Angle Measurement
Angle Measurement
(OP)
Are there any design guidelines for the quantification of an angle of rotation for a concrete pole foundation buried in soil, acting as a pole footing for a steel structure above?
I have a cantilever structure to design where the lateral deflection has to be carefully controlled, and need to put a finger on the degree of base rotation needed to develop the lateral soil pressure used.
The height of the structure above soil is 31 feet, and the depth of burial is 9 to 10 feet for a 24" diameter drilled foundation.
I have a cantilever structure to design where the lateral deflection has to be carefully controlled, and need to put a finger on the degree of base rotation needed to develop the lateral soil pressure used.
The height of the structure above soil is 31 feet, and the depth of burial is 9 to 10 feet for a 24" diameter drilled foundation.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask






RE: Angle Measurement
Dik
RE: Angle Measurement
I need to know the rotation that the foundation will have to rotate to generate the design passive pressure for the pole footing. For every degree that the foundation rotates out of plumb, the tip of the pole moves by .54", in addition to the deflection of the pole structure above. I need to limit the sum of the two within certain guidelines.
To limit it, I may need to go with a greater diameter, or greater depth of footing.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
the structure you are describing really has me wondering what it actually is?
You describe a flag pole type column, but it sounds like it is part of a frame.
I am eagerly awaiting some answers to this!
I have had similar concerns in the past.
RE: Angle Measurement
If you knew the pivot point of the pole foundation (seems to be many approaches to pole foundation design) and could assign some spring constant to the soil then rotating the footing some angle should yield a distance the spring would be compressed at any point and give you a passive pressure, no?
RE: Angle Measurement
BA
RE: Angle Measurement
The simplified formula's in this book for a non-constrained pole type footing are based on a detailed review paper by M.T. Davisson and Shamsher Prakash. Perhaps if you can track down this paper, more detailed info than the simplified info I am providing may be available.
The simplified formula in the book (based on UBC) allows the UBC tabulated allowable lateral soil pressures to be doubled, IF the structure is not adversely affected by a 0.5 inch lateral motion at ground level. To me, this value provides an upper limit for the lateral deflection if using their formula. I have never doubled the allowable values so have assumed lateral deflections less than 0.5". They also assume the pole rotates around a point at approximately 2/3 the footing depth. A 0.5" lateral deflection a ground level for a 9'6" deep footing is approx. 0.38 degrees rotation.
RE: Angle Measurement
It is basically a two pole sign structure, without the signage, and very limited in motion. It is for the FAA. Sorry, but that is the limit of what I can say at this point...
Skiis:
I am aware of the UBC 2X increase and associated deflection, but need to get the equations to justify as the deflections are functionally critical. Cannot be a wave of the hand.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
A 0.5" deflection at the ground level over a 9' pole depth, rotating at the 2/3 point of embedment (6') translates into a 31'/6' = 3.2" deflection at the tip of the poles. This is not tolerable for the project. I have not doubled the soil pressure values, so figure 1.6", a little more than the current deflection of the steel poles. I think I will have to do something more to limit the soil-related deflection, as mentioned, by increasing the diameter and lowering the depth.
I may also have to consider adding a concrete grade lateral bearing beam between the poles to limit the deflection further.
Fattdad... , BigH..., Any input?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
Could you place the concrete footing with wick drains (if needed based on soil type) under the footing. Then place a surcharge load on the footing for some period of time. Then remove the surcharge load and put up the pole.
This method would compress the soil and develope the passive soil strength, which would help to limit any movement.
But, based on construction limitations, this may not be feasible.
RE: Angle Measurement
what sort of load is causing the pole to deflect 0.5" at ground level ? Your analysis looks like enforced displacement, without any bending of the pole. if you made the embedment a bigger diameter (or deeper) it'd be more rigid (but that would help an enforced deflection. if you supported the embedment with something stiffer than the existing soil (packed gravel ?, i don't know) that also wouldn't help an enforced displacement.
how about guy wires ?
RE: Angle Measurement
I have done substation structures similar to what you are describing, I think.
I looked into using two cantilevered poles and did not like the foundations I was coming up with. I instead went with an "A" frame structure on spread footings. Any chance this can work?
RE: Angle Measurement
Dik
RE: Angle Measurement
If you don't have this software, a local Geotech Engineer should have it and if you provide him with the boring logs and design forces, can likely give you the output.
How does running a grade beam between the caissons help with deflection? Worst case deflection would be in the opposite direction (out of plane from the sign).
What about doing a 2-pile cap with straight or battered piles? Connected with a grade beam between to brace weak-axis? Forces would resolve into tension/compression and a Geotech can provide anticipated pile movements
RE: Angle Measurement
I don't have a soil log yet, but will have to demand one after considering this. I seriously doubt that the soil is uniform, but I'll see. Thanks for the offer. I'll let you know the results.
Den32:
I'll see if I can get ahold of Lpile. FYI, the major load is wind transverse to the two steel poles. The .5" deflection at the top is based on the note in the old UBC's allowing doubling of the allowable lateral soil pressures if the deflection of 0.5" can be tolerated. That is based, apparently, on the reference Toad mentioned. It is not in the IBC to my knowledge.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
From IBC 2009
Section 1806.3.4 Increase for Poles
"Isolated pole for uses such as flagpoles or signs and poles used to support buildings that are not adversely affected by 1/2" motion at the ground surface dude to short-term lateral loads shall be permitted to be designed using lateral bearing pressures equal to two times the tabular values"
Tabular values in this case being those in table 1806.2 of the 2009 Code "Presumptive Load-Bearing Values"
RE: Angle Measurement
dude = due
RE: Angle Measurement
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
RE: Angle Measurement
You said conc. filled drilled piers about 9 or 10' into the ground. With the soil conditions unknown and still suspect at the surface unless you do something to be sure that no body tampers with the soil around the piers. Maybe your grade beam btwn. piers to improve soil pressure area, or a slab on grade to confine soil at the tops of the piers. You need lateral reactions near the top of the piers to limit their lateral movement, or deflection about the soil reaction point about 6' below the surface. What would happen if you ran two screw or auger anchors or grouted anchors, at about 45°, down from the tops of the two piers, so you could post tension them after the piers were cast. Much as you might tie back temporary lagging and whalers for a deep found. excavation. This might eliminate some of the beam on elastic found. and soil properties uncertainties.
RE: Angle Measurement
I am fairly close to an existing building, so I will have to check the foundation drawings for that structure to see if that is possible. Screw pile might work as batter pile better than driven here due to the location. Only drawback would be the limitation of contractors in the area that can do this.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
Thanks for all the help guys.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
RE: Angle Measurement
I've used LPile a few times for similar foundations. Without even knowing your loads my gut tells me you'll need more than 2' x 9' to limit deflections. And at some depth it becomes a function of the stiffness of your pile. And as noted by you and others, providing a larger lateral bearing area at the top (like a pile cap or similar) can greatly reduce your deflections.
As you know, you're going to need a soils report to be accurate. Make sure the geotech knows you need LPile design criteria. It seems like they have a million different ways of providing lateral design values and an allowable passive pressure won't cut it for what you want to do.
RE: Angle Measurement
See the attached paper on pole foundations.