analysis, and instrument operation/repair. Heck I've even did some NDT type work briefly. I work 100x harder in graduate school than I ever did in industry, and with no one looking over my shoulder telling me to work faster."
All you have really showed was that you benefited by doing this to get your PhD, but you did not show how using these skills to make money for a company, two different experiences. If a hiring manager had to pick between a PhD with academia experience and a Masters who has industry experience, I'm sure he will pick the person with the masters with industry experience.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
So, if it's in something relevant, it's highly valued round here, though more so in the more 'research' than 'design' roles.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
The difference between academia and industry is that the nature of the work need not be useful in academia. Fortunately, Materials Engineering is very useful for industry. I'm developing surface-alloys for improved tribological properties, which will likely be a patent if everything goes right. How is that not useful? Also, a PhD student learns transferable skills, which would make him a very good engineer for a company.
In addition, the definitions of failure in graduate school and industry are different. However, a successful person will be able to succeed in either area if his mind is in the right place.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
The PHD folks tend to be weaker in some of the more 'practical'/applied aspects of things. I'm not gonna say it's universal and I'm trying not to be anti intellectual but it seems to be a bit of a trend.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
This is not a simple quantifiable question. You have to realize this is not a place to justify doing graduate work or not.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I don't pretend to know how the mind of a HR person works. My original question asks if work done as a graduate student counts as work experience if a PhD didn't want to go into research. In my case, I believe it should since I'm doing more industry relevant work rather than pure science. The techniques/skills I use in academia are the same as I would use in industry if I were a materials engineer.
I understand your sentiment towards PhDs. The notion that PhDs don't have practical knowledge is a stereotype, but I understand it. This may be true for theoretical physicists or computationalists, but to be a good experimentalist you need "practical skills".
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I'm sure experiences vary widely, but in my case, practically none of my master's work was directly useful for my employment. The main thing it accomplished was that a lot of material in the undergraduate programs, I knew real well instead of having a marginal grip on it.
There is an old saying that you you learn more and more about less and less until you become an expert and know everything about nothing. This is one of the problems with a PhD in general engineering work where it isn't required. You have a lot of very specific knowledge and experience and can easily wind up in a position where it is of little or no use.
How some of this plays out, for example, is that your employer won't ask, "Do you know anything about FEA?" They'll ask, "Do you have experience with the Acme FEA program?" And if you don't, it doesn't really matter what you did use or how much you know about it, because he's got a stack of resumes from guys that sat there and used it 8 hours a day for months on end. While you're developing surface alloys for improved tribological properties, your prospective employer will ask "So what do you know about cast iron?"
You're doing well to start looking now. You may in fact find high-tech openings that are just perfect for you, but don't be too surprised if that is not the case as well. You mentioned failure analysis; in connection with that, looking into consulting companies that do that kind of work. Look into getting your PE as soon as possible as well. Generally, you need 4 years experience, but you may be able to count some of your graduate work towards that- check your state rules and see.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
That's what I mean when I mentioned being weaker in some of the more practical/applied aspects.
Now of course, with the right team of more applied engineers, drafters, technicians, project managers etc. around them this isn't an issue. They are freed up from the mundane stuff to do relatively blue sky's thinking, complex analysis etc.
However, given that you mention wanting to be more in development than research, it may be more of an issue for you.
Many govt or large company jobs allow you to substitute PHD for a few years of experience in the job description. Doesn't necessarily mean the person actually looking at the resumes that get through the HR filter actually want a PHD though.
As I tried to imply from my first post, hi tech industries are more likely to value a PHD from what I've seen.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Thanks for the input. I am considering getting my PE. Hopefully my graduate experience counts; my adviser who is also a PE thinks it should, but I have to check CT state regulations.
It's interesting though that employers want a specific type of knowledge. For instance consider FEA software, I know Ansys and Abaqus. Who is to say I couldn't learn Nastran/Patran in a timely fashion. One of the most important things I've ever learned in graduate school is how to learn on my own. I would hope that employers would want to challenge their employees to learn new things, but I guess that a separate issue.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
This is sometimes true for a proven current employee, or at least many play lip service to the idea at least.
However, especially in the current tight market, they'd probably rather hire someone with all the immediately required skills.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I once paid for two people to learn ARCView (3 weeks at the publisher's place) 6 months before they needed to start a big GIS project for me. When the project came around, one was doing GIS in another state (same company, different group) the other couldn't remember a damned thing they had learned. My "foresight" cost me dearly on that project. Never did it again.
David
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
PhDs earned less than MEngs earned less than Bengs, which considering the disparity of starting ages was quite significant.
I vaguely remember that the line has flattened out now.
Rather than blathering on about how things should be, it might be worth thinking about why things are the way they are. Why don't most engineering industries value engineers who have been at uni for 8 years more than engineers who have been at uni for 4 years?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
When an entry level engineer comes through the door the assumption is that he is going to be worse than worthless until he learns how to do his job, and that that learning period is going to: (1) be 2-3 years; and (2) suck up a bunch of the time of valuable engineers mentoring and training him. Then the further liability is that most of them will leave your company in 3-4 years (just about the the time they are starting to contribute so their net contribution is significantly negative).
If you throw MS's and PhD's into that mix it is even worse since the people with advanced degrees and no relevant experience are several times more likely to walk after 3-5 years than BS's are. An MS with over 7 years relevant experience is generally a useful contributor. A PhD with 10 years relevant experience is generally a useful contributor. People with advanced degrees but less relevant experience are generally marking time till they can profitably jump ship. None of this is true for everyone, generalizations never are universally applicable, but it is true often enough to be reflected in salary surveys.
David
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
You could probably work in the power industry, especially once nuclear comes back full steam. You could do failure analysis, QA, testing, specification writing, etc. You kind of need a PhD to deal with all the different metals and processes we use.
Anyway you really need to stop being so defensive. The truth is that PhDs can be difficult to work with. The guy that sits next to me for example - he just refuses to be practical. He latches on to lofty ideals and won't listen to reason. Yes it's a stereotype, but he's the only PhD around here so we are all a bit prejudiced now. But you can certainly be a welcome exception to the rule. Be humble and realize that you have much to learn from more experienced engineers.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
There is a difference between stereotypes against someone that has a PhD and outright prejudices and negativity towards someone with a PhD.
It is not hard to see that a lot of the engineers without a PhD feel inferior in some form or another so they have to reduce them selves to this kind of negativity.
..... typical humans......
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Still a bit week on the documentation side - and I don't just mean his drawing skills - and transition to production aspects but no worse than some around here who I don't think have PHD's.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Back a number of years ago, I interviewed with a company in Colorado Springs. There were two aerospace companies there. Each was looking for employees with experience in their particular specialty. And of course, the only place to get them was the other company across town. And neither company was willing to spend one nickel to bring anyone new into the industry. So they were complaining to Congress about the lack of qualified workers, but weren't willing to do anything to change it, either. Now, that doesn't make good business sense, but that kind of stuff goes on.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Not inferior - just humble. What we engineers do can be so complicated, we should always be open to the possibility that we may have made a mistake. Very sorry for generalizing.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I failed to mention that it goes both ways. I know personally some uni. profs. that are quite the opposite. They think that they rule the universe with some kind of godly power. lol.
Generally, I think that no matter what background we have, we should learn to work together utilizing each others strengths without prejudices.
Unfortunately, this is not really the way the world works as others kind-of pointed out.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
This is probably a correct viewpoint. Not necessarily directly applicable to your specific situation, when I was in graduate school full time for my MS in Met Engineering, I felt that I could work any job. When I started in the Power Generation business many years ago after the first week on the job I realized how much I didn't know. However, I do credit my advanced degree with enabling me to think and work independently as I had to do my own research for my MS thesis.
Probably true for most engineering jobs. Where you gain the edge is the ability to learn quickly, and future opportunities after you gain valuable OJT with an advanced degree.
You want me to play the violin for you?
Yes.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Unfortunately, it also means his (and others') ignorance may be a barrier. You will need to cultivate relationships with individual recruiters and take the time to for them to get to know you and your skills. If you can, find recruiters that are working with hiring managers, not just HR departments.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I guess your "contrary to the opinion above" was directed at me. I gotta say that any company that doesn't ask "how does this expenditure contribute to profitiblity?" doesn't stand much chance to stay profitable. I guess it is really easy to shout "Enron" "Dilbert", but the truth is a lot more complex. I absolutely stand behind the comment that "I would hope that employers would want to challenge their employees to learn new things" .
David
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I can't imagine spending two or more years in school and finding absolutely nothing in that time to be relevant to what one does later in life. To a life-long learner, every experience offers "transferrable skills", even if those are limited to "don't do that again!". But that is VERY different than saying that your education was essential to getting a particular job, or to obtaining higher than average compensation for a particular job.
We view a PhD as a risk factor more than a benefit when it shows up on a candidate's resume. In terms of pay for a fresh PhD grad, we'd give half credit for years spent in grad school since Bachelors grad versus years spent doing relevant work in industry. Our review of the industry stats tell us that we're not far off the mark in that assessment. I guess that tells you which we value more.
If you can find that narrow field to which your PhD work directly applies, you may achieve a very high level of success, compensation and satisfaction in that field. But narrowly-focused people have to be very willing to move from place to place and indeed even from nation to nation to find work.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Why would a PhD be a risk factor? I can understand the attitude that PhDs are more likely to jump ship if they are in a role they are deemed overqualified for. However, isn't this a trend for young engineers even with a BS or MS? It is quite common that young engineers only to stay at their jobs for 2-3 years (or less) before leaving. Many factors influence whether an employee leaves a job not just education. The biggest factor, in my opinion, is whether they have a family or not. Employees with families are more likely to stay with a company.
At this time, I'm not only looking for a position that is related to my dissertation. I'm using ion beams to alloy Fe-based surfaces (and the near-surface region). This is an expensive technology so jobs in this area a few except in the semiconductor industry. At any rate, most PhDs that I talked to in industry are doing work unrelated to their dissertation. My adviser (who was also in industry) says that is common.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
In my experience, a large percentage of people in FA in the semiconductor or photovoltaics industry has a PhD.
Of course, semiconductor, photovoltaics, or other high tech industries have a larger percentage of PhD in most departments. I work with a thin film solar company that has ~50% PhDs in their process development group as well.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
> find a job that fits anyone's dissertation
> find someone that is still doing the same thing he started doing 10 years earlier.
The only jobs like that are academic, for the most part.
The reason PhDs are a risk, as are any other highly specialized discipline is precisely because of the specialization. We have had problems retaining good servo system designers, and other disciplines, because we do maybe one new servo design every 2-3 yrs. The rest of the time is spent rehashing old designs or helping production with production problems. A new BS is cheaper to start with, so his replacement cost is lower, and there is less invested intellectual property as well, both in terms of what the new engineer is working on, and what he takes away.
A PhD comes with a cache of intellectual property and would not be hired unless there were some critical need for his expertise. That means that when he leaves, he takes the large chunk of IP that he brought with him, and he'd leave a big hole in whatever project he was working on.
I'm puzzled as to why this thread has gone on so long with the same "I want credit for my academic years" responded with "You're probably not going to get any" theme.
It is what it is, and it's time to get over it and move on. Complaining to us is not going to help.
TTFN
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RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I'm not complaining. My original question was why some companies may disregard graduate school experience when looking to hire an engineer. In my view, it doesn't make sense because the materials engineering stuff I do in academia is similar to what I would be doing in industry.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Aside from the obvious flight risk, we've had other bad luck with PhDs at our firm, including a tendency toward analysis-paralysis (the inability to accomplish anything because they're not finished studying it yet), and a poorer response to mentorship and direction.
Obviously these are normative tendencies and do not apply to every single person who has a PhD. We don't throw the PhDs' resumes in the trash automatically- we interview and make our own assessment.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
"analysis-paralysis" I have to remember that.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Anyone with a research oriented degree knows this!
Maybe hiring overqualified engineers for a job that any 'C' student (which knows almost nothing) can do... should be reconsidered.
This may lead to less tendency towards inferiority complex....to engineers that have higher degrees. This should not be the case, but will always be.
Remember that if it were not for pure research engineers (ie. PhD's) we would not progress at all with technological advancements and you CAD designer would draw bugs bunny at work.......
Accept it or not, it is true.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Or, alternatively, we could call that type of thinking for the rank arrogant pretentious Bull $hit it clearly is.
Just thinking of my options here.
Then again, I guess I'm one of those C students who knows nothing and should be doodling WB cartoon rabbits.
We have some smart PHD's around here. We also have some very smart folks without PHD's who are on a par with them. The PHD's sometimes come and ask me questions about my area of "expertize", probably more often than I ask them questions about theirs. I don't think this makes me smarter than them. Just indicates to me it takes a mix of talents, education, skilss etc. to get it done.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
The end 'par none' is that fact that those 'with' will be arrogant towards those 'without'...and those 'without' will be equally arrogant towards those 'with'.
I know it's sad. But few accept this.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
My opinion was always that no-one should be judged based on their background. But "thrash" and be equally "thrashed" back at. End of story.
Kenat, I apologize if I offended you, I know you never 'thrashed'.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Yea? I'm pretty sure that there are people who progressed science without PhDs... Edison comes to mind.
I worked in a few companies with a lot of PhDs, and unfortunately, the nickname the were often given was PhD (pretty huge dolt).
I have worked with PhDs who were geniuses, and those that I'm not sure could tie there shoes given a small distraction. It comes down to the individual.
V
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Some of the biggest advancements in computers were developed by college drop-outs.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
UConnMaterials,
You asked how graduate school experience is viewed vs industry experience. I think you have your answer, that quite clearly a significant portion of our survey pool (this forum) is of the opinion that X years of graduate school experience do not necessarily equate to X years of industry experience. Rightly or wrongly, there are clearly some who feel PhDs (or, perhaps more precisely, those who choose to pursue a PhD) can be at times more difficult to work with.
But this is a generality, and good engineers know generalities only go so far. So I don't think you need to worry. If you are a hard working, productive, easy to work with person (I have no reason to believe you are not), you will be judged on those characteristics.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
What the recruiter said was over-generalization and BS. Having an advanced degree is not a deterent nor does it narrow the career options if an Employer will benefit from it. For example, in the field of fracture mechanics and failure analysis, having a PhD next to your name gives you instant credibility with a jury, and this is certainly not classified as research? It is an actual industry need in which many PhD Materials experts are enjoying lucrative careers.
If I had an opening for a Materials Engineer, I'd bring you in for an interview. PhD or lower degree gives you the credentials for job qualification. What you learn and do for the Employer after you are hired is what makes your career.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
OP, keep your hips high.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I might take issue with your comment that a year in grad school is worth at least a year in industry, implying that it might well be worth more than industrial experience. It is for some people, for some positions. It is not for others.
A year is what you make out of it.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Perfect....just perfect.
Fe
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
I can see the argument against someone growing nanoparticles for his research applying for a job doing failure analysis or alloy development; however, there is still research in academia on conventional materials.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Find that magical job that suits and makes use of your specialty- after all, that's why you went to grad school. That will give you the best chance of being paid something which makes the degree pay off for you in economic terms. Settle for a job for which Bachelors degree holders are also being considered and you're going to get less credit for that degree because it isn't necessary to the work at hand. It may be, in fact, POORER preparation for that job than an equivalent number of years in related industrial practice.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
This is the answer to your question in a nutshell. Managers are cheap, they won't pay you a PhD salary if they have a stack of resumes from folks with a BS who are willing to work for 10K a year less. They also know that if they do hire you for that job, you will most likely be spending your time looking for something better.
As far as academic vs industry experience, I don't think there is a big difference. Regardless of where you got it, your experience only matters if a potential employer is looking for it.
I have an advanced degree, and with nearly 20 years industry experience, I would consider myself an expert in the field of structural dynamics. About four years ago I hit a low point with my job. I was so desperate to get the f--- out of there that I applied for any and every job with the title "Mechanical Engineer". I had interviewed for a position as a Senior Design Engineer at a small company. Right away I got the impression that this particualr job was pretty low-tech and before the interview was over, I made up my mind that I wasn't really interested. Well it turns out I did not get the job anyway. The hiring manager explained to me that he felt I lacked the relevant experience and that he felt there would be too much "hand holding" as he put it, to get me up to speed. This is the reality of it. Companies want turn-key employees, and years of experience are largely discounted if they are not deemed directly relevant to the job at hand. If you seek out jobs that are a match to your skill set, you will be more satisfied and better compensated financially. If you insist on trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, you will face nothing but repeated failure and frustration. It's not a matter of how the world SHOULD work, this is the reality of how it does work.
RE: How Relevant is Graduate School Experience for a Position in Industry?
Case study - I was a sr design engr in jet engines, and a new grad with masters in fracture mechanics joined me on his initial assignment. I made use of his expertise in this technology and added it to the design for welded structures with defects. It got the attention of a lot of important people including the USAF. A lot of boats rose with this tide.
It's important to get your masters in the latest technology to make it marketable and rewarding.